F21 vs F25?

Boat handling, ideas, questions...
peaceandfreedom
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: F33 CK & F38 CK Milford ct

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by peaceandfreedom »

Hello RoyalBlue,

Among the Freedom sailboats,for the type of sailing and trailering you describe I agree the shoal draft version of the F21 is your best option. Preferably one with a tabernacle mast. Fin keel F21's and F25 can be trailer launched but I do not think this is an exercise that you want to repeat more than absolutely necessary.

I own two F25's, one wing mast and one round mast. I trailer my boats but have them crane launched because my trailer is not a float off model. Do not be intimidated by the stepping of the mast. Inspired by UK F21 A-Frame, I made a 20' aluminum A-frame to step and un-step my mast. I can perform the entire operation by myself, and the frame paid for itself after the first use. My wing mast weighs about 185lbs while the round mast is 160lbs.
Size wise the F25 is at least 50% bigger in the cabin, so creature comfort is a lot better in the F25. I also prefer the inboard diesels over outboards.
Keep in mind that for day sails, launching, rigging, retrieving, and unrigging will take a considerable amount of time out of your day.
You might want to consider starting with a smaller boat if you really want to trailer launch frequently. Then when you are ready to upgrade to a F25 you can buy my round mast F25, she's on the marked right now. She's a 1984 model with a yanmar 1gm10 with only 170 hours.

Happy sailing

Jim D

User avatar
Castaway
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: Lerwick, Shetland Isles

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by Castaway »

I stepped the mast this morning; with the help of a friend, and a modest mast crane, it took about 20 minutes. I have one of the few UK F21's with a TP carbon fibre mast, which is less than 2/3 the weight of the alloy spar, which makes the whole thing easier. I can actually lift it off the ground unaided, but would not like to try the sheerlegs scheme you found with the boat in the water, since it has considerable rotational momentum and the boat is quite tender.

Thanks for the note about 'Skeba'; I have sailed in Finland, but my command of the language is limited to "kipis".

Good luck with your choice.

Regards,
Gerald Freshwater,
s/y 'Castaway', (UK F35 cat ketch, centreboard, 1987)
Lerwick Boating Club
Shetland Isles, Scotland

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

peaceandfreedom wrote:Among the Freedom sailboats,for the type of sailing and trailering you describe I agree the shoal draft version of the F21 is your best option. Preferably one with a tabernacle mast. Fin keel F21's and F25 can be trailer launched but I do not think this is an exercise that you want to repeat more than absolutely necessary.
Well, I'm not receiving the replies I was hoping for--that lots of F25 owners regularly ramp-launch their boats with ease. That said, I would rather get the truth now before I make my decisions. I can't thank all of you enough for the INVALUABLE advice you are giving me! This website is worth its weight in gold.

Is a tabernacle mast that much easier to use than your A-frame method? Right now I see two trailered shoal-keel F21s available online--one with a tabernacle mast and one without; of course the one without appears to be in better condition. So how much time and effort will the tabernacle save me?

Regarding the tabernacle mast, is that purely a factory option, or can the appropriate part be readily found to convert a fixed mast? And that brings up another big question I have--where does one find replacement parts for these boats? Obviously a marine supply store will have the generic stuff, but where would one find things like a tabernacle hinge for a carbon fiber mast with an exact proprietary dimension, or other F21 specific parts?

By the way, do you have a web ad/photos for your Freedom 25 that is for sale? Even if I end up getting the F21, it is great to window shop the really good stuff!

R. Bush
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:02 am
Location: Naramata, BC

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by R. Bush »

I have a F25 which I store on a trailer over the winter. I had a 12 ft. extension added to the trailer, and with that it is fairly easy to launch as long as you have access to a steep angled launch ramp. I have never even tried to get the boat out of the water using the trailer. You will need a crane to do that.

Stepping the mast is easy if your marina has any sort of mast crane. The mast isn't all that heavy - just akward to work with in the vertical position.

My truck has a 5000 lb. towing capacity and it is uphill all the way from my marina to the house. I have to stop at least once to let the transmission cool down during the trip. Unless you strip the boat bare before towing the boat and trailer are HEAVY! Towing one around would bet expensive, and driving fast certainly isn't an option.
F25 "Small Axe"
Okanagan Lake, BC

yarrow
Posts: 210
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 6:38 pm
Location: providence RI

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by yarrow »

I own a F25 and have a trailer for my boat I would not even consider dry sailing my F25 or a F21 I hate to steer a new freedom owner away but from ur messages sounds like u want an affordable boat which u can drive to the lake for an afternoon sail. Their are many other sailboats on the market with swing keels lighter rigs, and simplier rigging systems which would make a lot more sense. good luck and we are all looking forward to what u decide.
82' F25 winged spar, inboard diesel
95' B3 I-14
providence RI

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

R. Bush wrote:I have a F25 which I store on a trailer over the winter. I had a 12 ft. extension added to the trailer, and with that it is fairly easy to launch as long as you have access to a steep angled launch ramp. I have never even tried to get the boat out of the water using the trailer. You will need a crane to do that.

Stepping the mast is easy if your marina has any sort of mast crane. The mast isn't all that heavy - just akward to work with in the vertical position.

My truck has a 5000 lb. towing capacity and it is uphill all the way from my marina to the house. I have to stop at least once to let the transmission cool down during the trip. Unless you strip the boat bare before towing the boat and trailer are HEAVY! Towing one around would bet expensive, and driving fast certainly isn't an option.
All good info--thanks. I think that part of the issue is the towing capacity of the tow vehicle. My research shows the Freedom 25 does have a displacement of only 3500 lb., but with trailer and minimum gear (not even including beer coolers, etc.), the weight is approximately 5350 lbs. I think one would want a vehicle with a towing capacity far in excess of this, when considering engine, transmission, and most importantly braking ability, especially if hills and ramps are added to the mix. R. Bush, I think if I were you I might consider saving your transmission and renting a larger tow vehicle for the 2 days a year you need to tow your boat. If the truck is big enough, you could perhaps even consider ramp retrieval, eliminating the crane cost.

R. Bush
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:02 am
Location: Naramata, BC

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by R. Bush »

It is down hill to the launch, so for the one day a year I figure my truck can suck it up and make the trip if I take it easy and allow a cool down stop on the way home!

The issue with retrieval is that you need a steep ramp and the trailer has to be really submerged to get the keel to float over it. That makes it virtually impossible to see to line the boat up so that the keel stays centered over the keel rest as you tow the whole packabe up and out of the water. To even consider it you would have to have a trailer with a raised post and winch at the front which most don't have.

The trailer extension is also a must unless you don't mind having water sloshing thru the truck cab when you launch the boat.
F25 "Small Axe"
Okanagan Lake, BC

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

yarrow wrote:I own a F25 and have a trailer for my boat I would not even consider dry sailing my F25 or a F21 I hate to steer a new freedom owner away but from ur messages sounds like u want an affordable boat which u can drive to the lake for an afternoon sail. Their are many other sailboats on the market with swing keels lighter rigs, and simplier rigging systems which would make a lot more sense. good luck and we are all looking forward to what u decide.
Yarrow,
I am very much taking your and everybody else's comments into consideration--you are all giving me much more perspective than simple facts and numbers can suggest.

You are right, I would like to be able to take my boat to the lake for a day of sailing, but since I live 1-2 hours from some decent sized lakes (that I don't mind driving to on a regular basis), I don't really have a "home" lake, and I think it would be best if I kept my boat at my house and kept the option to explore multiple different lakes. But I also have dreams of sailing around the Florida Keys, which is only a day's drive away. Therefore, I don't want to end up with just a tiny dinghy.

I haven't completely made up my mind yet, but all the feedback is tending to lean me towards a shoal-keeled F21, ideally with a tabernacle mast. Apparently it can't get too much easier to rig (not to mention sail) a sailboat than that. All the benefits of a smaller, lighter, low center of gravity tow package, mean that it might not be too difficult to trailer and ramp launch on a regular basis. So, does anyone have direct experience with such a boat?

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

R. Bush wrote:The issue with retrieval is that you need a steep ramp and the trailer has to be really submerged to get the keel to float over it. That makes it virtually impossible to see to line the boat up so that the keel stays centered over the keel rest as you tow the whole packabe up and out of the water. To even consider it you would have to have a trailer with a raised post and winch at the front which most don't have.

The trailer extension is also a must unless you don't mind having water sloshing thru the truck cab when you launch the boat.
I found this photo-essay showing all the steps needed to launch and retrieve a full-keel sailboat from a ramp:
http://schrothfiberglass.com/Ramp%20launching.htm
It does look very straightforward, but I can't at all speak to how easy this is in real life, which is why I'm here.

I've also seen that some people modify their trailers with carpet-covered wood guides that easily guide the keel into the correct position, such as here:
http://sailtrailers.com/yahoo_site_admi ... _large.jpg

as well as the addition of visual guide posts which stick up very high, such as in this beautiful example:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/b ... 07632.html

It does seem like it's do-able, but having the right trailer setup would definitely be critical.

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