Mizzen sheet on F39PHS (also mast climbing)

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Mike Holibar
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Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:41 am

Mizzen sheet on F39PHS (also mast climbing)

Post by Mike Holibar »

hi all, I have just been admiring Marno's web site and all the wonderful photos and stories so well presented, when I noticed all the gadgetry attached to the pushpit. GPS antenna, davits, flag staff and so forth. The mizzen sheet track seems to be on the same place as on my boat, but on my boat anything protruding above the rails will be gone after the first jibe. Even the helmsman's head is not safe! The po commented that they lost more than one danbouy this way. Even the outboard bracket is prone to getting the sheet wrapped around it so the outboard is always kept below when sailing. Marno must have a good set up to protect this gear, I would love to know how he does it.
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand

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Michel
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by Michel »

I've been wrestling with the same problem on the F44. The mizzen track is on top of the transom and the boom protrudes even more aft. On Marno's site you can see that the davits are mounted just outside the track on top of the transom. An other solution as seen on F44 Airborne is mounting the davits not on top of the transom, but against the transom. For a flagstick holder this works equally well. I've been toying with the idea of doing away with the tracks altogether and using two deadeyes at the end points of the tracks. For the forward sail this is better than a track; the track seduces you to sheet in the forward sail on the catketch or -schooner way too far in because the track makes you forget is is actually a genoa on a stick. If you look at the modern rig of the Wyliecat, you find they don't use tracks. If it wasn't for a whole bunch of holes in the deck and transom, I'd done away already with the tracks. Nothing beats simplicity, right!
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

katorpus
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by katorpus »

I'm confused about the track being a "seduction" (to sheet in too far). My rig has no tracks (main or mizzen). The mizzen sheets to a padeye on the end of the boomkin (which is forever getting the sheet/block wrapped around it any time the sheet is not carefully controlled in a tack (or gybe!). I'm fiddling with something to hold the turning block upright to limit this (maybe a split piece of white hose & cable ties).

The main is sheeted to a padeye on the centerline of the deck...talk about something to seduce you into oversheeting the main! I've been contemplating installing a track simply so I can get the boom to stay down WITHOUT oversheeting toward the centerline (by dropping the car to the leeward end of the track).

I'm thinking maybe that the F40 Cat Ketches which were originally shipped with "standard booms" had a track installed for the main (mine were a factory retrofit, but the PO only shipped the masts back to Rhode Island, not the whole boat.)

I tend to think of my main as more of a "blade jib" on a stick (with a heck of a roach), however, since I've never seen a genoa that didn't have overlap.

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Michel
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by Michel »

John,

I see your point. A single padeye indeed challenges you even more to sheet in too far. I was referring to the Wyliecat sheeting arrangement with two padeyes placed just inside the sidedecks or on the edges of the coachroof.
Like this:
Wyliecat 66 sheeting arrangement.
Wyliecat 66 sheeting arrangement.
66b.jpg (63.79 KiB) Viewed 8870 times
Judging by their performance in races, I daresay the Wyliecats have the most advanced implementation of the cat(-ketch) rig.

About your mizzen: would it be possible to retrofit a spring under the block? I have Shaefer footblocks with springs on main and mizzen and I know these springs break over time and can be replaced.
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

katorpus
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by katorpus »

I haven't seen a spring-loaded, stand-up block that I felt would make an adequate replacement (size or strengthwise) for the block, shackle and (large) padeye that exists now.

As for the Wyliecat's sheeting arrangement...it seems that the single-line-through the block (on the boom) and through the turning blocks (leeward & windward) might make for a nice clean look, but I don't see the point. Also, there's a good reason for the multi-block sheeting arrangement on the "standard" booms (absent with the wishbones)...you need the mechanical advantage. There is no mechanical advantage to simply having a turning block on the boom end.
One of the things Hoyt touted (with the wishbone design) was how little effort went into sheeting. I can assure you that's not the case with 19 feet of "standard" boom and a sail that's attached to that boom along its entire foot.

If you shorten that single line (from either end), then the "vee" formed where the sheet passes through boom-end block is going to
1) Get closer to the deck, and
2) Move toward the centerline of the boat.

Tensioning either end of that line (unless it were attached to the boom like a jib sheet) is going to result in equal "stretch" over the entire length of the line (between the winches), and continuing to do so would ultimately bring the boom end to the deck at the centerline of the boat (the same place it would be on the arrangement that's on mine).

Furthermore, instead of one single sheet for each sail, you now have "two" (ends of the same sheet) to deal with, and two winches occupied, and the need to have some kind of "keeper" to prevent the loss of the end of the sheet through the block if you "drop" the mainsheet (from either end). Inevitably, at some point, you'll end up with "too much" of the sheet on one side or the other of the boat. Beyond that, that sheet running through that single block makes a hell of a "pinch point" for someone to get caught up in if they happened to be in the way of an inadvertent gybe.

The single mainsheet approach makes a whole lot more sense to me...and is a lot safer. Dropping (or pulling) the car on a track to leeward with a separate line is a pretty simple process (and isn't absolutely "necessary" at the time of the turn...you can tack first and then adjust it, just as you do with the mainsheet when tacking.

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Michel
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by Michel »

John,
You assume that there are two running parts to the sheet, but there's only one. The other end is fixed to the deadeye. And if you would pull the boom or wishbone end all the way down to the deck, it would slide out to leeward, and not stay in the middle. Think of the traveller arrangement on the Laser; only if you slack off the sheet, it seeks the middle point. If you take a look at the mainsheet arrangement on the Open 60 monohulls, you'll find they do it in exactly the same way with a single block on the boom end. In stead of our four part sheet, they have one powerful winch. And just to cheer you up: a wishbone needs the same force to sheet in as a normal boom, I can assure you.
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

briank
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by briank »

Michel, John

The mainsheet on my PHS39 was strange arrangement that ran from the traveller on the rear cockpit coaming up to a block on the end of the boom, along the bottom of the boom to a block about a meter from the gooseneck then down thru blocks on the deck and back to the electric winch, so you could haul it at the traveller or on the winch. I didn't like this setup at all, and noticed that the blocks at the end of the boom and on the traveller were designed to give a double-sheet arrangement, in fact a 5 part purchase. I re-rove it like that and it works fine. You end up with two ends - pull either, or pull both for full advantage. The tails could be joined to give a continuous line, I guess, and they remain long enough to run round the winch (I think). While they're not joined one does tend to get longer and the other shorter, but this is easily corrected. I suspect I've reverted to the original arrangement, and it's far better than the way the p.o. had it.

John mentions the possible need for a keeper on each end of such a double mainsheet - the manual that came with the PHS39 says you should use such anyway, especially when running in order to stop the boom going forward of right angles to the fore/aft line of the vessel. If you were to splice the ends together as above then no need for keepers.

My foresail traveller line isn't led back to the cockpit; when tacking the traveller just zips across. This seems to work fine as it is and would do the same with the control line removed. Is there any point in having it/hauling the fore (smaller) sail in on a schooner when beating?

Brian Kerslake, 'Paradox' PHS, Brighton UK
F39 (1988) PHS 'Paradox'
Brighton Marina, UK

Mike Holibar
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by Mike Holibar »

My foresail traveller line isn't led back to the cockpit; when tacking the traveller just zips across. This seems to work fine as it is and would do the same with the control line removed. Is there any point in having it/hauling the fore (smaller) sail in on a schooner when beating?
I am just beginning work on the foresail sheeting arrangements on Fyne Spirit and there are several interesting comments in this thread which have got me thinking.
The track is well worn and the car is completely shot. The PO has had it lashed mid ships for a while and i have continued with this set up and it seems OK. I have found when beating I have the sail sheeted right in, maybe 5 deg off the centreline. I had heard that 10Deg was the minimum and started at this point, but got better performance sheeting in further. 85-90 deg tack to tack, and there are not too many boats that can catch me beating up the harbour. On this experience I thought of doing away with the track and going to a single padeye in the deck but... I read the comment that the track enables the boom to be kept down more easily. My foresail vang has had a hard time, busted lug at the mast base, seriously deformed shackle (almost sheared) on the boom block, so I am thinking the loads may be too much for the vang alone? With conventional rigs the boom does not go out as far when running so maybe the vang does not have to carry the same loads. Because I have only one winch (manual unfortunately!) purchase for sheeting has to be via blocks at the boom so the two pad eye system might not be suitable. Comments, advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand

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Michel
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by Michel »

Mike,

If you have the same Shaefer track as I have, the bearing balls are easily replaced. They are 1/4" standard bearing balls. It's a bit of a trick to get them in (they are only held in place by the track). you could do away with the track of course and replace it with one or two deadeyes.

About your vang: my Laser days taught me to release the cunningham and outhaul when letting the sheet out for an off wind course. This was to prevent the boom or vang from breaking because when sheeting out, the sail gets tightened. I kept this practice and let go of the outhaul (or actually the choker on a wishbone rig) to prevent the slides getting too much pressure and to create a fuller sail.
Last edited by Michel on Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

katorpus
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Re: Mizzen sheet on F39PHS

Post by katorpus »

I'll go with Michel (below) that the boom will seek the leeward-most point allowed by the sheet...the obvious result of that being that you'll never be able to sheet in the main any further toward the centerline than the attachment points/blocks on the side decks. This seems a little strange to me. The Hoyt manual for the boat (with the original wishbone booms) says you should never sheet in closer than 60% of the distance from the midline of the boat to the leeward rail. You wouldn't be able to get that much unless the blocks/attachment points were set inboard somewhat. Since the boat is approx 13' on the beam at the wide point, you're looking at 60% of 6.75 feet or 4.05 feet. That would be a straight track with a length of 8' or a curved track with the end points of the arc at 8'. I'm thinking that, on the F40, with the significant arch in the deck at that point, that I'd be looking at an elevated track with a pretty large drop to the deck at the track ends. I'm not really ready to wrap my head around that kind of a "construction" out there, aesthetically speaking, never mind the "boat buck plus" that it would take to buy the pieces.

I think I'll just stick with what I've got and think about putting the money into a Garhauer vang rather than the soft vangs I use now.

Speaking of vangs, I got hit by a sudden windshift in a freaky local squall while entering the boat basin in Port Aransas a few years ago. I had a lot of vang set on the mizzen, and the resulting crash-jibe blew the stainless steel wire pendant on the mizzen vang and sent pieces of the eye flying across the cockpit like bullets. Thankfully, nobody was hurt, but it sounded like a gunshot, complete with richochet noises. That may be what deformed your shackle.

It never occurred to me to put a positive stop on the sheet to prevent the boom going forward of 90 degrees, but that does make sense. Actually, due to the length of the standoff on my goosenecks, I can go forward of 90% a little bit, but it does seem like a good idea to have a positive stop, as opposed to relying on "paying attention to what one is doing".

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