F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Boat handling, ideas, questions...

F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby Mike Holibar » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:37 am

Hi all, I thought the discussion developing between Brian and me in the Boom Brake thread was getting a little off topic so I though I would start this one and also have a go at up loading a couple of photos. First photo is Fyne Spirit at anchor in Marlborouugh Sounds NZ, second is me and the admiral (Jane) sailing of Banks Peninsula, and the third was taken in Cook Strait - sailing like a witch - we hit 11.5 knots surfing that day!
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I have copied across Brian's last post as a starting point.

[quote]Hi Mike, Michel, etc

Mike, I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier to your various points but my wife and I were busy (fiinally) shifting Paradox from Plymouth to Brighton. What was supposed to be a quick trip turned into a mini-vacation with three nights at anchor in Dartmouth while fog sorted itself out, a couple of nights in the new 2012 Olympic marina in Portland Harbour while strong westerlies damped down (things kept breaking so I was following a policy of 'prudence') and a couple of nights anchored off Poole and the Isle of Wight. We had a couple of days of motoring into light easterlies, and a couple of days of downwind stuff in 10-15 knots. We much enjoyed the boat's performance although, being an 88 build, various things broke or were logged as needing refurbing.

We needed to get the alternator fixed before the trip and replaced the defunct TWC charger with an Adverc which seems to do a fine job of charging the four batteries. The mains charger was bringing them up to around 650 amps but the Adverc gets them up to 720 or so. The fridge has never worked so we used ice. There was a disintegrating cable between the start switch and the starter motor and the starter relay fell apart when touched. The gas system was condemned and replaced. So we've got a good few jobs done already.

Really impresed with the schooner rig - she sails like a witch, as Ian Tew who wrote the books 'Sailing In Grandfather's Wake' about his circumnavigation in a PHS39 says. Also handles superbly under power and the Maxprop (folding) is great in astern. Bit concerend about the Perkins Prima 50 which ran at 80 degrees at 1200 revs, 90 degrees at 1600 and 100 degrees at 1800. Kind of exopected it to settle at 90 whatever the revs?

So overall we are really pleased with our purchase, and very pleased too to be in touch with you so we can bounce ideas around.

You asked how the boombrake is set up. Now that I've used this 'Dutchman Boom Brake' I must say I'm impressed (this is on the main boom). The line is fixed to the port toerail about 18 inches aft of the mast (previous owner's installation). It goes up to the brake which is attached just forward of the kicker fitting (they say you can remove the kicker but I didn't tho' now think I could), two turns round the kind of 'Archimedes screw' on the brake (tried the max 3 but that was too much for the conditions) then down to a block in a similar position on the starboard toerail, then on to a 'handy billy' on the starboard quarter. There's a jammer on the bottom block of the billy but I found it better to use the aft cleat. I was wary of the device at first and avoided gybing, then thought what the heck, ignored the sheet, ducked and watched the main stay upwind. I then took the tension ever so slowly off the billy and was able to control the swing of the boom with ease. This was only in 10-12 knots so it remains to be seen how it functions in heavier conditions. But first impressions are good. The manufacturers say that instead of loosening the billy you can simply pull down on the sheet to auto-ease the friction in the brake. Seemed to make more sense to keep out of the way of the sheet and use the brake's own lines.

I reckon it would be good to have one on the foresail too, probably set up quite loosely, because as you say the foresail does tend to feather nicely once it's swung so far. Each brake would then have three functions - kicker, brake and preventer - it certainly works as the latter.

The model we have is the original; current models come with a knob with which you can get even finer control over the friction - Google 'Dutchman Boom Brake' and you can read the manual. Other manufacturers make rival products; this one is simple and effective it seems.

Thanks for pointing out that snapping lug issue - I'll keep an eye out for cracks.

Paradox has 'stack packs' too. These seem to be more DIY than pro, slung under the booms rather than attached to the stacks, with the cheeks of the sailcovers crudely hung from the lazy jacks. The previous owner clearly let them take the weight of the booms and sails. I was fairly happy to do that on the foresail but not on the main, as the upper part looks a bit dodgy. I left the main topping lift attached and sailed with two reefs in the main to be sure the topping lift didn't rub the sail. It's a pretty heavy boom to be suspended from a dodgy lazy jack.

I think I said that up until Paradox we've sailed schooner junks on western hulls so we're used to well-set up lazy jacks that really can take the weight of the sail and boom. That's the direction I'll be heading I think, although I can see that they do tend to spoil the shape of the Freedom sail. One to think about. If set up properly and run back to the cockpit the windward lazy jack can take the weight and the leeard one can be eased off. Works for junks anyway.

Some kind of stainless hoop over the helmsman's head is possibly a must too. This is pretty standard in western junks to keep the sheet away from the helmsman. Having seen the sheet whip across at what is a pretty low level before I got the brake working, I see it as a real danger. Seems daft to invest in expensive safety gear and ignore this very real hazard.

Regarding terminology, we're schooners, so I think foresail and mainsail is the way to go. To me only a ketch gets a mizzen.

Great to have an electric winch for the sails and another on the anchor - luxury after years of hauling both by hand. Great autopilot too - B & G Helmstar - didn't get to try the staysail or the Hydrovane. The Yeoman Chart Plotter was brilliant. i was thinking of replacing it with a modern chartplotter but having a GPS mouse on a real paper chart is so much better.

Keep in touch,

Brian Kerslake
'Paradox' F39 PHS (1988)
Brighton UK
[quote]
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Hi Brian, great to hear from you and to hear about Paradox. You covered a lot of ground in your post and I will respond when I have a bit more time. Your engine temp is a concern though, it should be no more than 90. I would suggest a quick visual check of the raw water discharge at the exhaust, and if it looks like a reasonable flow, check thermostat, then heat exchanger tubes. Something must be disrupting the flow of either FW or Sw somewhere. The other possibility/concern may be propeller pitch. The M50 develops its full power at 3000 rpm and the prop should be pitched to allow this to happen. For us this gives cruising revs of 2000 -2500 -5.5-7.0 knots depending on conditions. If she was seriously overpitched (say) limiting revs to 2000 rpm max, then the engine will be seriously overloaded as you approach those rpm and might overheat. Typically their would be quite a bit of black smoke too. With the Maxi-prop that could well be fixed by taking off a bit of pitch.
BTW I used to live in Shoreham (Old Fort Road) in the 1960s. Do you reach your berth through the Adur river mouth and the locks at the Brighton end? As I recall the tides were 24 feet and you could only come and go on the high tide. I will be in touch soon. Kind regards,

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S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby briank » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:30 am

Hi Mike

Great photos, thanks, and thanks for starting a new thread - I did ramble on a bit. Look forward to any comments when you've time. To answer your question, we actually live in a flat/apartment in Brighton Marina which was built in the late 70s/early 80s, so no tidal problems. You can view it on Google Earth or look at http://www.brightonmarina.co.uk/. Shoreham itself now has a big lock into an inner harbour, so things are a mite easier than when you lived in this area. Maddy and I are both new to it, having moved here to be closer to, you guessed it, grandkids. Will post some pictures of Paradox when we've tidied her up a bit! Cheers,

Brian
PHS 'Paradox', Brighton, UK
F39 (1988) PHS 'Paradox'
Brighton Marina, UK
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby Mike Holibar » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:37 am

Hi Brian,
Glad to hear of your successful voyage. It is always a tricky thing the delivery voyage. It is probably the most dangerous voyage you will undertake in Paradox simply because you are still getting to know the boat. Fyne Spirit is a similar age and we are having all the same refurb issues that you mention. The alternator packed up shortly after I had been messing about with the batteries, so tha has been overhauled. Our charging system is very basic and not at all good practice - regulator on alternator and straight to the batts. The boat did have a more elaborate battery management system but the po wasn't impressed with it and disconnected it. On my Rasmus we had a good system which could punch 50 amps into the batts with the engine just above idle. Might have to look at one of these.
Our fridge packed up at xmas, just after we recgarged the system and had it serviced. It was a small 12 volt with an icebox (evaporator), and the condenser was in the locker on the port side fwd cabin. I had thought that this system wouldn't be much good at getting rid of the heat and had thoughts of engine mounted compressor and sw heat exchanger system - not nice if your M50 is as tight a fit as mine - but the fridgy persuaded me to try the latest version of the 12v. It was all unitised and precharged with quick connect joints. It took about 3 hours to install, including removing the old one and I have to say it works very well. It is quieter and uses about half the power of the old one so good result there.

Our starter played up as well. Dodgy wiring on one of the relays and then the solenoid winding failed. All fixed now though and overhauled the starter while I was at it. The brushes were almost gone.
I have a Seldon rod kicker on the main so don't use a topping lift on either sale. I do use the halyard to support each sale when furled, and I use the staysail halyard to support the fore boom when hoisting the sail. We have a manual winch so it is hard work getting everything aloft. My winter fireside project is splicing up a set of lazy jacks that can be let off to allow the sail covers to be rolled up at sea.
We have tried the Hydravane and it works well, using the main rudder as a trim tab. The po used webbing to lash the wheel in the right spot and then trimmed the sails. He said the performance wasn't as good as when under helm. I tried engaging the helmstar solenoid valve which locks the steering, and using helmstar controls to adjust the trim. This worked ok, but the Helmstar pilot packed up and was too old to fix. So now I have a Raymarine unit which works very well with the Helmstar hydraulics.

Thanks for your comments on the boom brake, that will go on the wish list. Also I agree with your idea about some protection for the helsman. If you look on Marno's web site, he seems to have a bimini frame doing that job - definitely worth a thought.
That will do me for tonight. Hope you are having a great summer. Kind regards,
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand
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Wind generator

Postby Michel » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:18 pm

Mike,

Smart idea to mount the wind generator on the front of the fore mast in stead of the main. How do you like it? Any comments you can make on the installation?
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby Mike Holibar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:57 am

Michel,

The wind generator was set up by the po and did some 50,000 miles like that. However, I thought I would give it a birthday and replaced bearings and brushes and gave it a coat of paint after which it went very well until it either fell of or was stolen. I suspect the former, thinling perhaps I didn't refit it properly. It is probably resting in the mud just by my mooring.
A new one is on my shelf to be fitted soon. Comments are that the old unit was quite noisy but the new model has an arrangement that governs the blade speed to 600 rpm max which should make it quieter. It works well in most situations except when sailing off the wind where the body rotates around the vertical axis. The sails blanket it in other words. As gentlemen don't sail upwind I am not sure how much use it would be on a passage, but we have a towed generator also which the po used a lot by all accounts.
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby GeoffSchultz » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:45 am

Please note that I split the discussions regarding wind generators off to a separate thread so that people would be able to find it in the future. The new title is "Wind Generators" and can be found at http://www.freedomyachts.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10155. Please continue discussing wind generators there.

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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby AdvenJack » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:51 pm

Year 2014 - Jan 25

Hi All,

I am going to look at a F39 Schooner on Jan 28, 2014.
I enjoy speed when it's there, not saying it's the top
requirement. What speed can she make? How close to
the wind will this schooner beat? How well can it TACK?
I've read some Freedoms needed motor assist to TACK!

Thank you,
Jack
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby ketch22 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Hello Adven Jack,

I own Ketch 22, a Freedom Express. The Express as you know shares the same hull as the schooner so the sailing characteristics will be similar.

How fast will she go? Hull speed can be determined by an equation used in fluid dynamics as follows: velocity is approximately equal to 1.34 * the square root of the water line length. This formula works for displacement hulls like Freedom uses. Wind and wave conditions can adjust the results. Surfing down a wave in 40 knots of wind will increase your boat speed temporarily.

How close to the wind? That depends on the skill of the sailor, the condition of the sails and the ambient environment. When I bought new sails (a glorious day, I recommend it to everyone who sails) from the North loft in Alameda, I was able to tack in 4 knots of wind in flat water. When sailing offshore in breaking waves and 30 knots off a lee shore, I might consider the diesel as a back up; but then I'm a prudent sailor.

Freedoms are well built boats. Ketch 22 has been remarkably trouble free after tens of thousands of offshore miles.

Ketch 22
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby AdvenJack » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:10 pm

I have attempted to reply to a pm that I received and my
response is in my OUTBOX. I am guessing it will move itself
into the SENT BOX soon...? So if you sent me a pm please
know that I am not ignoring you :!:

Thank you,
Jack
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Re: F39 PHS DISCUSSION

Postby Mike Holibar » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:39 am

On the question of how fast an F39 schooner is, we sailed 1000 miles from New Zealand to New Caledonia at an average speed of 5.98 knots. We spent a lot of time reaching between 8 and 9 knots. The F39 will surf controllably, though because she is quite heavy, she needs a lot of power. We once made 30 miles in three hours, goose winged, full sail, 2 meter following sea. The top speed we saw on the log was 13.8 knots. Apparent wind from astern at 35-40 knots.
Mike Holibar
S/V Fyne Spirit of Plymouth (Freedom 39PHS-1989)
Lyttelton
New Zealand
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