F21 vs F25?

Boat handling, ideas, questions...
RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. Quick background--I initially took a Red Cross basic sailing course as a teenager, and spent several summers enjoying many small rental boats on lake Chiemsee in West Germany. But then we moved back to the states, and life got in the way of sailing. I recently went sailing again for the first time in a few decades, and was bitten quite hard by the sailing bug. After much thought, my wife and I have decided to purchase a sailboat, and Freedoms are coming up to the top of my list. I was hoping to get some informed opinions on what might be the right boat for me.

As of now, both the Freedom 21 and Freedom 25 have appealing features. Would either of these be appropriate for a sailor's essentially first boat? One of my main considerations is that it be trailerable and ramp-launchable, as I would like to try sailing different places. Is the F25 (or even the F21 full-keel version) pushing the limits of this on a realistic basis?

So what do you think of the following boats for my purposes?

--F21 shoal keel model
strengths: lower CG for safer trailering; easiest to ramp-launch; smaller draft=less need for deep water (amongst other places, I would like to sail inland lakes, and one day the Florida keys).
weaknesses: Freedoms seem to have a reputation for poor upwind performance, and this is considered the worst performer of the bunch (I've seen some people online say "make sure you DON'T get this model"). I'm more interested in fun day/weekend cruising than any kind of racing, but going fast is fun, plus I don't want to be passed by paddle-boaters!

--F21 full keel model
strengths: best F21 performance; smaller, lighter, and slightly less draft than F25 makes for easier trailering/launching.
weaknesses: 4' of draft still makes for challenging ramp-launching; obviously smaller onboard accommodations than F25--could it handle 2 people for more than a single overnight?

--F25 round-mast model
strengths: better performance than F21; more room makes longer cruises possible (BTW, how long is reasonable on this size boat?); very attractive boat!
weaknesses: is it reasonable to try to ramp-launch this thing on a regular basis? (I would attempt the rope-extension method); bigger & heavier means costlier to trailer; is this too much boat for a beginner?

I know it must seem like a lot of questions. I've tried reading several books and online resources to find answers, but I sure could use some insight from people who have sailed (and especially trailered and ramp-launched) these boats. I would love to hear any and all comments and recommendations, including that I'm getting in way over my head and should just buy an old Sunfish. Thanks!


P.S. Is it really considered taboo and bad luck to change a boat's name? My wife & I got married (17 years ago tomorrow) on a yacht named Royal Blue, and I would really like to rename our new boat Royal Blue, as a romantic gesture to my wife. Would the old salts in the sailing community condemn me?

User avatar
Ereiss
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:32 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by Ereiss »

Welcome, RB. While I can add nothing to your F21 v F25 questions (I'm only experienced with F36 and F38), I can offer something on renaming.

I have never hesitated to rename but if you don't walk under ladders or stay on the 13th floor of a hotel here is a ceremony that is guaranteed to ward off the bad spirits if you do go that way:

http://www.bluewatersailing.com/documen ... remony.pdf

Best of luck
Ed Reiss
Being There
F38 - #154
out of Marion, MA

User avatar
Rick Simonds
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:49 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by Rick Simonds »

There are a lot of 21 and 25 owners who, I'm sure, will soon answer your real questions but, in the mean time, there's just a vague synapse or two firing on some dim memory in my brain, but I seem to remember something about "backing over the old name." Once you remove the old name from the transom you are supposed to immediately back the boat up a short distance to "back over the old name." I'm not sure what it does but I wouldn't risk ignoring it.

I assume you've already begun the search for the coin that you've going to put under the mast? A coin from the year the boat was built has the most reliable juju but, in your case, one from the year you were married would be every bit as effective.
___________________________

Rick
Tallahassee

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

Ereiss and Rick,
Thanks for the replies and renaming "requirements". This boating thing's going to be more fun than I thought! Fortunately on the requirement to sail backwards under sail, this appears to be one of the F21's specialty "tricks" (as seen in the ubiquitous youtube video). I assume the F25, having the same spinnaker setup, will do the same? I also just happen to collect silver dollars, so it appears that we're in good shape and at least my renaming concerns have been put to bed!

unfetteredalexandria
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:57 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by unfetteredalexandria »

Back to your original question...

My wife and I looked at both F21 and F25 a few years back, and ended up choosing the F25. Other than size, the only distinguishing differences I can recall are the fixed vs. portable head, and the steps down the companionway vs. just using the ice chest for the one step down.

I would say the main decider is where and how you plan to sail. When we first got the F25, we kept it on the upper Potomac River near Washington DC, and there were times I felt the smaller F21 would have served us better up there. We are now out on the Chesapeake, and there are times when I wish the F25 were a bit stiffer. If you plan to race, I think there are probably still opportunities to race one-design against other F21's if you're willing to trailer it around. You sometimes see a F25 for sale with a trailer, but I'd say they are about the limit of what is practical for this.

So, bottom line: if trailering and/or dry-sailing is important to you, I would go with the F21. If you plan to keep the boat in a slip and sail around one region, then F25.
1984 round-mast Freedom 25
Western Shore of the Chesapeake

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

Unfetteredalexandria,

You're probably right, but I guess I want both! I have no interest in racing, I would rather cruise in larger bodies of water, AND I plan on trailering without keeping the boat in a slip. So I guess my questions really boil down to: I really want an F25, so has anyone had any direct experience with trailering and ramp-launching one? I need to know whether the experience would be SO difficult that it would discourage me from using the boat. For what it's worth, I also plan on purchasing the tow vehicle to match the boat (i.e. I'll probably get a full-size used Ford F150 for the F25, or a used midsize Dodge Dakota for the F21), so the towing capacity shouldn't be the problem.

And then if it turns out the full-keel thing is the problem, does anyone have direct experience with the shoal-keel F21? Is it really AS BAD as I've heard for performance?

Anxiously awaiting replies from those with experience.

User avatar
moosemcclintock
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:09 am

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by moosemcclintock »

As I'm finding out with my F25, the problem you're going to have if you want to ramp launch is finding a place to get your rig stepped. One nice thing about the F21 is the option to have a tabernacle mast so you can put the rig up without a crane. The F25 mast is too heavy for this. Also, the boat is heavy, over 4000 lbs. without the trailer weight, it's not easy to pull around.

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

Moose,
Are you saying that the F25 mast is too heavy to step without a crane? About how much does it weigh? I saw on another thread where someone posted a picture of how they used a 20' home-made A-frame somehow (and I think the word "easy" was even attached to the description!), but it looked like there is a lot more to it than it first seems.

As far as the weight of the boat being a lot to tow around (I've read to expect approx. 5350lb actual tow weight), the tow vehicle I'm considering has a rated towing capacity of 9500lb. Given that I have little experience in this area, is there a point you're making that I'm missing, and I need to consider?

As always, I appreciate your input.

User avatar
Castaway
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:40 pm
Location: Lerwick, Shetland Isles

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by Castaway »

We have just towed our F21 back from Spain to Shetland (2000 miles + a couple of overnight ferry trips), with a medium sized European car. With a Jeep (which we used the other way), it was very easy, but the car was a bit light and short for the job. The boat is easy to launch, about 30 minutes this afternoon, but, having been married for 40 years, I need a crane to get the mast up. It sails well, and is good fun, but a bit small and light for anything longer than a short weekend. We have the UK twin lifting keel version, which is closer winded than our F33, but slams in any sort of sea. I don't know how it compares with a deep fin keel.

Personally, I would love to have a wing masted F25 for playing with, and it would certainly be a big enough boat for a few sleep-overs. Nothing less than a big 4x4 would do for towing. Launching is probably no more of a problem, if you can get the depth on a slipway. You will certainly need a crane for the mast.

Going to windward is very useful, but is not the best part of sailing: avoid it if you can! Our F21 is called "Skeba"; even the PO couldn't say what it means, and it's nothing like my wife's name, but I'm too idle to change it.

Good sailing!

[img]/Users/gerald/Desktop/skeba1.jpg[/img]

Gerald Freshwater
Gerald Freshwater,
s/y 'Castaway', (UK F35 cat ketch, centreboard, 1987)
Lerwick Boating Club
Shetland Isles, Scotland

RoyalBlue
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Re: F21 vs F25?

Post by RoyalBlue »

Gerald,
Thank you for the observations. I believe the UK version of the F21 has an aluminum mast that is much heavier than the US carbon fiber one, so the need for a crane might not be applicable to me. But your observations of space and sailing qualities are useful, and make me really want to see if I can make trailering a Freedom 25 work.

I did manage to find a photo sequence of a home-made hoist here (hoisting an aluminum mast on a Freedom 21): http://www.freedom21.info/F21%20Mast%20 ... %20_2_.pdf, which certainly looks doable, although I'll still need a lot more details.

By the way, I did a little research for you, and it appears Skeba's original owner was a music-lover, as "Skeba" is Finnish for "guitar." I hope you got her for a song, and she's been nothing but beautiful music for you!

Post Reply