Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Boat handling, ideas, questions...
User avatar
Hans
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am
Location: Deventer, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

I only change tension on the outhaul while depowering the main, it's almost impossible to do otherwise.
Changing sailshape by stretching either luff or foot is built in by the sailmaker. If you're only applying handpower
(also in a complete windless sail) you're not completely using the trimpossibilities which are there, in my opinion.
Give it a try; windless day in harbour; hoist the main and put an extra line on the outhaul lead to a winch.
Put some power on it and see what your sail does. Another question is: is it worth the extra hassle?
For me it is.

regards hans
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

Mike Holibar
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:41 am

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Mike Holibar »

Hans wrote:Mike,


To see whether your sails are capable of flattening enough; put outhaul on a winch and tighten. Look at the sail while doing so: is only the lower third portion of the sail flattening or does it so evenly along the whole length of the mast? If upper and middle portion are not flattening enough while lower third is: worn out or wrongly designed.

Regards, Hans
Thanks Hans, I will give that a try. The sails are certainly flatter when reefed and it appears to me the belly is in the lower third of the sail. The outhaul is a light double purchase line running down the cetre of the boom. To apply tension I usually hank it to a reefing line which runs to the winch. The sails are not new but in reasonable order. The eyes water at the prospect of replacing them.

Regards, Mike.
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand

User avatar
Hans
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am
Location: Deventer, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Mike,

It sounds like your sails are probably OK, keep you eyes dry for the moment. But give it a try anyway,

good luck, Hans
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

TomBianca
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by TomBianca »

Greetings All, this string is of special interest to us as we are new to the site, Freedoms and owners of Die Walkure, a Freedom 45 HN 27.

During mid November '11 we made a delivery sail from Buzzards Bay, MA to the lower Chesapeake (Deltaville) offshore in blustery conditions. Die Walkure is set up today with a Quantum main and 90% Quantum self-tacking jib -both in good condition minus some mildew.

We have concluded in over 25 knots we need:

1. A deep 3rd reef in the main in over 25 kts. Especially as aproaching 35knots. The first reef seems of little use.

2. A winch for outhaul to flatten main.

3. A cunningham too.

4. To re-arrange bimini aft end to allow full mainsheet tensioning-or take a wedge out of main foot to raise main clew.

5. In over 25kts, running backstays to calm/stabilize the mast in significant seas. Can anyone advise the mast attachment design and arrangement successfully used for running backs?

6. In under 12 knots of wind the self tending 90% jib keeps the 45 from reaching her sailing potential, in my opinion. Has anyone fitted genoa tracks, cars and headsail sheet winches, for 110-120 overlapping head sail ? If so any issues? We do undertand the Freedom concept, but feel some extra performance at times would be enjoyable.

7. Does increasing the J by extending a bow sprit reduce weather helm, in general?

And finally, is there a building consensus or conclussion as to which upgrades produce the most bang for the buck! We intend to sail locally in Cheaspeake and offshore.

Thanks in advance for your consideration and comments, Tom

User avatar
Hans
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am
Location: Deventer, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Hello Tom,

Welcome to the forum. We Freedom sailors are lucky Geoff created the forum. You’ll find a wealth of info here about Freedoms.

I completely agree with you on the first three points. I had already a winch on the boom for the outhaul. Yard is making a lead for the cunningham to a winch this winter. My experience with our 45 so far:

Our 45 came with running backstays made of spectra. I changed them for nylon ones which do stretch, the spectra ones didn't; resulting in ‘jerking’ stops of mast top movement. Broke the blocks which had a working load of more then one ton. Nylon lines are working much better. They are attached to the mast where the headstay is attached. Hardware was made by Paul Dennis, he can help you there. On deck heavy duty padeyes near the cockpit.

In a running sea esp. with opposing steep waves I found the mast movement considerable. Also inverting. ( bending forward instead of backwards) ruining mainsailshape and creating of lot of back-winding in the main. It happens when the jib picks up a gust and pulls mast top sideways/ forward or/and when the boat hits an opposing wave, suddenly slowing the boat. I filmed this and showed it to my sailmaker. He explained me that the mast supports the mainsail but also that the mainsail shape in return supports the mast. He studied the mast movement and made two 1:15 models of a new mainsail using a tapered stiff batten as ‘mast’. The one with a flat entry and little depth in the chord, supported the mast best; when bending the ‘mast’ sideways it was difficult to bend it also forward. The deeper model with a normal entry did’nt support the mast that well; it prevented inverting when there was no sidebending, but with a little sidebending it inverted quitye easily. My new mainsail was made accordingly to the first model. I am very pleased with it as I described earlier.

I thought about genoa tracks and headsail sheet winches, I have seen them on other Freedoms (40/40 and 45). Owners seemed very pleased with them. I didn't change to this config because I wanted the Freedom for lack of hassle with winches and changing sheets while tacking, in the first place! Partly while I sail duo- or single handed. I have the camberspar setup. I like just to tack into the harbor or to the mooring where others have dropped their sails outside and have to motor in. The camberspar gives also the possibility to sail ‘wing a wing’ not only downwind but also broad reaching almost to beam reach! I am still surprised to notice how much power the camberspar jib generates while she is flown before/ outside the headstay. While reaching in winds less then 12 knots I set a flying ‘code zero’ on longer stretches. This gives me more the enough extra power.
Bringing the headstay and jib forward does certainly reduce weather helm.

Upgrades.. well I think it’s rather a personal choice what you to improve or change. When you’ve decided on that you’ll find probably your info here. When I had to decide on new batteries I found the recent info on batteries, alternators and charging info quite helpful.

Happy sailing with Die Walkure.
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

Craig
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:44 pm

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Craig »

Hans,
Who made your new sails?

User avatar
Hans
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:28 am
Location: Deventer, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by Hans »

Hi Craig,
Sail were made by Kooij Sails, Haarlem The Netherlands, one man company owned by Arjen Kooij. In 2005 he sailed an afternoon with my F38. Studied mast bending and movement and made a new main for her. The 45 he had to do with a film, boat was In Caribbean. He is the specialist for surfboardsails, cata- and trimaran sails.

Hans
Hans Hansen, Makkum,The Netherlands.
Freedom 45AC #47 "Scherezade".

TomBianca
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:58 pm

Re: Weather helm in one mast Freedom

Post by TomBianca »

Greetings Hans, thank you for the warm welcome. Your description of the mast bending/oscillations and backing upper main section was exactly our experience a few weeks back during our offshore recent passage south in 30+kts under double reefed main with opposing seas - your sailmaker must be commended for excellent research and analysis. I am not sure our sailmakers on this side would take the time for such an in depth examination of the issue.

Yes, we must make our priorites for fine tuning "Die Walkure" and enjoy our sailing in the meantime! Best Regards, Tom, Die Walkurie 45cc #24, Deltaville, VA

Post Reply