F39 PHS DISCUSSION
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:37 am
Hi all, I thought the discussion developing between Brian and me in the Boom Brake thread was getting a little off topic so I though I would start this one and also have a go at up loading a couple of photos. First photo is Fyne Spirit at anchor in Marlborouugh Sounds NZ, second is me and the admiral (Jane) sailing of Banks Peninsula, and the third was taken in Cook Strait - sailing like a witch - we hit 11.5 knots surfing that day!
[quote]Hi Mike, Michel, etc
Mike, I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier to your various points but my wife and I were busy (fiinally) shifting Paradox from Plymouth to Brighton. What was supposed to be a quick trip turned into a mini-vacation with three nights at anchor in Dartmouth while fog sorted itself out, a couple of nights in the new 2012 Olympic marina in Portland Harbour while strong westerlies damped down (things kept breaking so I was following a policy of 'prudence') and a couple of nights anchored off Poole and the Isle of Wight. We had a couple of days of motoring into light easterlies, and a couple of days of downwind stuff in 10-15 knots. We much enjoyed the boat's performance although, being an 88 build, various things broke or were logged as needing refurbing.
We needed to get the alternator fixed before the trip and replaced the defunct TWC charger with an Adverc which seems to do a fine job of charging the four batteries. The mains charger was bringing them up to around 650 amps but the Adverc gets them up to 720 or so. The fridge has never worked so we used ice. There was a disintegrating cable between the start switch and the starter motor and the starter relay fell apart when touched. The gas system was condemned and replaced. So we've got a good few jobs done already.
Really impresed with the schooner rig - she sails like a witch, as Ian Tew who wrote the books 'Sailing In Grandfather's Wake' about his circumnavigation in a PHS39 says. Also handles superbly under power and the Maxprop (folding) is great in astern. Bit concerend about the Perkins Prima 50 which ran at 80 degrees at 1200 revs, 90 degrees at 1600 and 100 degrees at 1800. Kind of exopected it to settle at 90 whatever the revs?
So overall we are really pleased with our purchase, and very pleased too to be in touch with you so we can bounce ideas around.
You asked how the boombrake is set up. Now that I've used this 'Dutchman Boom Brake' I must say I'm impressed (this is on the main boom). The line is fixed to the port toerail about 18 inches aft of the mast (previous owner's installation). It goes up to the brake which is attached just forward of the kicker fitting (they say you can remove the kicker but I didn't tho' now think I could), two turns round the kind of 'Archimedes screw' on the brake (tried the max 3 but that was too much for the conditions) then down to a block in a similar position on the starboard toerail, then on to a 'handy billy' on the starboard quarter. There's a jammer on the bottom block of the billy but I found it better to use the aft cleat. I was wary of the device at first and avoided gybing, then thought what the heck, ignored the sheet, ducked and watched the main stay upwind. I then took the tension ever so slowly off the billy and was able to control the swing of the boom with ease. This was only in 10-12 knots so it remains to be seen how it functions in heavier conditions. But first impressions are good. The manufacturers say that instead of loosening the billy you can simply pull down on the sheet to auto-ease the friction in the brake. Seemed to make more sense to keep out of the way of the sheet and use the brake's own lines.
I reckon it would be good to have one on the foresail too, probably set up quite loosely, because as you say the foresail does tend to feather nicely once it's swung so far. Each brake would then have three functions - kicker, brake and preventer - it certainly works as the latter.
The model we have is the original; current models come with a knob with which you can get even finer control over the friction - Google 'Dutchman Boom Brake' and you can read the manual. Other manufacturers make rival products; this one is simple and effective it seems.
Thanks for pointing out that snapping lug issue - I'll keep an eye out for cracks.
Paradox has 'stack packs' too. These seem to be more DIY than pro, slung under the booms rather than attached to the stacks, with the cheeks of the sailcovers crudely hung from the lazy jacks. The previous owner clearly let them take the weight of the booms and sails. I was fairly happy to do that on the foresail but not on the main, as the upper part looks a bit dodgy. I left the main topping lift attached and sailed with two reefs in the main to be sure the topping lift didn't rub the sail. It's a pretty heavy boom to be suspended from a dodgy lazy jack.
I think I said that up until Paradox we've sailed schooner junks on western hulls so we're used to well-set up lazy jacks that really can take the weight of the sail and boom. That's the direction I'll be heading I think, although I can see that they do tend to spoil the shape of the Freedom sail. One to think about. If set up properly and run back to the cockpit the windward lazy jack can take the weight and the leeard one can be eased off. Works for junks anyway.
Some kind of stainless hoop over the helmsman's head is possibly a must too. This is pretty standard in western junks to keep the sheet away from the helmsman. Having seen the sheet whip across at what is a pretty low level before I got the brake working, I see it as a real danger. Seems daft to invest in expensive safety gear and ignore this very real hazard.
Regarding terminology, we're schooners, so I think foresail and mainsail is the way to go. To me only a ketch gets a mizzen.
Great to have an electric winch for the sails and another on the anchor - luxury after years of hauling both by hand. Great autopilot too - B & G Helmstar - didn't get to try the staysail or the Hydrovane. The Yeoman Chart Plotter was brilliant. i was thinking of replacing it with a modern chartplotter but having a GPS mouse on a real paper chart is so much better.
Keep in touch,
Brian Kerslake
'Paradox' F39 PHS (1988)
Brighton UK
[quote]
_________________
F39 PHS 'Paradox'
Currently in Plymouth (UK) prior to moving to Brighton (UK)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:24 pm
Online
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:41 pm
Posts: 15
Hi Brian, great to hear from you and to hear about Paradox. You covered a lot of ground in your post and I will respond when I have a bit more time. Your engine temp is a concern though, it should be no more than 90. I would suggest a quick visual check of the raw water discharge at the exhaust, and if it looks like a reasonable flow, check thermostat, then heat exchanger tubes. Something must be disrupting the flow of either FW or Sw somewhere. The other possibility/concern may be propeller pitch. The M50 develops its full power at 3000 rpm and the prop should be pitched to allow this to happen. For us this gives cruising revs of 2000 -2500 -5.5-7.0 knots depending on conditions. If she was seriously overpitched (say) limiting revs to 2000 rpm max, then the engine will be seriously overloaded as you approach those rpm and might overheat. Typically their would be quite a bit of black smoke too. With the Maxi-prop that could well be fixed by taking off a bit of pitch.
BTW I used to live in Shoreham (Old Fort Road) in the 1960s. Do you reach your berth through the Adur river mouth and the locks at the Brighton end? As I recall the tides were 24 feet and you could only come and go on the high tide. I will be in touch soon. Kind regards,
_________________
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand
I have copied across Brian's last post as a starting point.[quote]Hi Mike, Michel, etc
Mike, I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier to your various points but my wife and I were busy (fiinally) shifting Paradox from Plymouth to Brighton. What was supposed to be a quick trip turned into a mini-vacation with three nights at anchor in Dartmouth while fog sorted itself out, a couple of nights in the new 2012 Olympic marina in Portland Harbour while strong westerlies damped down (things kept breaking so I was following a policy of 'prudence') and a couple of nights anchored off Poole and the Isle of Wight. We had a couple of days of motoring into light easterlies, and a couple of days of downwind stuff in 10-15 knots. We much enjoyed the boat's performance although, being an 88 build, various things broke or were logged as needing refurbing.
We needed to get the alternator fixed before the trip and replaced the defunct TWC charger with an Adverc which seems to do a fine job of charging the four batteries. The mains charger was bringing them up to around 650 amps but the Adverc gets them up to 720 or so. The fridge has never worked so we used ice. There was a disintegrating cable between the start switch and the starter motor and the starter relay fell apart when touched. The gas system was condemned and replaced. So we've got a good few jobs done already.
Really impresed with the schooner rig - she sails like a witch, as Ian Tew who wrote the books 'Sailing In Grandfather's Wake' about his circumnavigation in a PHS39 says. Also handles superbly under power and the Maxprop (folding) is great in astern. Bit concerend about the Perkins Prima 50 which ran at 80 degrees at 1200 revs, 90 degrees at 1600 and 100 degrees at 1800. Kind of exopected it to settle at 90 whatever the revs?
So overall we are really pleased with our purchase, and very pleased too to be in touch with you so we can bounce ideas around.
You asked how the boombrake is set up. Now that I've used this 'Dutchman Boom Brake' I must say I'm impressed (this is on the main boom). The line is fixed to the port toerail about 18 inches aft of the mast (previous owner's installation). It goes up to the brake which is attached just forward of the kicker fitting (they say you can remove the kicker but I didn't tho' now think I could), two turns round the kind of 'Archimedes screw' on the brake (tried the max 3 but that was too much for the conditions) then down to a block in a similar position on the starboard toerail, then on to a 'handy billy' on the starboard quarter. There's a jammer on the bottom block of the billy but I found it better to use the aft cleat. I was wary of the device at first and avoided gybing, then thought what the heck, ignored the sheet, ducked and watched the main stay upwind. I then took the tension ever so slowly off the billy and was able to control the swing of the boom with ease. This was only in 10-12 knots so it remains to be seen how it functions in heavier conditions. But first impressions are good. The manufacturers say that instead of loosening the billy you can simply pull down on the sheet to auto-ease the friction in the brake. Seemed to make more sense to keep out of the way of the sheet and use the brake's own lines.
I reckon it would be good to have one on the foresail too, probably set up quite loosely, because as you say the foresail does tend to feather nicely once it's swung so far. Each brake would then have three functions - kicker, brake and preventer - it certainly works as the latter.
The model we have is the original; current models come with a knob with which you can get even finer control over the friction - Google 'Dutchman Boom Brake' and you can read the manual. Other manufacturers make rival products; this one is simple and effective it seems.
Thanks for pointing out that snapping lug issue - I'll keep an eye out for cracks.
Paradox has 'stack packs' too. These seem to be more DIY than pro, slung under the booms rather than attached to the stacks, with the cheeks of the sailcovers crudely hung from the lazy jacks. The previous owner clearly let them take the weight of the booms and sails. I was fairly happy to do that on the foresail but not on the main, as the upper part looks a bit dodgy. I left the main topping lift attached and sailed with two reefs in the main to be sure the topping lift didn't rub the sail. It's a pretty heavy boom to be suspended from a dodgy lazy jack.
I think I said that up until Paradox we've sailed schooner junks on western hulls so we're used to well-set up lazy jacks that really can take the weight of the sail and boom. That's the direction I'll be heading I think, although I can see that they do tend to spoil the shape of the Freedom sail. One to think about. If set up properly and run back to the cockpit the windward lazy jack can take the weight and the leeard one can be eased off. Works for junks anyway.
Some kind of stainless hoop over the helmsman's head is possibly a must too. This is pretty standard in western junks to keep the sheet away from the helmsman. Having seen the sheet whip across at what is a pretty low level before I got the brake working, I see it as a real danger. Seems daft to invest in expensive safety gear and ignore this very real hazard.
Regarding terminology, we're schooners, so I think foresail and mainsail is the way to go. To me only a ketch gets a mizzen.
Great to have an electric winch for the sails and another on the anchor - luxury after years of hauling both by hand. Great autopilot too - B & G Helmstar - didn't get to try the staysail or the Hydrovane. The Yeoman Chart Plotter was brilliant. i was thinking of replacing it with a modern chartplotter but having a GPS mouse on a real paper chart is so much better.
Keep in touch,
Brian Kerslake
'Paradox' F39 PHS (1988)
Brighton UK
[quote]
_________________
F39 PHS 'Paradox'
Currently in Plymouth (UK) prior to moving to Brighton (UK)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:24 pm
Online
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:41 pm
Posts: 15
Hi Brian, great to hear from you and to hear about Paradox. You covered a lot of ground in your post and I will respond when I have a bit more time. Your engine temp is a concern though, it should be no more than 90. I would suggest a quick visual check of the raw water discharge at the exhaust, and if it looks like a reasonable flow, check thermostat, then heat exchanger tubes. Something must be disrupting the flow of either FW or Sw somewhere. The other possibility/concern may be propeller pitch. The M50 develops its full power at 3000 rpm and the prop should be pitched to allow this to happen. For us this gives cruising revs of 2000 -2500 -5.5-7.0 knots depending on conditions. If she was seriously overpitched (say) limiting revs to 2000 rpm max, then the engine will be seriously overloaded as you approach those rpm and might overheat. Typically their would be quite a bit of black smoke too. With the Maxi-prop that could well be fixed by taking off a bit of pitch.
BTW I used to live in Shoreham (Old Fort Road) in the 1960s. Do you reach your berth through the Adur river mouth and the locks at the Brighton end? As I recall the tides were 24 feet and you could only come and go on the high tide. I will be in touch soon. Kind regards,
_________________
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand