My F32 Keel bolts look to be intentionally not tightened?

[mtryon]

I am in the process of buying a 1983 Freedom 32 hull #15. Before we hauled out today the surveyor and I noticed the nuts on the keel bolts are backed off and not tightened. They are backed off far enough that you can get your finger UNDER each bolt's washer!! The washers appear stuck to the bottom of the nuts but the nuts are not tightened down. And the very aft keel bolt is much taller than the others and sticks up about eight inches or so with the bonding wire attached to it. The aft keel bolt appears to have a tube of fiber glass or something around it below it's washer so you cant' feel the threads. And the aft keel bolts nut is about eight inches off the floor of the bilge sump. What the heck was that done for???? Maybe a radio ground or bonding stud??

Some history: This boat did hit some rocks at the very bottom leading edge and aft bottom of the trailing edge of the keel. Not serious damage there, and can be filled and faired easily. However, the bolts not being tightened are a mystery and I'm wondering if something serious is going on there. Does anyone know how the keel is fastened onto the keel stub on an F32?
Is this keel totally encapsulated in fiber glass and I'm being mislead because I can see lead visible on the bottom at the damaged areas?

Later today on haul out there was NO evidence of movement or any visible gap at the top of the keel where it meets the hull. I've read that Freedom used to fiberglass tape the top six inches or so to cover the keel to hull joint for cosmetic reasons. So maybe there is a gap there and I just can't see it? But then I'd think there would be some noticeable breaking of the fiberglass bond on this tape wrap and there is not. Except for the damage on the bottom edges of the keel it looks perfect (a few blisters on the sides of the keel) and there is no indication of any kind of movement. I'm really at a loss as to what is going on with this. Can anyone offer any knowledge about this type of keel fastenings? Should I just re-torque the bolts? Also, there is a couple of inches of water in the bilge sump but I don't know if the keel bolts are weeping or not. I'm at a loss as to whether I should worry about this or what is going on. The surveyor had never seen this either and we both scratched our heads on this one. Thanks in advance for any info...

[Michel]

I can't help you on the issue of the loose keel nuts.

About the long aft most bolt with the bonding wire: the only reason I can think of is that they used a long bolt to keep the bonding wire connection above sump water level at all times to prevent corrosion of the connection between bonding wire terminal and keel bolt.

[brico]

As Michel stated it is difficult to explain why would bolts be lose / not torqued. I've seen some horrible results of crevice corrosion eating up SS bolts which were submerged in sea water for prolonged period of time. I'll try and get some photographs of the boat I was looking at prior to buying my 1986 F36/38. Sine seeing that I became obssessed by keeping my bilges competely dry at all times. Fresh water is OK but any salt water over longer period can eat up bolts under the securing nut to the extent that the entire strength is lost. Once you see photos, you will understand. Anu signs of corrosion on keel bolts should be taken seriously, investigated and taken care off.

[bbarnewolt]

I also cannot explain your loose keel bolts.

I recently had my 1988 F36 keel/stub interface worked on by Paul Dennis at Warren River after some minor misadventures . While I don't know about an F32, the F36 had the keel epoxied onto the keel stub and the keel bolts provided additional mechanical attachment and were over engineered on the F36 (lucky for me). Some boats do have a fiberglass band at the keel/stub junction and it is indeed just cosmetic. Suffice to say that if there is any movement at the keel/stub joint, the fiberglass band will likely separate from the junction suggesting movement. The epoxy bond of the keel to the stub is remarkably strong. When I had work done on my keel, we had most of the keel nuts completely off and actually tried to induce movement- but couldn't. When we cleaned the joint, Paul did find a 1.5mm gap at the front of the keel extending about 18 inches aft where you could actually see daylight from one side to the other! Literally no epoxy at all in this area! After he was unsuccessful in getting the keel to move at all, he concluded that my gap was probably a result of poor factory workmanship and had been there for the past 23 years. He filled it with thinned epoxy, rebedded and torqued the keel nuts and at haul out this fall it looked pristine.

Another thing to consider. Sometimes the keel bolts are set in such a way that the threads do not extend far enough down for the nut to be adequately tightened, allowing the nut to back off. The cure for this is to create a thicker washer for the keel nut- which can be made from FRP.

Lastly, one way to test for a leak at the keel joint when the boat is on the hard is to fill the bilge to the brim with fresh water. Leave it that way for a few weeks and look for a leak outside the boat at the keel/stub junction.

Good luck!

Brien

F36/38
Mattapoisett, MA

[Michel]

An addition to Brien's suggestion to fill the bilge with water to test for leaks: Although it might give an indication, 1' of water in the bilge does not equal the 2' or 3' of water pressure when the boat is in the water. So if no leaks are found with 1' of water in the bilge, that's still no guarantee that the keel bolts don't leak.

Good luck

Michel

[GeoffSchultz]

An addition to Brien's suggestion to fill the bilge with water to test for leaks: Although it might give an indication, 1' of water in the bilge does not equal the 2' or 3' of water pressure when the boat is in the water. So if no leaks are found with 1' of water in the bilge, that's still no guarantee that the keel bolts don't leak. l

I will also point out that the keel is probably resting on a piece of wood and thus not hanging, so these test results would be questionable, at best. Of course, if it does leak...

-- Geoff

[mtryon]

Hey guys...thanks for all the replies and ideas. After further investigation and the haul out at the yard I'm not too worried about this. I was just super surprised to see a few of the keel bolt nuts backed off. I'll bet someone, (not too smart) was checking for oxygen starvation corrosion under the nuts/washers and didn't put them back. When we hauled a few days ago (for the below the waterline survey) there was ZERO indication of any keel movement whatsoever, so the other keel bolts, plus the Freedom "belly band" around the keel stub are doing their job. If indeed there is keel bolt corrosion I'm just going to go through the "sister" routine as there is plenty of space between old keel bolts to drill and tap for new ones. I'll also re-torque the old ones with tons of bedding compound as they will undoubtedly still have "some" holding power that is useful. I will also totally dry out the bilge and see if there is any weeping. The previous owner insists the bilge is completely dry and the water that I observed in there is from the shaft seal. (to be replaced).

The next item is the rudder damage. It was backed into rocks and there is a 4 inch gash on the bottom of the rear edge. It's opened up to the foam core and the rudder undoubtedly has sucked up a lot of water. Not too worried on that either. I've built rudders from scratch before so this one will just get dried out as best I can and repaired. Oh well.... As Rosanna Rosanna Dana (SNL) used to say; "It's always sumthin'... " Thanks again for everyone's thoughts...

[mtryon]

I can't help you on the issue of the loose keel nuts.

About the long aft most bolt with the bonding wire: the only reason I can think of is that they used a long bolt to keep the bonding wire connection above sump water level at all times to prevent corrosion of the connection between bonding wire terminal and keel bolt.

Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. If nobody else has this then it must have been done by a previous owner and may not be a keel bolt at all, but just a bolt drilled and tapped into the keel for bonding purposes---not a bad idea I guess.

[Rick Simonds]

I have read somewhere (I think the old F32 newsletter from decades ago) that Freedom did not install the keel bolts straight vertical in the F32's. They are installed into the keel "V"-ed out fore and aft and the hole drilled into the keel stub was not a straight cylindrical hole, it was an elongated slot. The keel and the keel stub were mated together and the slot was filled with epoxy and filler. Once the epoxy cured there was no way for the keel bolt to come back out of the hole. Also that meant that the keel was not just hanging on the nut itself, it was spread out over a longer length of the bolt. The bolt can't come out and nut itself is actually a bit redundant.

My 32's keel bolts are tight but there is a bit of space (1/16", maybe) around the edge of them. I think there is a bit of a pad built up under the nuts.