Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

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artieTwelve
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by artieTwelve »

Hello All,
I have just had an offer accepted on a Freedom 38. Yes, I am excited.

I had my surveyor stop by and do a quick "short survey" where he tapped the hull and went over the deck with his moisture meter. He then went below and looked at the major systems and general condition. All in all, he found the boat very clean and no show stopping problems. This is the same guy who basically talked me out of two previous boats due to condition. He'll do the full survey next week or so when the alignment of my broker/seller's broker/surveyor/yard travel lift are all sync.

I noticed a few things I would like to hear comments on:
1) The rudder shaft looks, well, enormous. Very wide. Is there a smaller diameter steel shaft in there or is the whole thing carbon fiber?

2) Are there any issues with delamination in the rudder? This was the only issue the surveyor found so far. It seemed to him that the fiberglass had pulled away from the rudder stock in some areas.

3) From my reading, the keel (4.5 foot version) is connected by keel bolts. I pulled up the floor boards and could not find anything that looked like a bolt head. Granted,the bilge had been filled with antifreeze to a depth of about 4 inches, but I got down there with a high power light and could not see a bolt head. Were some of these boats made with encapsulated keels? It's a 1990 vintage.
I'll get some better photo once it's pumped out for the survey.


I've been looking for my next boat for a while. This will be the third boat I've taken to survey in the last 2 years. The previous two were Tartan 37s. Nice boats, good sailors but the interior is small for 37 feet. The difference between the between the Tartan interior and the Freedom is like night and day. I've been living on board a Pearson Vanguard in Baltimore for the past 7 years. I love the boat but the time has come for a real galley. I didn't think of that before I moved on board, but now I think about it every time I buy another 8 dollar a pound salad at Whole Foods.

Thanks,

Lance Smith
Baltimore, MD

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sailmon
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:53 pm

Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by sailmon »

Congrats on your (almost) new boat. I hope the survey goes well. We've owned our 1991 F38 for about 7 years and plan to retire and go cruising in a few years (East Coast, Caribbean, etc). She's a great boat for living aboard. When we moved up from our 1987 F30, it was like going from camper cruising to a floating home... and the F30's interior volume is nothing to sneeze at.

The fat laminate tube is the rudder shaft. It is laminated to the rudder itself and leakage between the shaft and blade is very rare. No metal shaft inside. One of the great things about this design is that there is no internal skeleton to break away from a metal rudder shaft. if there is movement in the rudder it is usually from one of 3 sources:
1. The rudder has 2 stainless sleeves around the shaft that ride on 2 plastic rudder bearings (upper and lower - actually large bushings). These eventually wear out and need to be replaced. It's a bit of a pain in the neck to replace them - cutting out the old ones and epoxying in the new... but they are available and come with pretty good step-by-step instructions.
2. Slop or loose cables or loose components in the Edson Radial Drive steering system.
3. Third is the most daunting. While Freedom rudders are well known for great design and generally great construction, the top sleeve (not the upper bearing sleeve but a 3rd sleeve), which is gripped by the radial drive, sometimes works loose from the upper portion of the laminated shaft. This is not common - and is usually the result of builders defect. If your steering cables are properly tensioned and your wheel is locked - and you are able to rotate the rudder, chances are the upper sleeve is rotating inside the radial drive, OR the rudder shaft is rotating inside the sleeve. I know this because we lost the rudder on our F30 as a result of this defect. As I said, it was the result of very rare corner cutting by TPI. Guessing our rudder was built late on a Friday and the fiberglass shaft was a bit short. Instead of adding to it or just rebuilding the rudder, they attached the upper sleeve with the fiberglass shaft only fitting about 1/2 way up the sleeve - rather than all the way through it. They then poured resin on top to fill the upper part of the sleeve, where the upper shaft was absent. As a result, the bolt that goes through the radial drive and upper sleeve did not go through the fiberglass shaft. It took 16 years to work its way out - but after about a year's worth of strange and unexplained slippage in the steering system (center rudder mark on the steering wheel kept shifting) we went over a large wave... stern went up, rudder slipped out and rest was history. Thank goodness for TowBoat US. As I said, - very rare, but worth checking if the surveyor finds this kind of rotation.

Yes Freedom rudders can delaminate like any other brand. It can result from impact, water incursion, faulty original lay up. Not uncommon to have to rebuild a rudder blade after 20 years. Not terribly difficult or expensive (relatively speaking). As you already know from previous boats, BOAT is an acronym for Break Out Another Thousand...

Our 4 1/2 foot draft wing keel is external ballast, bolted to bottom of sump.If the boat you are looking at has a 4 1/2 foot draft modified fin (shoal draft) keel,, it is likely internal ballast - so no bolts.

Finally, if you want to see a recent review of the F38,, our boat (Her Diamond) was reviewed in the January/February 2014 edition of Good Old Boat magazine.

Best of luck with the survey. Glad to answer any questions,
Bob
Sailmon (Captain Bob Allenick)
S/V Her Diamond
1991 Freedom 38
Cleveland, OH

artieTwelve
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by artieTwelve »

Bob,
My fingers could not type fast enough to get the online version of Good Old Boats Jan/Feb issue. Man your boat looks sweet. I'm glad to find out I'm not completely clueless when it comes to searching for keel bolts and based on the information in the article, I do indeed have an encapsulated ballast. I will forward your comments the rudder structure to my surveyor. Due to weather and scheduling problems, I have to wait until 4/3 for the sea trial/survey.

Thanks again,

Lance Smith

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sailmon
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:53 pm

Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by sailmon »

Hi Lance,
Wondering how the F 38 survey went?
Sailmon (Captain Bob Allenick)
S/V Her Diamond
1991 Freedom 38
Cleveland, OH

artieTwelve
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by artieTwelve »

It went very well. The boat is clean and has been well cared for. The seller's broker was responsible for bending on the sails, but when I got there, they were still on deck, battens out. Once the boat was in the water, a group of guys from yacht services came down and tried to figure out how to put on the sails. They were, shall we say, confused. It took the a while, but they got it eventually. Meanwhile I was down below with the surveyor flipping switches, pulling up floor boards and anything else he needed while going through the boat. The only real defects are some of the snaps for the dodger are broken and the Harken bat cars (first generation, with the loose ball bearings) needed overhauling or replacement. There is a crack in the mast just above the collar for the boom. About half way around. My reading about mast cracks on this board has reduced my fear. The surveyor thinks it's not a big deal. He's going to contact someone in Annapolis who specializes in this stuff to ask about it.

Oddly enough, the only thing we couldn't find was a battery charger. There has to be one. There's a switch that says "Battery Charger" and when I throw it, the voltage jumps up to about 13.5. When it's off it drops to 12.3. I had the seller's broker call the owner and he didn't know where it was. To my mind, that's one more bit of proof to my theory of a lightly used boat. So the next call was to the yard that maintains the boat and their yard guy said he'd never seen and never bothered looking because it always worked. The only two places I can think of are 1) under the shelf the batteries sit on (not sure if I can get in there) or 2) under the starboard settee with the water tank. That would be an odd place for it. I'm going down tomorrow a cordless drill and some Phillips head bits to solve this once and for all.

As for the sea trial, we had light winds yet still cracked off 5 - 6 knots during the gusts. My broker, an older guy with years of cruising experience said he'd never sailed on a Freedom, but he'd been passed by them a lot. For what wind we had, she sailed wonderfully. True to form, raising the main was a real work out. My first major investment will be a Tides Strong track and some kind of Stack Pack/Mack Pack system. I think I'm going to experiment with electric drills, both with and without cords and see how that works.

All in all, it looks like a done deal. We move on to the paperwork phase on Monday. Here is the yachtworld listing:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Fr ... ted-States
She looks a lot better in real life that she does in those photos.

As I said before: Yes, I am excited.

Lance Smith
Baltimore, MD
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sailmon
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Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by sailmon »

Congrats. They are really great boats. I put a strong fast track on mine last year and it has helped a bit with raising the sail. It falls with virtually no resistance at all. Challenge with getting the main up is that it is very large and heavy. There is also significant loading against the mast by the full battens. I think you are on the right track with the drill. On my Tanzer 25, I could get the main all the way up by hand. On our Freedom 30, I could get it 7/8 of the way up by hand - finishing with winch. On our F38 I can only get it up about halfway by hand - finishing off by winch. Even finishing by winch, the last 1/3 is a pretty good workout. I've heard that people have been very happy with the Milwaukee rechargeable right angle drill with 1/2 inch chuck. Not sure if it is 18 or 24 volts - but I'm told it will do 2 raisings on a charge. One challenge with lazy jacks is getting boom directly into the wind so battens don't hang up on lazy jacks.

I don't believe there is anything under the battery shelf. Even if someone found a way to open up the sealed compartment, I don't think there would be enough ventilation to keep the charger from overheating. I found the charger on my boat in the aft-most seat cushion back storage compartment on the starboard side - just forward of the nav. It was screwed to the underside of the top of the compartment... really a dumb place to put it. Again, limited ventilation, and you can't see LEDs or check wiring connections. You might also finds it mounted in the "wet locker" just aft of the nav. I bought a Xantrex true charge which is pretty compact. I mounted it in the nav on the aft bulkhead. It's cooling fan makes a little white noise - which doesn't bother us - and it is easy to keep an eye on. Another approach to finding your charger is to start at the batteries and look for the thinner wires connected to the terminals. Follow them and you should eventually arrive at the charger.
Sailmon (Captain Bob Allenick)
S/V Her Diamond
1991 Freedom 38
Cleveland, OH

artieTwelve
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Re: Taking a Freedom 38 to survey

Post by artieTwelve »

It's a done deal. I have the boat, "Windhover" (a type of egret, or perhaps named after this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Windhover). I may change name when I repaint the boat. Last Saturday we moved her up from Annapolis to Baltimore. I'm in to process of moving all my stuff from one boat to the next. BTW, in a previous post, I was wondering where the battery charger was. Found it. Mounted under the top of the cabinet behind the settee next to the chart table. The stereo is also there and it's in front. Still, I have no idea why I didn't see it before, other than the fact that it's in the back and totally black.

So here's my first question as an owner: How do you know when the holding tank is full? This is an integrated tank, right? I can't see how it could be anything else. I've always had composting heads on my previous boats. I'm debating putting one on the freedom. It would be an awkward fit. That, and the head that's in there now is a nice unit. I doubt it's original. Still, 13 gallons is kind of small. I've heard all kinds of stories about over filled tanks backing up into the vent line and such. Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.

Lastly, I was down in Annapolis today and talked to the UK sail rep. Their version of the stack pack, called a lazy cradle is normally runs about $96 a foot. For the 16.6 boom on the 36/38, that's $1593. But the boat show price is 25% off. About $1193. Just in case any one is interested. Here's the link: http://www.uksailmakers.com/Sails/Sail- ... radle.html

Thanks,
Lance Smith
S/V Windhover
Baltimore, MD

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