Anybody used Windvane self-steering?

Archives
1

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

We are the new owners of a F33 cat ketch, as I have mentioned before,
and starting a several month refit.

I will need to pick a windvane, and I want to know what others have
used on freedoms, and what you liked or didn’t like about them.

Thanks,
Barry

2

Posted by Louis Petrosino (lpetros2@…>)
I purchased a F33 in Oct. 2006 and replaced all the electronics. As far as I am concerned Raymarine’s sail package and S1 autopilot are the way to go; especially if purchased during a boat show. If your talking about a wind operated autopilot Sailomat has a good reputation, but I have not completed my search.Lou P----- Original Message ----From: Barry Stellrecht <yak@…>To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 1:23:26 PMSubject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Anybody used Windvane
self-steering?

We are the new owners of a F33 cat ketch, as I have mentioned before,
and starting a several month refit.

I will need to pick a windvane, and I want to know what others have
used on freedoms, and what you liked or didn’t like about them.

Thanks,
Barry


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

3

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

I do not mean an electronic autopilot, I mean a mechanical windvane
like the Sailomat.

If anybody else has put one on a Freedom cat ketch, I would love to
hear what you thought of it.

Thanks,
Barry

On Jan 8, 2008 1:52 PM, Louis Petrosino <lpetros2@…> wrote:

I purchased a F33 in Oct. 2006 and replaced all the electronics. As far as I
am concerned Raymarine’s sail package and S1 autopilot are the way to go;
especially if purchased during a boat show. If your talking about a wind
operated autopilot Sailomat has a good reputation, but I have not completed
my search.

Lou P

4

Posted by geraldfreshwater (freshwater@…>)

We have a Windpilot self-steering gear on a UK built F35 centre-board cat ketch.
The
previous owner used it on transatlantic crossings with good effect. It took us a
few miles
to get the hang of it, but we have crossed the North Sea a few times under its
expert
direction. It is reliable, effective, and the current Windpilot Company owner,
Peter
Furthmann, offers a good spares service. It is, however, based in Europe
(Germany). It fits
easily with a suitable bracket (see their website), and can be removed in a few
minutes for
out of season storage. The control lines run through the scupper, then under the
cockpit
sole, and up to the wheel with a couple of fixed blocks, neatly out of the way
when in use.

Our Raymarine ST4000, (old control unit, new motor) is fine under power or in
calm
waters, but doesn’t have the power to cope with sailing in strong winds or lumpy
seas.

I have seen other varieties of windvane fitted, including one mounted off the
centre-line,
and know of no comparative test, but I wouldn’t wish to go far without one.

Regards,

Gerald Freshwater
SY Castaway

5

Posted by Peter Schaefer (pcschaefer@…>)

I too had a Windpilot Pacific windvane on my F33/35 CB cat ketch. I
used it from Trinidad up to the Virgin Islands and further on to Bermuda
and the Acores. It worked flawlessly under all conditions up to force 10
on the last leg. In light air and under power I had a small Navico
Tillerpilot move the pendulum rudder instead of the wind vane. So the
system used only a small amount of amps but gave the full steering power
of the pendulum rudder. The Freedom was wrecked in the Acores and the
Windpilot now rests in my garage waiting for the next Freedom. By the
way Windpilot has an US office in California, have a look windpilot.com.

Greetings
Peter


geraldfreshwater wrote:

We have a Windpilot self-steering gear on a UK built F35 centre-board
cat ketch. The
previous owner used it on transatlantic crossings with good effect. It
took us a few miles
to get the hang of it, but we have crossed the North Sea a few times
under its expert
direction. It is reliable, effective, and the current Windpilot
Company owner, Peter
Furthmann, offers a good spares service. It is, however, based in
Europe (Germany). It fits
easily with a suitable bracket (see their website), and can be removed
in a few minutes for
out of season storage. The control lines run through the scupper, then
under the cockpit
sole, and up to the wheel with a couple of fixed blocks, neatly out of
the way when in use.

Our Raymarine ST4000, (old control unit, new motor) is fine under
power or in calm
waters, but doesn’t have the power to cope with sailing in strong
winds or lumpy seas.

I have seen other varieties of windvane fitted, including one mounted
off the centre-line,
and know of no comparative test, but I wouldn’t wish to go far without
one.

Regards,

Gerald Freshwater
SY Castaway

6

Posted by phildowneyuk (phildowneyuk@…>)

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@…> wrote:

We are the new owners of a F33 cat ketch, as I have mentioned
before,
and starting a several month refit.

I will need to pick a windvane, and I want to know what others have
used on freedoms, and what you liked or didn’t like about them.

Thanks,
Barry
Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have drawings for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and expense of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like lin and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power / expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only a tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of the tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot of the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less clear on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys recomend a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket cluttering my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey

7

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

Phil,

I appreciate the list of models that would/have fit on the transom of
a F33. (or F35 on your side of the pond)

I’m not sure I follow your recommendations as you are giving them, though:

You say that a powerful windvane is needed to handle the big barn door
rudder and occasional heavy weather helm.

Then you say that you are planning to do a trim tab instead. As I
understand it, a trim tab is less powerful than a servo pendulum
windvane. I do agree that it should be simpler, cheaper, and easier
to home-brew successfully.

My main concerns on picking a windvane are how it controls the boat
and how it fits on the boat. The fit problems would be the transom
hung rudder and the odd way to route the control lines (through the
tiller slot/cockpit drain slot in the transom) As for how control
works, I am asking here to see what people have used and how they like
them.

Also, I have heard of tillerpilots being placed on the servo-pendulum
models for compass steering as you suggest with the trim tab.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:30 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@…> wrote:

Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have drawings for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and expense of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like lin and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power / expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only a tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of the tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot of the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less clear on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys recomend a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket cluttering my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey

8

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Barry,

Alan Kusinitz and I have good experiences with the Canadian Voyager
windvane. I had the first of their vanes on an F33/35 catketch.
Voyager made a custom aluminum casting to fit the vane nicely around
the rudder head.


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@…> wrote:

Phil,

I appreciate the list of models that would/have fit on the transom
of
a F33. (or F35 on your side of the pond)

I’m not sure I follow your recommendations as you are giving them,
though:

You say that a powerful windvane is needed to handle the big barn
door
rudder and occasional heavy weather helm.

Then you say that you are planning to do a trim tab instead. As I
understand it, a trim tab is less powerful than a servo pendulum
windvane. I do agree that it should be simpler, cheaper, and
easier
to home-brew successfully.

My main concerns on picking a windvane are how it controls the boat
and how it fits on the boat. The fit problems would be the transom
hung rudder and the odd way to route the control lines (through the
tiller slot/cockpit drain slot in the transom) As for how control
works, I am asking here to see what people have used and how they
like
them.

Also, I have heard of tillerpilots being placed on the servo-
pendulum
models for compass steering as you suggest with the trim tab.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:30 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@…> wrote:

Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have drawings
for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so
whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and
expense of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like lin
and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power /
expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be
turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only a
tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of
the tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot of
the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the
autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less clear
on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys recomend
a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver
devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket cluttering
my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the
lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey

9

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Peter,

I didn’t know you lost your boat; how awful! Sorry to hear that.

michel


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@…> wrote:

I too had a Windpilot Pacific windvane on my F33/35 CB cat ketch.
I
used it from Trinidad up to the Virgin Islands and further on to
Bermuda
and the Acores. It worked flawlessly under all conditions up to
force 10
on the last leg. In light air and under power I had a small Navico
Tillerpilot move the pendulum rudder instead of the wind vane. So
the
system used only a small amount of amps but gave the full steering
power
of the pendulum rudder. The Freedom was wrecked in the Acores and
the
Windpilot now rests in my garage waiting for the next Freedom. By
the
way Windpilot has an US office in California, have a look
windpilot.com.

Greetings
Peter

geraldfreshwater wrote:

We have a Windpilot self-steering gear on a UK built F35 centre-
board
cat ketch. The
previous owner used it on transatlantic crossings with good
effect. It
took us a few miles
to get the hang of it, but we have crossed the North Sea a few
times
under its expert
direction. It is reliable, effective, and the current Windpilot
Company owner, Peter
Furthmann, offers a good spares service. It is, however, based
in
Europe (Germany). It fits
easily with a suitable bracket (see their website), and can be
removed
in a few minutes for
out of season storage. The control lines run through the
scupper, then
under the cockpit
sole, and up to the wheel with a couple of fixed blocks, neatly
out of
the way when in use.

Our Raymarine ST4000, (old control unit, new motor) is fine
under
power or in calm
waters, but doesn’t have the power to cope with sailing in
strong
winds or lumpy seas.

I have seen other varieties of windvane fitted, including one
mounted
off the centre-line,
and know of no comparative test, but I wouldn’t wish to go far
without
one.

Regards,

Gerald Freshwater
SY Castaway

10

Posted by Peter Schaefer (pcschaefer@…>)

Michel,

I left the boat in the marina at Ponta Delgada on the main island Sao
Miguel because I had to get back home to work after a sabbatical. During
a winter storm besides some commercial vessels a barge came adrift in
the main port. This barge with a huge crane on board drifted into the
marina and smashed against the stern of my boat pressing the bows
against the pontoon. If some fellow sailors had not put a pump into the
boat, it would have been sent to the ground for sure. The insurance
company of the barge claimed for an “Act of God” and it took me half a
year and the help of a good lawyer to convince my own insurance company
that the vessel was a total loss. Finally they paid. After ripping all
new equipment out of the hulk I sold the remains of the boat to someone
in Lisbon who had her repaired.
As I retired last year I now have some spare time and am looking for a
classical Freedom cat ketch again. I think I will take advantage of the
strong Euro and go to the States this coming spring and have a look at
some of the boats advertised in yachtworld.com and elsewhere. I am still
not certain if I should opt for a F40 or even -like you did- a F44 or
stay with the F33 as I am not getting younger. I will have to discuss
this with my wife. So let’s wait and see what the future will bring.
Perhaps I will show up sometime at one of the next European Freedom
meetings in the Netherlands. But before that I will have to cross the
pond again. The next time I certainly will not leave the boat on the Acores!

So long,
Peter


michel.capel schrieb:

Peter,

I didn’t know you lost your boat; how awful! Sorry to hear that.

michel

11

Posted by Peter Schaefer (pcschaefer@…>)

Concerning the forces on the barn door rudder let me state, that before
I bought my F33/35 the PO had cut off at least 25 percent of the rudder
from the trailing edge. During two seasons in the Caribbean and the
following Atlantic crossing I never felt that the rudder area was too
small. Indeed IMHO I consider the barn door rudders of the F33 and F40
as hydrodynamical nonsense maybe dictated by some misinterpreted catboat
tradition. But unlike the cape cod catboats the Freedoms have sufficient
draft for a more “normal” rudder.

Greetings,
Peter

12

Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)

Phil Bolger says the way to counteract the arm-wrenching effects of the catboat
barn-door rudder is to put an end plate on the rudder’s bottom. He says it
works morre efficiently and you can reduce the size of the rudder.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL


---- Peter Schaefer <pcschaefer@…> wrote:

Concerning the forces on the barn door rudder let me state, that before
I bought my F33/35 the PO had cut off at least 25 percent of the rudder
from the trailing edge. During two seasons in the Caribbean and the
following Atlantic crossing I never felt that the rudder area was too
small. Indeed IMHO I consider the barn door rudders of the F33 and F40
as hydrodynamical nonsense maybe dictated by some misinterpreted catboat
tradition. But unlike the cape cod catboats the Freedoms have sufficient
draft for a more “normal” rudder.

Greetings,
Peter

13

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

Take a look at what G. Hoyt did to the Barn Door rudder on the
Alerion Cat 19 design. It looks traditional, but a real. high aspect
rudder emerges from it like a centerboard. Herm

At 03:06 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote:

Phil Bolger says the way to counteract the arm-wrenching effects of
the catboat barn-door rudder is to put an end plate on the rudder’s
bottom. He says it works morre efficiently and you can reduce the
size of the rudder.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL

---- Peter Schaefer <mailto:pcschaefer%40web.depcschaefer@…> wrote:

Concerning the forces on the barn door rudder let me state, that before
I bought my F33/35 the PO had cut off at least 25 percent of the rudder
from the trailing edge. During two seasons in the Caribbean and the
following Atlantic crossing I never felt that the rudder area was too
small. Indeed IMHO I consider the barn door rudders of the F33 and F40
as hydrodynamical nonsense maybe dictated by some misinterpreted catboat
tradition. But unlike the cape cod catboats the Freedoms have sufficient
draft for a more “normal” rudder.

Greetings,
Peter

14

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

What Peter refers to as “hydrodynamical nonsense” comes in pretty
handy when BACKING UP. I can’t see that a deeper, smaller rudder
would accomplish this…it’s hard enough to back up in an F-40…a
bow thruster would be NICE, but I’d hate to have to put one in just
because I’d carved on the rudder a bit.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman and Gail Schiller
<hschiller2@…> wrote:

Take a look at what G. Hoyt did to the Barn Door rudder on the
Alerion Cat 19 design. It looks traditional, but a real. high
aspect
rudder emerges from it like a centerboard. Herm

At 03:06 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote:

Phil Bolger says the way to counteract the arm-wrenching effects
of
the catboat barn-door rudder is to put an end plate on the
rudder’s
bottom. He says it works morre efficiently and you can reduce the
size of the rudder.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL

---- Peter Schaefer <mailto:pcschaefer%40web.depcschaefer@…>
wrote:

Concerning the forces on the barn door rudder let me state,
that before
I bought my F33/35 the PO had cut off at least 25 percent of
the rudder
from the trailing edge. During two seasons in the Caribbean and
the
following Atlantic crossing I never felt that the rudder area
was too
small. Indeed IMHO I consider the barn door rudders of the F33
and F40
as hydrodynamical nonsense maybe dictated by some
misinterpreted catboat
tradition. But unlike the cape cod catboats the Freedoms have
sufficient
draft for a more “normal” rudder.

Greetings,
Peter

15

Posted by selftacker (blue_water_sail@…>)

Speaking of self steering…
I have a sailomat 601 that came with my boat, if anyone is interested,
make me an offer. Unit was was removed when I bought boat, I’m not
going to put it back on.It is complete with manuals.
Located in Long Beach Ca. I really don’t want to box the thing up, so
pick up, or I can deliver if you’re not too far.
I will take pictures if you want, unit is in good shape.

Chuck Miller
F-42 Free Spirit
blue_water_sail@…

16

Posted by phildowneyuk (phildowneyuk@…>)

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@…> wrote:

Phil,

I appreciate the list of models that would/have fit on the transom
of
a F33. (or F35 on your side of the pond)

I’m not sure I follow your recommendations as you are giving them,
though:

You say that a powerful windvane is needed to handle the big barn
door
rudder and occasional heavy weather helm.

Then you say that you are planning to do a trim tab instead. As I
understand it, a trim tab is less powerful than a servo pendulum
windvane. I do agree that it should be simpler, cheaper, and easier
to home-brew successfully.

My main concerns on picking a windvane are how it controls the boat
and how it fits on the boat. The fit problems would be the transom
hung rudder and the odd way to route the control lines (through the
tiller slot/cockpit drain slot in the transom) As for how control
works, I am asking here to see what people have used and how they
like
them.

Also, I have heard of tillerpilots being placed on the servo-
pendulum
models for compass steering as you suggest with the trim tab.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:30 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@…> wrote:

Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have drawings
for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so
whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and expense
of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like lin
and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power /
expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only a
tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of the
tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot of
the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the
autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less clear on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys recomend a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket cluttering my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the
lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey
no , i am not trying to save money here i could buy any boat and any
setup i wanted

my problem with most vanes available is the brackets they are
mounted on in the freedom with its great big rudder i feel that a
gantry is too vunerable to accidental damage is a lot of weight in
completely the wrong place and is in the way of the stern ladder and
is butt ugly on a otherwise pretty boat also my mooring is between
two piles 44 feet apart and i want some room left and not paying for
another 4 feet of boat has its atractions (thet dont charge for
rudders but i think theyd measure me as 39 ft loa)

I work in the marine industry and i feel that you me and everyone
else are being if not lied to then at least substantialy mis lead
the reason that the most logical , effective and powerful system for
steering a boat ie a trim tab isnt used , is that no one can make
money doing it

to make money you need a good product that with as little
modification as possible can be sold to most yottties.
take a look at all commercial gear they all obey this rule
all that is needed is an adjustable /custom bracket.

you cant make a trim tab gear that a city lawyer with money and no
time can have his yard put on the back of his yacht and expect to
work.

they must be custom built for each boat and adjusted til they work
well.hence no incentive to market such systems thus explaining how
few are seen

but work they must. i have never used a vane myself but go to
paracay and look at lin and larry pardey.
they have been using them to cross oceans since before i was born,
look at aircraft they have been using them for years, and big ships
apparently have been known to use them to move their main rudders as
primary control

the baisic physics of the situation says they must.
all wind vanes produce a small control force which must be amplifred
a trim tab needs little force to turn it but by altrering the
effective cross section from a symetrical foil to that of a
aymetrical foil it must genenate lift and turn or stall
ok a crude paddle shoved sideways in the water tied to your tiller
will generate an enormous load of force and pull the rudder hard over
when its stalled but a stalled rudder dosent steer the boat just
creates drag as any laser sailor knows
when haslar invented his gear and many others were developed racing
yachts had counter sterns thus trim tabs were never a viable option


i shall make a neat trim tab carefuly thought out and simply but
definately not crudely made tab gear and see how it works if it works
i will be very satisfied if not, work out why and if the tab was a
rubbish idea il buy something that does work and put up with the big
bracket.
all the best phil d

17

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

I went into the issue of trim tabs when I was selecting a vane for
my F33/35 catketch. I even considered sawing the aft most 4" off my
rudder to use that part as a trimtab.

In the end, I chose a servo pendulum system. Not because I doubt the
working of a trimtab. The reason was that the design of a trimtab is
so crucial, that you really cannot buy one off the shelf, although
they do exist. If you look at successful trimtab solutions, they are
mostly custom made by their knowledgeable owners. It would have
taken me a lot of trial and error to develop the best shaped
trimtab, and I did not want to ruin my rudder while trying and
making errors.

The design-fit between vane and boat of a servo pendulum is much
less critical as long as the vane can be mounted and is strong
enough the handled the necessary steering loads.

Good luck,
Michel




— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “phildowneyuk”
<phildowneyuk@…> wrote:

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@> wrote:

Phil,

I appreciate the list of models that would/have fit on the
transom
of
a F33. (or F35 on your side of the pond)

I’m not sure I follow your recommendations as you are giving
them,
though:

You say that a powerful windvane is needed to handle the big
barn
door
rudder and occasional heavy weather helm.

Then you say that you are planning to do a trim tab instead. As
I
understand it, a trim tab is less powerful than a servo pendulum
windvane. I do agree that it should be simpler, cheaper, and
easier
to home-brew successfully.

My main concerns on picking a windvane are how it controls the
boat
and how it fits on the boat. The fit problems would be the
transom
hung rudder and the odd way to route the control lines (through
the
tiller slot/cockpit drain slot in the transom) As for how
control
works, I am asking here to see what people have used and how
they
like
them.

Also, I have heard of tillerpilots being placed on the servo-
pendulum
models for compass steering as you suggest with the trim tab.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:30 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@> wrote:

Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have
drawings
for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong
one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so
whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and
expense
of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like
lin
and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power /
expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be
turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only
a
tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the
rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of
the
tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot
of
the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the
autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the
rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less
clear on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys
recomend a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and
get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver
devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key
to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful
versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket
cluttering my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the
lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey
no , i am not trying to save money here i could buy any boat and
any
setup i wanted

my problem with most vanes available is the brackets they are
mounted on in the freedom with its great big rudder i feel that a
gantry is too vunerable to accidental damage is a lot of weight in
completely the wrong place and is in the way of the stern ladder
and
is butt ugly on a otherwise pretty boat also my mooring is between
two piles 44 feet apart and i want some room left and not paying
for
another 4 feet of boat has its atractions (thet dont charge for
rudders but i think theyd measure me as 39 ft loa)

I work in the marine industry and i feel that you me and everyone
else are being if not lied to then at least substantialy mis lead
the reason that the most logical , effective and powerful system
for
steering a boat ie a trim tab isnt used , is that no one can make
money doing it

to make money you need a good product that with as little
modification as possible can be sold to most yottties.
take a look at all commercial gear they all obey this rule
all that is needed is an adjustable /custom bracket.

you cant make a trim tab gear that a city lawyer with money and no
time can have his yard put on the back of his yacht and expect to
work.

they must be custom built for each boat and adjusted til they work
well.hence no incentive to market such systems thus explaining
how
few are seen

but work they must. i have never used a vane myself but go to
paracay and look at lin and larry pardey.
they have been using them to cross oceans since before i was
born,
look at aircraft they have been using them for years, and big
ships
apparently have been known to use them to move their main rudders
as
primary control

the baisic physics of the situation says they must.
all wind vanes produce a small control force which must be
amplifred
a trim tab needs little force to turn it but by altrering the
effective cross section from a symetrical foil to that of a
aymetrical foil it must genenate lift and turn or stall
ok a crude paddle shoved sideways in the water tied to your tiller
will generate an enormous load of force and pull the rudder hard
over
when its stalled but a stalled rudder dosent steer the boat just
creates drag as any laser sailor knows
when haslar invented his gear and many others were developed
racing
yachts had counter sterns thus trim tabs were never a viable option

i shall make a neat trim tab carefuly thought out and simply but
definately not crudely made tab gear and see how it works if it
works
i will be very satisfied if not, work out why and if the tab was a
rubbish idea il buy something that does work and put up with the
big
bracket.
all the best phil d

18

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


I also investigated this. There are some
mechanisms sold commercially for attachment to the rudder. I decided not to go
this route for the same reasons as Michel but in addition on a previous boat I
had a vane with trim tab on its own rudder and wasn’t satisfied with its
performance. Of course perhaps it was not sized properly. However, what I’ve
read always seems to favor servos.

I have used a small tiller pilot on my
voyager servo. It works great and uses very little power. I’ve used it
extensively in light air and when motoring. I’ve also used it in stronger
conditions when I was being lazy and it worked well.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 SEAPR





From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of michel.capel
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008
6:38 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re:
Anybody used Windvane self-steering?




I went into the issue of trim tabs when I was
selecting a vane for
my F33/35 catketch. I even considered sawing the aft most 4" off my
rudder to use that part as a trimtab.

In the end, I chose a servo pendulum system. Not because I doubt the
working of a trimtab. The reason was that the design of a trimtab is
so crucial, that you really cannot buy one off the shelf, although
they do exist. If you look at successful trimtab solutions, they are
mostly custom made by their knowledgeable owners. It would have
taken me a lot of trial and error to develop the best shaped
trimtab, and I did not want to ruin my rudder while trying and
making errors.

The design-fit between vane and boat of a servo pendulum is much
less critical as long as the vane can be mounted and is strong
enough the handled the necessary steering loads.

Good luck,
Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“phildowneyuk”
<phildowneyuk@…> wrote:

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@> wrote:

Phil,

I appreciate the list of models that would/have fit on the
transom
of
a F33. (or F35 on your side of the pond)

I’m not sure I follow your recommendations as you are giving
them,
though:

You say that a powerful windvane is needed to handle the big
barn
door
rudder and occasional heavy weather helm.

Then you say that you are planning to do a trim tab instead. As
I
understand it, a trim tab is less powerful than a servo pendulum
windvane. I do agree that it should be simpler, cheaper, and
easier
to home-brew successfully.

My main concerns on picking a windvane are how it controls the
boat
and how it fits on the boat. The fit problems would be the
transom
hung rudder and the odd way to route the control lines (through
the
tiller slot/cockpit drain slot in the transom) As for how
control
works, I am asking here to see what people have used and how
they
like
them.

Also, I have heard of tillerpilots being placed on the servo-
pendulum
models for compass steering as you suggest with the trim tab.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:30 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@>
wrote:

Hi I have also recently bought a f33 cat ketch, “Kusi”
and am facing this question myself.

I have seen monitor, aries and windpilot used and have
drawings
for
hydrovane bracket in the paperwork with my boat so any strong
one
would proably be ok but a freedom can quickly develop a load of
weather helm and there are high loads on the large rudder so
whatever
you choose it needs to be a heavy duty model

personaly , im going to attempt to avoid the clutter and
expense
of
an off the shelf vane and fit a trim tab to the rudder like
lin
and
larry pardey did on talesin, if nothing else you can put a
tillerpilot on the trim tab rudder and save battery power /
expensive
wheelpilot wear and tear.

trim tabs work on the principal that the main rudder can be
turned
using a trailing edge flap like on an aircraft wing
with a balanced trim tab (piviot aprox 25%from the front) only
a
tiny
input force by vane or tillerpilot is needed to turn the
rudder .

to attatch anything else to the tab the tiller or quadrant of
the
tab
needs to be fitted at the intersection of the axis of piviot
of
the
main rudder and the avis of pivot of the trim tab then the
autopilot
or vane can be attatched to this small tiller without the
rudders
movement messing it up THIS IS CRITICAL

the design criteria for the rest of the system i am less
clear on
but if in doubt read everything available , the pardeys
recomend a
book on their site and one could copy their setup roughly and
get
fiddling with it , since understanding the way these clver
devices
work and fine tuning the boat and vane setup has to be the key
to
getting the best out of it

hopefuly this way i shall save money , have a powerful
versatile
vane , and not end up with a ugly, vunerable bracket
cluttering my
stern … but im not past the design stage yet so im on the
lookout
for ideas
Phil Downey
no , i am not trying to save money here i could buy any boat and
any
setup i wanted

my problem with most vanes available is the brackets they are
mounted on in the freedom with its great big rudder i feel that a
gantry is too vunerable to accidental damage is a lot of weight in
completely the wrong place and is in the way of the stern ladder
and
is butt ugly on a otherwise pretty boat also my mooring is between
two piles 44 feet apart and i want some room left and not paying
for
another 4 feet of boat has its atractions (thet dont charge for
rudders but i think theyd measure me as 39 ft loa)

I work in the marine industry and i feel that you me and everyone
else are being if not lied to then at least substantialy mis lead
the reason that the most logical , effective and powerful system
for
steering a boat ie a trim tab isnt used , is that no one can make
money doing it

to make money you need a good product that with as little
modification as possible can be sold to most yottties.
take a look at all commercial gear they all obey this rule
all that is needed is an adjustable /custom bracket.

you cant make a trim tab gear that a city lawyer with money and no
time can have his yard put on the back of his yacht and expect to
work.

they must be custom built for each boat and adjusted til they work
well.hence no incentive to market such systems thus explaining
how
few are seen

but work they must. i have never used a vane myself but go to
paracay and look at lin and larry pardey.
they have been using them to cross oceans since before i was
born,
look at aircraft they have been using them for years, and big
ships
apparently have been known to use them to move their main rudders
as
primary control

the baisic physics of the situation says they must.
all wind vanes produce a small control force which must be
amplifred
a trim tab needs little force to turn it but by altrering the
effective cross section from a symetrical foil to that of a
aymetrical foil it must genenate lift and turn or stall
ok a crude paddle shoved sideways in the water tied to your tiller
will generate an enormous load of force and pull the rudder hard
over
when its stalled but a stalled rudder dosent steer the boat just
creates drag as any laser sailor knows
when haslar invented his gear and many others were developed
racing
yachts had counter sterns thus trim tabs were never a viable option

i shall make a neat trim tab carefuly thought out and simply but
definately not crudely made tab gear and see how it works if it
works
i will be very satisfied if not, work out why and if the tab was a
rubbish idea il buy something that does work and put up with the
big
bracket.
all the best phil d


\

19

Posted by Peter Schaefer (pcschaefer@…>)

The PO of my F33/35 had an old Autohelm 3000 wheelpilot. This device was
not able to steer the boat when the going got rough. Therefore he used
it to steer it by means of a trim tab. As I mentioned before, he cut off
a good part of the rudder from the trailing edge. This was what he used
as the trim tab moved by the Autohelm. He told me it was working ok but
I did not trust it and installed the windvane gear instead because I did
not want to depend on electricity for selfsteering across the Atlantic.

Greetings,
Peter


michel.capel wrote:

I went into the issue of trim tabs when I was selecting a vane for
my F33/35 catketch. I even considered sawing the aft most 4" off my
rudder to use that part as a trimtab.

In the end, I chose a servo pendulum system. Not because I doubt the
working of a trimtab. The reason was that the design of a trimtab is
so crucial, that you really cannot buy one off the shelf, although
they do exist. If you look at successful trimtab solutions, they are
mostly custom made by their knowledgeable owners. It would have
taken me a lot of trial and error to develop the best shaped
trimtab, and I did not want to ruin my rudder while trying and
making errors.

The design-fit between vane and boat of a servo pendulum is much
less critical as long as the vane can be mounted and is strong
enough the handled the necessary steering loads.

Good luck,
Michel

20

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Peter,

What an awful story. Good to hear that you got your insurance money.
If your interested, my previous boat, an F35 catketch CB-version)
built in 1986 is up for sale, I’ve heard from the new owner. His
work keeps him away from the boat too much, so he decided to sell
her again. I’m not sure if he’s advertising her already, perhaps he
even doesn’t have time to do that.

and there’s another F35 CK (1985). no centre board for sale in
Brouwershaven for just E29,000. Interior is a bit run down, I
believe. Wraparound sails new 2003.

Have a look at:
http://www.botenbank.nl/detail.asp?id=113632&shipName=Freedom_35


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@…> wrote:

Michel,

I left the boat in the marina at Ponta Delgada on the main island
Sao
Miguel because I had to get back home to work after a sabbatical.
During
a winter storm besides some commercial vessels a barge came adrift
in
the main port. This barge with a huge crane on board drifted into
the
marina and smashed against the stern of my boat pressing the bows
against the pontoon. If some fellow sailors had not put a pump
into the
boat, it would have been sent to the ground for sure. The
insurance
company of the barge claimed for an “Act of God” and it took me
half a
year and the help of a good lawyer to convince my own insurance
company
that the vessel was a total loss. Finally they paid. After ripping
all
new equipment out of the hulk I sold the remains of the boat to
someone
in Lisbon who had her repaired.
As I retired last year I now have some spare time and am looking
for a
classical Freedom cat ketch again. I think I will take advantage
of the
strong Euro and go to the States this coming spring and have a
look at
some of the boats advertised in yachtworld.com and elsewhere. I am
still
not certain if I should opt for a F40 or even -like you did- a F44
or
stay with the F33 as I am not getting younger. I will have to
discuss
this with my wife. So let’s wait and see what the future will
bring.
Perhaps I will show up sometime at one of the next European
Freedom
meetings in the Netherlands. But before that I will have to cross
the
pond again. The next time I certainly will not leave the boat on
the Acores!

So long,
Peter

michel.capel schrieb:

Peter,

I didn’t know you lost your boat; how awful! Sorry to hear that.

michel