help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Engines, Drive trains, Propellers, Steering, Ground Tackle and other mechanical system

Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:47 am

I'm not sure what all that means, yet
but I am relieved that the shim pack *appears* to be internal to the gear case, and not immediately visible on where the IP mounts to the block
because where the IP mounts to the block looks like there are *zero* shims of any kind
and that led me to believe that timing was advanced as far as possible
which would make advancing it any further, to clear up banging and white smoke, impossible
thankfully, because shims are internal, and I don't know how many are in there yet, AND b/c I think in my case *adding* shims advances the timing, there may be much room for improvement
here is what my pump looks like at the location where shims are, I think, supposed to be:

shims-1.jpg
shims-1.jpg (206.1 KiB) Viewed 1498 times


shims-2.jpg
shims-2.jpg (175.77 KiB) Viewed 1498 times
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:58 am

I may be completely wrong that those are the timing shims - because I don´t understand how they could affect pump timing - seems like all they could affect is the position of the cam relative to the pump body, a little bit - and unless the cam is acting on cambered surfaces of some kind, that would only affect, in a tiny way, where the cams are riding on the plungers

also, it seems like the instructions for pump timing adjustment are individual to each cylinder, which I don´t understand either - most other Yammers I´m reading about online have a simple rectangular stack of shims that adjust timing for the whole pump - but this one seems to be individual - OR, there are individual adjustments per cylinder, and THEN a whole pump adjustment - but I am still trying to figure out whether these are, indeed, the timing adjustment shims (plod plod plod)
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:31 am

well, I see nothing else that could possibly be timing shims - the pump body is a single piece - no seam under the pipe distribution area, as there are on other Yanmar IPs - the bottom plate has a simple sealing gasket, ditto front plate - the side seam with the governor is clearly a sealing gasket, about 1/16" thick - the timing shims *must* be the ones labeled 'adjusting packing' centered on the cam, and their thickness must somehow cause the cam to rotate slightly either forward or backwards to advance/retard timing

I´m going to call that case ´solved´ - next weekend: dismount the IP and see how many shims are in there

oh, meanwhile, I did figure out where the timing marks are on the flywheel - I was looking for an opening front or rear - apparently, there is a viewport on the *side* of the bell housing, near the IP (helpful) - looking forward to finding on Sunday - and, apparently there are not only marks for TDC and 12°bTDC, but TDC for each of the 4 cylinders - handy!

flywheel-timing.jpg
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rds » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:08 pm

If I were you I would definitely bring my injection pump and injectors to some specialized shop for calibration , you simply can’t do it properly by yourself . You need a special equipment for that.
Diesel engine might smoke for variety of reasons from worn piston rings, worn valves to improper fuel atomizing by bad injector in one cylinder or simply water condensate in the muffler. Diesel engines like load. The harder the better within its normal limitations . B.t.w. this is turbo diesel so it also might be smoking due to worn out turbo. You have to run it under some load for extended period of time before it starts smoking less.

My 4JHE did not run more than 2200 rpms when I managed to start it first time . It actually came out that the plungers on top of IP stuck. I poked them with screwdriver and they eventually started to move …. (b.t.w. shimming changes beginnig of the stroke of plungers ) .
I also forgot to add that they shimming injectors as well so it starts to open exactly at predefined pressure therefore at the correct timing

Eventually I brought my IP and injectors to MackBoring office in NJ. The guy there (I do not remember his name but still have his card somewhere ) is very knowledgeable. He runs the IP testing equipment. As far as I recall they charged me about $700 + for IP rebuild / calibration and rebuild injectors .. ( maybe more now) . He replaced bunch of small rubber / copper / plastic spacers , rings , shims.

I recall him saying to me that he pretty often recalibrates new IP pumps which laying on the shelf for 6 months or longer. They simply go bad because of really tight tolerances and lack of movement.

So far so good, almost 6 years later my yanmar starts right up , holds idle , reaches full rpms under the load, seems like it consumes fuel within specifications, runs smooth overall. It smokes while cold but in 15-20 mins it warms up and smokes less ..
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:28 pm

thanks rds
all good thoughts
absolutely true that a real testing facility would be preferable

but because of the time crunch I'm in, I'm going to try to get it close myself, or at least better
I believe the IP (and probably injectors) were serviced by previous owner - it certainly starts and runs like it wants to go, now
but I believe IP may not have been timed properly when re-installed, hence the banging and smoking

at any rate, it's worth looking at the shim pack - the IP would have to be removed either way
and I don't think it's beyond the skills of a backyard wrench monkey to do a basic static timing

(btw, the 4JHE is not a turbo - if yours is, it's either not a 4JHE, or it was modified)

thanks again,
Rolf in MA
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rds » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:26 am

correct ,I checked my yanmar , I got 4JH-TE, 55hp with turbine.. one more level of complexity.
Banging / pinging might be due to very advanced timing but also might be the result of bad injectors with bad spray patterns and/or dripping fuel ... which in its turn might lead to pistons damage.
As far as I recall you can rotate whole IP slightly to advance or retard it, as on your pictures above. (the third nut between IP and block is almost impossible.. ). If it is not enough, you have to remove small cover in front of IP to get an access to big timing gear to check timing marks or remove IP and special yanmar puller which threads into this gear and pulls it out of IP , otherwise the whole front cover has to be removed .. I can image that prev. owner somehow reinstalled IP incorrectly (say, he missed one or two teeth ), and small retarding / advancing thing is not going to help. At least I would make sure all timing marks match..
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:09 am

definitely
will confirm basic timing, at least
if my meatball attempts to get it in range don't help, then it's off to the shop
(there's a good IP/injector place in Everett, Near Boston)

oh, and I was thinking timing retarded - according to the service manual (pics above), both 'loud banging' and 'white smoke' are symptoms of timing 'too slow'
which, as I read the manual, means more shims are needed to advance it
makes sense, if he re-installed with zero shims, or did not buy a fresh shim pack and time it correctly to 12°bTDC
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:36 pm

um... I can't believe I've been so dumb
I just realized that the IP is likely timed by rotating it, not shimming it
other Yanmar IPs that have dedicated shim packs, and it's very clear where they go and how they work
but mine does not - only, 'adjusting packing' centered on the cam - maybe that does something with timing, maybe not
but what it clearly also has, looking at my own photo above, is oblong mounting holes that allow the IP to rotate
that *clearly* would affect timing - it's a standard way IPs are timed - it's how I've adjusted half a dozen VWs - *duh*
how did I allow myself to get waylaid by this whole shim thing? stupid Google
bet I can spin it a little more advanced and it'll run hunky dory
we'll see
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby midnightsailor » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:43 pm

Just read your last post and had to smile as when I looked at your previous photo of pump I also saw those oblong holes as well as the cast in arrow on the pump and wondered to myself if that could be the timing adjustment. Should have mentioned it but you seemed to be researching things so well I just assumed you had already seen those and dismissed them. oh well, plug on I am sure you'll get it soon. Look forward to hearing that its running. And yes this area out on Eastern Long Island has some great windsurfing spots as well as places to sail to., Rick
1982 Freedom 33 Cat Ketch, Hull # 53, Standard Booms, deep keel ,tall rig
An armed man is a citizen, An unarmed man is a subject. George Washington
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Re: help me revive this beast (Yanmar 4JHE on F39PH)

Postby rbpfyo » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:01 pm

it's running, and pretty happily
just a little too much smoke and mirrors
looking forward to spinning that pump when I get to NH next
(lived in New Suffolk for about 10 years - still my favorite spot - looking forward to visiting the North Fork in the Freedom)
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