Shaft seal research info.

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mike cunningham
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Shaft seal research info.

Post by mike cunningham »

A colleague of mine in the SF Singlehanded Sailing Society got me motivated to do more homework regarding my upcoming shaft seal replacement/repair. I am coming out of the Water 18 April so I needed someone to give me a push.

What an adventure!

I followed the Tides Marine path for awhile but got cold feet after talking to Tides directly and getting less than stellar vibes about the modified seal. The mod is basically a cut to reduce the length of the seal body as I understand it. Not too sure why Tides was not terribly enthusiastic but they said something like "some good some bad" and I wasn't keen on that.

So I then investigated Norscot. Very nice fellow at their facility spent a half hour educating me and the seal sounds good and would fit, I just was not keen on the extra ATF in the boat for the lube system.

So on the Syntron repair which was quite interesting. The MFG has changed hands a few times, Garlock is now the Mfg of the line and parts and seals are available. Possibly long lead and hi cost but have not received quotes yet. Point of contact is Gabe Duchene at 216-496-0061 if anyone wants to check this out. Very nice guy and was aware of the seal use in Freedoms. BTW, I asked him about the infamous greasing issue. Just to confirm what as been said here before. The grease nipples were simply installed by Freedom to allow "burping" of the seal and were not to be used to grease. Gabe recommended You simply put a barb in there and run a clear tube up above the waterline to be able to observe water is in the seal. There is no need to force feed the water. There are holes in the aft end of the seal to allow water into the thing for cooling. Seems like this could present problems with marine growth though. Anyway, that clears up a mystery for me.

Finally I checked in with Lasdrop. They sell a dry face seal which is 3.3 inches long. Paul at Lasdrop (1-800-940-7324) was also a very nice guy and stated he could easily cut 3/4 inches off the barb end of the seal and I would be fine - darn near the size of the Syntron which is approx 2 3/8 inches long (small !!). The nice thing about lasdrop is you can install a spare seal on the shaft and repair the thing at sea if the need arises. You need 1/2 inch for the "riding replacement" though so it'll be tight. Again, no water supply required, just plumb the tube from a barb at 12 oclock to above waterline (I will go into top step storage at companionway where engine water vented loop is located) and you are good. Cost was crazy good: $140 for the 1 inch seal and $25 for the spare guts - can't beat that.

So I am chasing the Syntron costs for the record but I did order the Lasdrop as a primary choice. If Syntron comes in competitive I may reconsider. At the price of the lasdrop, no harm no foul.

One thing for sure, to a person, these seal people were nice folks. Who woulda thought?

Mike
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

Belanich
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by Belanich »

Hi Mike,
I just replaced the shaft seal on Dolcetto (F38) last week. I used a Tides seal as it was recommended by Paul Dennis from Warren River Boatworks. It was tight but it fit. I also replaced the shaft. I cut out the old shaft, removed the cutless bearing, installed the new shaft (required a bit of force) then installed the new cutless bearing. The shaft has yet to be aligned.
Michael Belanich
s/v Dolcetto F38 #65
shaft.jpg
shaft.jpg (240.3 KiB) Viewed 8524 times

rafontaine1
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Liberte, F36, 1986, Portsmouth RI

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by rafontaine1 »

Michael;
Looks good but tight. What is that block of metal between the transmission flange and the shaft flange? Looks like a flexible coupling of sorts I've never seen before.
Don't forget to tighten all the bolts before you power off. They look a little loose. :)
Rich Fontaine
s/v Liberte
Freedom 36, 1986
Portsmouth, RI

Belanich
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by Belanich »

The PO replaced the engine with a 40hp Yanmar 3JH3E. That cylinder is a torque limiter, standard on that model. I still have to align the shaft (this weekend) that is why the bolts are loose. I will finish alignment in water.

daletournier
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:25 pm

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by daletournier »

Hi, is the new tides seal water injected? Mine is and I don't particularly like that it is.
Cheers Dale.
Freeform.

Belanich
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by Belanich »

Hi Dale,
Paul Dennis from Warren Boatworks sold me the Tides Seal. He says it is not necessary to use the water injection. He provides a plug to replace the hose fitting.
Michael Belanich

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mike cunningham
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by mike cunningham »

Just a quick follow up on the syntron seal. A rebuld kit is $750.00!!

That is a steep price. Can't get a lead time on the parts until ordering but looks like weeks from what I am told by the folks at Garlock.

Does not seem like a good solution vs the lasdrop.
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

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gamayun
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 pm

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by gamayun »

Hey Mike, here's an update on my shaft seal adventure. I had ordered both the Lasdrop and the PSS seals. For the PSS seal, I also requested the carbon end without the stainless hose fitting for the vent line (i.e., the older version). I think the Lasdrop would have worked but they sent a tube that was too large diameter for my shaft log, and I was running out of time so I went with the older PSS version. There was not enough space to compress the bellows according to their compression chart, but after running it for over an hour, it didn't have any leaks and the bilge is now dry for the first time in 3 years. It wasn't an easy job, but I'm very happy with the outcome :)
20160414_180454_resized.jpg
20160414_180454_resized.jpg (21.95 KiB) Viewed 8358 times
Kynntana, Freedom 38

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mike cunningham
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by mike cunningham »

Very nice!! You have more room than I do though.

A funny story - I have a brand new lasdrop sitting at the boatyard at Grand Marina. I was going to haul out right after the SHTP cruise in. The night before I anchored out at China Camp. After I dropped anchor I went below and sure enough, bilge was full of water - that dang shaft seal leaking like a sieve. But as I was bailing the last bit I thought lets taste the water (I have a pretty clean bilge :D ). I tasted and it was fresh. I am well into the bay and if this was bay water it would be salty as heck. Also I just was not seeing the volume of leakage I would have expected from the seal itself. I was just watching the small shaft well, under engine well and bilge fill up whenever I was motoring... Must be the shaft seal, right?

Wrong, after several months I finally figured out what was going on. The fresh water hose going from the hot water outlet on the water heater forward to the head is run under the engine, though the engine pan and has a thick rubber chafe guard wrapped around it. Despite the chafe guard, the water hose was exposed to the sharp edge of the cutout hole in the engine pan that allows access to the motor mount bolts. This had cut a pinhole in pressurized fresh hot water line right under the engine. Whenever I was turning on the pressure water the thing was spraying a fine mist into the engine pan, overflowing into the shaft well and then overflowing both and into the bilge. I leave water pressure on a lot because once the system pressures up there is zero current draw. I just was not connecting water pressure to the flooding because of the area where the water was accumulating: under the engine and in the shaft well.

So after all the research, etc. I have decided to leave the whole thing alone. I was going to have to spend a lot of money to fix a non problem. We'll see how long the syntron lasts but it looks like its got life left in it yet. I also have a brand new lasdrop that has been modified to fit a Freedom 30.
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

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gamayun
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 pm

Re: Shaft seal research info.

Post by gamayun »

Glad to hear you have found the problem! I was convinced for a while that the leaking in the bilge was alternately a keel bolt, the holding tank, the water heater or ingress from the mast. Trust me, I didn't want to taste that water either, and though it's necessary to narrow down the problem, sometimes it was more fresh than salty, hence the confusion about the source.

One thing I think everyone needs to do is provide the source, dimensions, part info and if there were any mods made on what they used because that Tides Marine seal that Belanich got from Paul Dennis is quite different from the PSS that I got (and not just in that pretty red color!). Both the length of the bellows and the carbon ring are very different in type and lengths. I'll get to my notes later today and post that info.

Because you have less space between the coupling and shaft tube, Mike, I hope others will chime in on their fixes with their F30/32s. At least some of this might help the next person who has an F36/38.
Kynntana, Freedom 38

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