self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

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self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby VeloFellow » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:49 pm

Has anyone modified their rudder with a trim tab or added a wind vane self steering system on a barn door rudder Freedom?
Mike
s/v Clave'
1981Freedom 28
Currently sailing Tampa Bay
Buit by Fairways Marine Hamble England
cat ketch, centerboard , wishbone booms, tides track slides
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby AlanK » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:35 pm

On my F-33 I installed a Capehorn wind vane (and previously a Voyager). Also considered a sailomat and discussed the same arrangement them as well.
The unusual arrangement is that I ran the steering lines from the vane rudder through blocks wide on the transom and back to the rudder. So no lines going to the cockpit/wheel. Just the ends of both lines to cam cleats at the top of the transom to engage and release the vane steering control by slacking the lines to the rudder.
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby VeloFellow » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:07 pm

Thanks for your reply. Do you happen to have any photos?

I found a photo of a Freedom 33 set up on a boat with home port winchester ma on the Cape Horn site.
Looks like it works well.


mike
Clave'
1981 Freedom 28 CK CB
Mike
s/v Clave'
1981Freedom 28
Currently sailing Tampa Bay
Buit by Fairways Marine Hamble England
cat ketch, centerboard , wishbone booms, tides track slides
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby AlanK » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:17 pm

My pictures exceed the size this board allows so I can't post them. One thing to note about the Cape Horn for an F-33 is that the standard Capehorn has a vertical oar. Due to the slope aft of the F-33 rudder and my desire to keep the unit close to the transom rather then have tubing 3 feet off the back they slanted the rudder shaft and used their largest oar to ensure power. I don't recall any extra charge for the 15 degree or custom slant.
This makes the unit quite compact on the stern. I can provide more information if you get serious about the this type of arrangement directly to the rudder either by direct email or phone if you provide your contact info.
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby seadago » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:43 pm

Hi everyone

I know I'm reviving an old thread, but... I am in the process of choosing a self steering system for my boat. I have a Freedom 30 cat ketch (Hoyt) with wheel steering. This means: mizzen boom overhanging the transom by over a foot, and a large barn door rudder hanging from the transom.

In consequence, options are restricted:

1) Expert consensus gathered thus far (in paper, so ahead of any trials) is that any system but a servo-pendulum will not be strong enough to overcome the resistance/fiction on the steering wheel gears.

2) whatever I put on the transom needs to be mounted considerably off the centre line to avoid the rudder radius. If closer to the centre line, it needs to sit so far aft as to be unreachable from the cockpit.

Seems a no-win situation and I am currently stuck. :( I would greatly appreciate input from cat ketch owners that encountered the same problem

Cheers
Rafael
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby gar » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:50 pm

Hi Rafael,
I had a Fairways freedom 35 with a Sailomat windvane mounted on a bracket about 3 feet from the transom on the centreline.This was an independent unit which had its own pendulum oar and separate steering oar and was well clear of the mizzen wishbone boom and barn door rudder.A continuous line wound around the windvane base to a small wheel on the transom allowed easy adjustment of the windvane angle.The main rudder was locked off with a rubber bungee amidships or maybe a spoke or two of helm.The bracket was about inch and a half welded aluminium tube. This steered us superbly all the way around the world over 4 years.
If you look up "freedom 35 junk rig" you will see an image of our exact boat with the gear mounted. When we sold the boat the new owner converted to Junk rig . Also there is an image of another freedom 35 'Green Flash" with an Aries gear mounted in similar fashion.
I currently sail a Freedom 44 with a Monitor gear mounted about 2 feet from the transom. This has a pendulum oar which turns the ships wheel. The rudder is Skeg mounted so isn't as tough to turn. The Monitor gear is all stainless steel and is amazingly light and easy to remove for wintering and would easily be mounted 3 feet or more from the transom.

Best regards
Gar
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby seadago » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:04 am

gar wrote:Hi Rafael,
I had a Fairways freedom 35 with a Sailomat windvane mounted on a bracket about 3 feet from the transom on the centreline.This was an independent unit which had its own pendulum oar and separate steering oar and was well clear of the mizzen wishbone boom and barn door rudder.A continuous line wound around the windvane base to a small wheel on the transom allowed easy adjustment of the windvane angle.The main rudder was locked off with a rubber bungee amidships or maybe a spoke or two of helm.The bracket was about inch and a half welded aluminium tube. This steered us superbly all the way around the world over 4 years.
If you look up "freedom 35 junk rig" you will see an image of our exact boat with the gear mounted. When we sold the boat the new owner converted to Junk rig . Also there is an image of another freedom 35 'Green Flash" with an Aries gear mounted in similar fashion.
I currently sail a Freedom 44 with a Monitor gear mounted about 2 feet from the transom. This has a pendulum oar which turns the ships wheel. The rudder is Skeg mounted so isn't as tough to turn. The Monitor gear is all stainless steel and is amazingly light and easy to remove for wintering and would easily be mounted 3 feet or more from the transom.

Best regards
Gar


Hi Gar

many thanks for your input, very valuable.

I can't find the pictures. Can you pls send me an URL? Thanks!

Rafa
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby marno » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:58 am

Hi Rafael,

I had a Fleming on my 39 Express which worked well once the boat was properly balanced. We had to jump over the lines that led to the wheel which shrank our cockpit a little, but wasn't too much of a bother.

Have you looked at putting a trim tab on your main rudder? It looks to me as though that would be a much simpler system (I like simple :) ) You could always add a small tiller pilot to it for those times when you have to motor.

Regards

Marno
Marno

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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby AlanK » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:55 am

ON my freedom 33 (sold a few years ago I went through 2 vanes. The second one was a superior arrangement and vane. It was mounted so that the lines from the vane went to blocks on the transom and directly back to the rudder. No lines to the cockpit. Worked more like a vane to tiller then to wheel which is generally better. The vane has to be of a geometry that will clear the angled outboard rudder or else a large structure or swim platform mount will be needed. I didnt want the extra weight and bulkiness. I looked mainly at the sailomat and Capehorn for theses reason and the fact they had experience with this and knew the correct angles and ratios for the correct power ratio of the lines etc for performance. I chose the Capehorn. Normally the cape horn oar does not angle aft but they made it for me so it did and used a large oar to make up for the power loss vs the vertical oar. No extra charge and gave me the exact angles for mounting the attachment point etc. I initially installed a temporary attachment that I could move to adjust the ratios but generally what they specified was the best compromise so I didnt bother with the adjustable mount in the end and just put fixed attachment point through the rudder (rod and eyebolts). Was surprised how well it worked in light air and in general. Didnt have much experience in really heat weather but maybe the new owner has and can comment. I did find with the Cape Horn over time there can be some degradation. depending on wear or friction in the mechanism but the manufacturer is ver helpful and will deal with ay issues. Note normally the Cape Horn mounts through the transom with lines directly to the rudder quadrant but with an outboard rudder this will not work. Pic without the oar on is attached. Its also possible to rig a small tiller pilot on the transom to the wind vane to use when motoring.
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IMG_1332.JPG
Cape horn installation on freedom 33 barn door rudder
IMG_1332.JPG (59.58 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
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Re: self steering vanes on barn door rudder boats?

Postby Castaway » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:29 am

We have a WindPilot Pacific on our F35 CK, fitted by the PO. It works well, has lasted about 20 years and uses a vane/servo system to turn the wheel via lines running under the cockpit sole, so it doesn't get in the way when rigged. It has taken us across the North Sea a few times, with minimal attention. It can also be set up to use a Tiller Pilot type, push-pull, electric autohelm, which is much more powerful than the wheel mounted Autohelm 4000 because of the servo-rudder.

There are pictures of it on the WindPilot website. Peter Furth still supplies parts from Germany if needed for maintenance.
Gerald Freshwater,
s/y 'Castaway', (UK F35 cat ketch)
Lerwick Boating Club
Shetland Isles, Scotland
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