Carbon masts / Storm sails

Posted by tom11995588 (tvesey@…>)

I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail, and am
scratching my head
about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The traditional way would
be to put a
separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but everybody is wary
about drilling
in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be required for a
strong extra track.

So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch world done this?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)
Bermuda

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Only an idea but I spoke with the owner of ATN that makes the gail sail which wraps around a furled genoa to see if that might work on my F-33. Turns out the wraparound pocket of some them is much larger then the masts so it is a possible approach.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982 SEAPR

----- Original Message -----
From: tom11995588
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:28 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Carbon masts / Storm sails
I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail, and am scratching my head about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The traditional way would be to put a separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but everybody is wary about drilling in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be required for a strong extra track.So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch world done this? Any thoughts would be most appreciated.Tom VeseyJackrabbit (Freedom 44)Bermuda

Posted by crwindy@…> (crwindy@…>)

With a deep enough reef in your mainsail, the racing authorities will consider
it to be a trysail. Call your sailmaker for details.

From: “tom11995588” <tvesey@…>
Date: 2005/09/25 Sun AM 10:28:22 EDT
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Carbon masts / Storm sails




I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail, and am scratching my head
about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The traditional way would be to put a
separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but everybody is wary about drilling
in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be required for a strong extra track.

So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch world done this?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)
Bermuda



\

Posted by n1ydy@… (n1ydy@…)

Harken has a track that’s been designed to glue on cf masts…

hank

Posted by tom (ketch_22@…>)

On Ketch 22, I use a small staysail as a storm trisail. It’s rigged
in front of the mizzen mast which keeps the center of effort mid ship,
uses the spare halyard to raise, and is attached to an adjustable car
on a track on the cabin top for fore and aft tuning. The sheets are
led aft through snatch blocks attached to the toe rail.

No holes in the mast and good sail balance.

Tom Marlow
Ketch 22
F39 - Express


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom11995588” <tvesey@n…>
wrote:

I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail, and
am scratching my head
about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The traditional
way would be to put a
separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but
everybody is wary about drilling
in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be
required for a strong extra track.

So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch world
done this?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)
Bermuda

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

sounds like a great idea. I assume you use the running backstay just like for a regular mizzen staysail?
Alan F-33 Hull 51 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: tom
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 12:22 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Carbon masts / Storm sails
On Ketch 22, I use a small staysail as a storm trisail. It’s riggedin front of the mizzen mast which keeps the center of effort mid ship,uses the spare halyard to raise, and is attached to an adjustable caron a track on the cabin top for fore and aft tuning. The sheets areled aft through snatch blocks attached to the toe rail.No holes in the mast and good sail balance.Tom MarlowKetch 22F39 - Express— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom11995588” <tvesey@n…>wrote:> I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail, andam scratching my head > about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The traditionalway would be to put a > separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…buteverybody is wary about drilling > in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would berequired for a strong extra track.> > So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch worlddone this? > > Any thoughts would be most appreciated.> > Tom Vesey> Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)> Bermuda

Posted by Thomas Carlton (Finesse@…>)

Tom,
Any chance of photos or dimensions for the staysail that you use as a storm
trysail for Ketch 22?
Thanks.
Thomas
F-33 L’Audace

— “tom” <ketch_22@…> wrote:

From: “tom” <ketch_22@…>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:22:52 -0000
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Carbon masts / Storm sails

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Tom,
when you do this, do you rig your primary mizzen halyard as a
topping lift/backstay, or use the running backstays to keep the mast
vertical? I’ve often wondered about using the staysail in this way,
but was afraid that the forward flexing of the mast without the
mizzen raised to help stiffen it might be problematic.

Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom” <ketch_22@e…>
wrote:

On Ketch 22, I use a small staysail as a storm trisail. It’s
rigged
in front of the mizzen mast which keeps the center of effort mid
ship,
uses the spare halyard to raise, and is attached to an adjustable
car
on a track on the cabin top for fore and aft tuning. The sheets
are
led aft through snatch blocks attached to the toe rail.

No holes in the mast and good sail balance.

Tom Marlow
Ketch 22
F39 - Express

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom11995588”
<tvesey@n…>
wrote:

I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail,
and
am scratching my head
about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The
traditional
way would be to put a
separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but
everybody is wary about drilling
in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be
required for a strong extra track.

So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch
world
done this?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)
Bermuda

Posted by tom (ketch_22@…>)

sounds like a great idea. I assume you use the running backstay just
like for a
regular mizzen staysail?
Alan F-33 Hull 51 1982

That’s correct. Same as when I fly the spinnaker staysail.


\

Any chance of photos or dimensions for the staysail that you use as a
storm trysail
for Ketch 22?
Thanks.
Thomas
F-33 L’Audace

I don’t have any pictures of the storm staysail. I have pictures of
Ketch 22 on San Francisco Bay at

http://home.earthlink.net/~svs.1/

flying the spinnaker staysail. Same concept, just a much smaller
sail. I am not aboard now. I can measure the sail next weekend and
forward the dimensions.

\

I heard from several Freedom caketch sailors (F33’s) who did
Atlantic crossings that a Freedom catketch can sail quite well under
bare poles.

Michel

I’ve heard/read that too. I’ve not had the misfortune of actually
verifying it though.



\

Tom,
when you do this, do you rig your primary mizzen halyard as a
topping lift/backstay, or use the running backstays to keep the mast
vertical? I’ve often wondered about using the staysail in this way,
but was afraid that the forward flexing of the mast without the
mizzen raised to help stiffen it might be problematic.

Lance

I have two large reefs in main and mizzen. There isn’t much sail left
on the mizzen after the second reef. In the Gulf of the Farralones in
40 knots with 2 reefs in mizzen and one in the main I was quite
comfortable. I hope I never experience conditions that make me feel
that I have to lower both main and mizzen and just fly the storm staysail.

En route to Hawaii however, I was watching with extreme interest the
flexing at the top of the mast when the spinnaker staysail was flying
in about 22 knots of breeze. Made me very nervous, to the point where
I lowered the staysail as a precaution. That occurred with the full
mizzen up. I think as a result of the experience that the mizzen
halyard doesn’t do anything that the running backstays don’t.

I could use the main halyard as you suggest, and I also have a
dedicated topping lift that I use when the mizzen is down. It keeps
the boom off the bimini.

tm
Ketch 22
F39 - Express

\

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom” <ketch_22@e…>
wrote:

On Ketch 22, I use a small staysail as a storm trisail. It’s
rigged
in front of the mizzen mast which keeps the center of effort mid
ship,
uses the spare halyard to raise, and is attached to an adjustable
car
on a track on the cabin top for fore and aft tuning. The sheets
are
led aft through snatch blocks attached to the toe rail.

No holes in the mast and good sail balance.

Tom Marlow
Ketch 22
F39 - Express

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “tom11995588”
<tvesey@n…>
wrote:

I’m hoping to enter some ocean races that require storm trysail,
and
am scratching my head
about how to go about it on my Freedom 44 cat ketch. The
traditional
way would be to put a
separate track up the side of a mast for the storm sail…but
everybody is wary about drilling
in carbon masts… let alone the series of holes that would be
required for a strong extra track.

So what to do? Has anybody out there in carbon mast/ cat-ketch
world
done this?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (Freedom 44)
Bermuda

Posted by Thomas Carlton (Finesse@…>)
Thanks, Tom. Your photo of Ketch 22 “Staysail Symphony” is my favorite Freedom photo of all time. I had printed that photo and posted it in our home as a “goal picture” months before we settled on a specific boat and made the offer. We looked for a long time, but only bought L’Audace less than a year ago.
Thomas. I don’t have any pictures of the storm staysail. I have pictures of Ketch 22 on San Francisco Bay at http://home.earthlink.net/~svs.1/ flying the spinnaker staysail. Same concept, just a much smaller sail. I am not aboard now. I can measure the sail next weekend and forward the dimensions.

Posted by tom11995588 (tvesey@…>)

Thanks everybody for your thoughts & advice on stormsails for a cat ketch.

I think the best thing for me to do at this point is experiment with a “storm
staysail” with
running backs cranked down to keep the mast from wobbling and the jib luff
relatively
tight.

At the same time, I have written to orgnizers of yacht races between the US and
Bermuda
to see if they are willing to waive or modify their normal storm jib and storm
trysails for a
cat ketch, suggesting that a storm trysail and/or deeply reefed main are more
appropriate.
I’ll pass on to the group the responses I receive.

I’ll avoid the issue of adding on a track for a storm tryail - whether glued or
riveted –
unless I am told that I absolutely have to do it.

The consensus of the handful of people I’ve spoken to who have had a Freedom 40s
or
Freedom 44s out in really nasty weather is that these boats do surprisingly well
with a
reefed main, and after than the best bet is to go straight to bare poles.

I must say that of course, the most practical approach is to keep out of storms!

Tom Vesey
Jackrabbit (F44)
Bermuda