F-33 handling in fairly strong wind...

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1

Posted by Alan (akusinitz@…>)

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

2

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Alan,

Nice account of your trip. Gives us a lot of confidence in the
seaworthyness of the catketches. 10 to 12 knots must have been a real
kick!

Best,
Michel


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Alan” <akusinitz@…> wrote:

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

3

Posted by ajlorman (ajl@…>)

Please feel free to invite me along the next time you plan a ride like
that. Sounds like great fun.

Al Lorman

4

Posted by James Fitch (chefcapn@…>)
Alan- I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient sailing rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my retirement home and one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes about shortening sail; the boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap around sails and it is 700 miles away and I am trying to find out as much as I can about it before I make a bid and a trip to view it in the flesh. Any and all input would be wonderful and much appreciated - Thanks and great sail log-
Cap’n JimyOn Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…> wrote:





For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982




\

5

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Hi Jim,

The reefing on the two ply sail is easy; it’s a simple two line slab
reef. If you browse the nonsuch.org website, You’ll find a drawing of
how this works on a single ply wishbone sail. The Freedoms do it in
the same way with one exception: for the second reef you have to lower
the wishbone front-end to a near horizontal position. There is only
one reef eye in the luff, and by lowering the wishbone, you also reef
away the small triangle of sail below the wishbone, which remains in
function when you put in the first reef.

Best, and good luck finding a suitable boat,

Michel Capel



— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “James Fitch”
<chefcapn@…> wrote:

Alan-
I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient
sailing
rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my retirement
home and
one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes about shortening
sail;
the boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap around sails and it
is 700
miles away and I am trying to find out as much as I can about it
before I
make a bid and a trip to view it in the flesh. Any and all input
would be
wonderful and much appreciated - Thanks and great sail log-

Cap’n Jimy

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…> wrote:

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

6

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


Mine was converted from the wishbone rig so I can’t help but I
see Michel answered and he is very knowledgeable as he had an F-33 wishbone
rig and now has an F-44 with wishbones.

I was told that one reason many converted from the wrap around sails (some
kept the wishbones but added tracks) was the difficulty of lowering the sails
due to friction.

Alan



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of James Fitch
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:42 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] F-33 handling in fairly strong wind…

\





Alan-
I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient sailing
rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my retirement home and
one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes about shortening sail; the
boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap around sails and it is 700 miles
away and I am trying to find out as much as I can about it before I make
a bid and a trip to view it in the flesh. Any and all input would be wonderful
and much appreciated - Thanks and great sail log-

Cap’n Jimy

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…> wrote:




For those interested in the
F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982




\




\

7

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I can confirm the
friction from our brief experience with the original wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering sails to be
excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef the sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the wrap-around sails
appear to be original sails, and are most likely due for replacement anyhow, and
if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I would probably stay with wishbones but add
a mast track and lose the wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig
myself…but I’m not trying to convert any other freedom owners in that
direction)

Barry

Alan Kusinitz wrote:

Mine was converted from the wishbone rig so I can’t help but I see
Michel answered and he is very knowledgeable as he had an F-33 wishbone
rig and now has an F-44 with wishbones.

I was told that one reason many converted from the wrap around sails
(some kept the wishbones but added tracks) was the difficulty of
lowering the sails due to friction.

Alan

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *James Fitch
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:42 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] F-33 handling in fairly strong wind…

Alan-
I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient
sailing rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my
retirement home and one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes
about shortening sail; the boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap
around sails and it is 700 miles away and I am trying to find out as
much as I can about it before I make a bid and a trip to view it in the
flesh. Any and all input would be wonderful and much appreciated -
Thanks and great sail log-

Cap’n Jimy

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…
mailto:akusinitz@...> wrote:

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

8

Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)

Would it help to rig downhauls for the sails?

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL


---- Barry Stellrecht <yak@…> wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I can confirm
the friction from our brief experience with the original wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering sails to be
excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef the sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the wrap-around sails
appear to be original sails, and are most likely due for replacement anyhow, and
if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I would probably stay with wishbones but add
a mast track and lose the wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig
myself…but I’m not trying to convert any other freedom owners in that
direction)

Barry

Alan Kusinitz wrote:

Mine was converted from the wishbone rig so I can’t help but I see
Michel answered and he is very knowledgeable as he had an F-33 wishbone
rig and now has an F-44 with wishbones.

I was told that one reason many converted from the wrap around sails
(some kept the wishbones but added tracks) was the difficulty of
lowering the sails due to friction.

Alan

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *James Fitch
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:42 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] F-33 handling in fairly strong wind…

Alan-
I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient
sailing rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my
retirement home and one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes
about shortening sail; the boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap
around sails and it is 700 miles away and I am trying to find out as
much as I can about it before I make a bid and a trip to view it in the
flesh. Any and all input would be wonderful and much appreciated -
Thanks and great sail log-

Cap’n Jimy

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…
mailto:akusinitz@...> wrote:

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

Yahoo! Groups Links

–

9

Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)

Would it help to rig downhauls for the sails?

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL


---- Barry Stellrecht <yak@…> wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I can confirm
the friction from our brief experience with the original wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering sails to be
excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef the sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the wrap-around sails
appear to be original sails, and are most likely due for replacement anyhow, and
if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I would probably stay with wishbones but add
a mast track and lose the wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig
myself…but I’m not trying to convert any other freedom owners in that
direction)

Barry

Alan Kusinitz wrote:

Mine was converted from the wishbone rig so I can’t help but I see
Michel answered and he is very knowledgeable as he had an F-33 wishbone
rig and now has an F-44 with wishbones.

I was told that one reason many converted from the wrap around sails
(some kept the wishbones but added tracks) was the difficulty of
lowering the sails due to friction.

Alan

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *James Fitch
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:42 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] F-33 handling in fairly strong wind…

Alan-
I have great faith in the unstayed Cat Ketch rig as a efficient
sailing rig and I am on the verge of purchasing one to use as my
retirement home and one thing that I am wondering about is how one goes
about shortening sail; the boat I’m looking at is the old rig with wrap
around sails and it is 700 miles away and I am trying to find out as
much as I can about it before I make a bid and a trip to view it in the
flesh. Any and all input would be wonderful and much appreciated -
Thanks and great sail log-

Cap’n Jimy

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:53 PM, Alan <akusinitz@…
mailto:akusinitz@...> wrote:

For those interested in the F-33 I just came back from 2 days of
sailing in fairly strong wind.
We sailed from Boston to Provincetown the first day, anchored
overnight then returned the next next day. About 50 miles the first
day and 60 the second (due to tacking for part of the trip.
Day 1
The first day winds were 25-30 knots most of the trip. Waves 3-5 with
occassional 7 (according to the reports, of course they looked larger
to us) Took 7 hours from casting the dock lines to being anchored.
We were wing on wing or broad reaching the whole way, close reach
into the harbor. Our maximum speed through the water was 11.9 knots
(we did a lot of surfing).
I have sails with very large roach about 20% above my previous sails.
Day 1 was with main and mizzen with 1 reef.
The boat was very stable as usual (I guess due to the long partial
full keel - mine is a shallow draft version not centerboard). The
steering force can be high with the outboard rudder in these
conditions but not a problem. I had a newbie with me and he was able
to steer and avoid jibing easily. We had to steer all day due to a
problem with my Voyager Windvane wheel brake.

Day 2
Beam reaches to close reach to tacking to motoring into Boston harbor
directly into the wind. Took 11 hours. Winds were mostly 20-30 knots
with a 15 minutes period at 40 knots. Weather report gave readings in
that range with gusts to 35 knots. Waves reported 5-7 (seemed higher).

Voyager windvane steered us all day until we started motoring
(figured out and fixed the problem of the previous day).

Double reefed mizzen and single reefed main (due to a gear problem I
couldn’t put in the second reef, thankfully on my new sails I had the
1st reef be a much bigger reduction then on the originals). Since I
couldn’t put in the second reef we let the main luff a bit as needed.
Had we been continuing I would have fixed the problem but given the
conditions it was tough working on the boom .
Top speed 10.9 knots. When beating close much slower as we pounded.
Boat was very stiff and nothing vibrated or flexed (other then the
masts) as we pounded. I was thankful for my large dodger. We only got
wet in the cockpit once in a while. (Temperature was 45 F at night
and around 60F during the day. Windchill with seawater chill - 300F :-
) ).

On the motor in, while we were still outside the harbor headed into
the waves, we took down the main but left up and cross sheeted the
mizzen which gave us some stability. The Yanmar 3GM at 3000 RPm kept
us at 3-4 knots directly into the large short periodicity waves
(keeps us around 7 knots on flat water).

As always a very sea kindly ride and secure feeling in the cockpit.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

Yahoo! Groups Links

–

10

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

If there’s anyone who is using wraparound sails and experiencing
excess friction raising and lowering the sails, consider treating the
inside of the sail sleeve with sailkote. You can buy it in liquid form
and use a bug sprayer to spray the fabric. It makes a very water
repellent and slippery surface that lasts pretty well and should help
quite a bit. I’ve used it on the foot of my other boat’s spinnaker to
help keep it from soaking when it hits the water, and on the carbon
spin pole to keep it moving easily in and out. I’m pretty sure that
it’d at least help with the wraparounds.

Of course, it is also very good on sail slugs. The key is to spray
each slug individually and let it dry before hauling it up the mast.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht <yak@…>
wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I can
confirm the friction from our brief experience with the original
wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering sails
to be excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef the
sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the
wrap-around sails appear to be original sails, and are most likely due
for replacement anyhow, and if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I would
probably stay with wishbones but add a mast track and lose the
wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig myself…but I’m not
trying to convert any other freedom owners in that direction)

Barry

11

Posted by Mark Edwards (markedwards55@…>)

One of the important things to know about raising and lowering the
wrap around sails on the cat ketch rigged Freedoms is that the
outhaul has to be released. On these sails, the outhaul pulls the
clews aft forcing the wishbones forward. These are restrained by
the “boom lash” which bears around the aft face of mast. If this
remains tight, you are working against much more than sail friction
to raise and lower the sails. Whether raising or lowering or
reefing, I would suggest first easing the outhauls. Mark Edwards

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

If there’s anyone who is using wraparound sails and experiencing
excess friction raising and lowering the sails, consider treating
the
inside of the sail sleeve with sailkote. You can buy it in liquid
form
and use a bug sprayer to spray the fabric. It makes a very water
repellent and slippery surface that lasts pretty well and should
help
quite a bit. I’ve used it on the foot of my other boat’s spinnaker
to
help keep it from soaking when it hits the water, and on the carbon
spin pole to keep it moving easily in and out. I’m pretty sure that
it’d at least help with the wraparounds.

Of course, it is also very good on sail slugs. The key is to spray
each slug individually and let it dry before hauling it up the mast.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht <yak@>
wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I
can
confirm the friction from our brief experience with the original
wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering
sails
to be excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef
the
sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the
wrap-around sails appear to be original sails, and are most likely
due
for replacement anyhow, and if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I
would
probably stay with wishbones but add a mast track and lose the
wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig myself…but I’m not
trying to convert any other freedom owners in that direction)

Barry

12

Posted by James Fitch (chefcapn@…>)
Lance- et al- If anyone could shed some light on the whole sail shortening procedure and at what wind speeds these steps are taken- I am a novice to Cat Ketches and am looking at several freedom 33— thanks to all---------- jim fitch 707-623-4149
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Mark Edwards <markedwards55@…> wrote:




One of the important things to know about raising and lowering the
wrap around sails on the cat ketch rigged Freedoms is that the
outhaul has to be released. On these sails, the outhaul pulls the
clews aft forcing the wishbones forward. These are restrained by
the “boom lash” which bears around the aft face of mast. If this
remains tight, you are working against much more than sail friction
to raise and lower the sails. Whether raising or lowering or
reefing, I would suggest first easing the outhauls. Mark Edwards

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

If there’s anyone who is using wraparound sails and experiencing
excess friction raising and lowering the sails, consider treating
the
inside of the sail sleeve with sailkote. You can buy it in liquid
form
and use a bug sprayer to spray the fabric. It makes a very water
repellent and slippery surface that lasts pretty well and should
help
quite a bit. I’ve used it on the foot of my other boat’s spinnaker
to
help keep it from soaking when it hits the water, and on the carbon
spin pole to keep it moving easily in and out. I’m pretty sure that
it’d at least help with the wraparounds.

Of course, it is also very good on sail slugs. The key is to spray
each slug individually and let it dry before hauling it up the mast.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht <yak@>
wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I
can
confirm the friction from our brief experience with the original
wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering
sails
to be excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef
the
sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the
wrap-around sails appear to be original sails, and are most likely
due
for replacement anyhow, and if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I
would
probably stay with wishbones but add a mast track and lose the
wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig myself…but I’m not
trying to convert any other freedom owners in that direction)

Barry





\

13

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


The exact lines and details will vary by rig setup. On my
F-33 which has sails on tracks and single line reefing I have two reefs for
each sail. (Deeper then normal reef points so no third reef but my sails
are also 20% larger than normal).
One of the really nice things about the freestanding masts is they
flex in the gusts if sailing with too much sail up and so the boat is not so
sensitive and reefing can occur (or not) over a wide range. The full
battens also allow one to let the sails luff a little to depower without having
the sails flutter excessively.

One has many options with the two sails as to which to reef
first and I find many combinations work well.
To reef I lower the halyard to the spots I marked on the halyard
for the reefs. Let the sheet and vang slack (this is important so the boom can
rise as you tighten the reef lines). Then crank the reef line until it’s
the reef points are at the boom. Then adjust the sheet and vang. I do all
this from the cockpit although tightening the reef line can take some effort
due to the friction in the single line setup.

The excess sail sits in the lazyjacks (I have mack packs which
have more lazy jack lines then the original setup).

I find that although one doesn’t need to reef early due to
the mast flex and forgiving nature of the boat its good to reef early when
going to windward because with the shallow draft if the boat is overpowered
there is a lot of leeway/sideslipping.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of James Fitch
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:14 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: F-33 handling in fairly strong
wind…

\





Lance- et al-
If anyone could shed some light on the whole sail shortening
procedure and at what wind speeds these steps are taken- I am a novice to Cat
Ketches and am looking at several freedom 33— thanks to all----------
jim fitch 707-623-4149

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Mark Edwards <markedwards55@…> wrote:




One of the important things to know about raising
and lowering the
wrap around sails on the cat ketch rigged Freedoms is that the
outhaul has to be released. On these sails, the outhaul pulls the
clews aft forcing the wishbones forward. These are restrained by
the “boom lash” which bears around the aft face of mast. If this
remains tight, you are working against much more than sail friction
to raise and lower the sails. Whether raising or lowering or
reefing, I would suggest first easing the outhauls. Mark Edwards

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“lance_ryley”


<lance_ryley@…>
wrote:

If there’s anyone who is using wraparound sails and experiencing
excess friction raising and lowering the sails, consider treating
the
inside of the sail sleeve with sailkote. You can buy it in liquid
form
and use a bug sprayer to spray the fabric. It makes a very water
repellent and slippery surface that lasts pretty well and should
help
quite a bit. I’ve used it on the foot of my other boat’s spinnaker
to
help keep it from soaking when it hits the water, and on the carbon
spin pole to keep it moving easily in and out. I’m pretty sure that
it’d at least help with the wraparounds.

Of course, it is also very good on sail slugs. The key is to spray
each slug individually and let it dry before hauling it up the mast.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht
<yak@>
wrote:

I am currently in the midst of a refit including a re-rig, but I
can
confirm the friction from our brief experience with the original
wishbone sails.

I personally found the amount of friction raising and lowering
sails
to be excessive, even without having high winds forcing me to reef
the
sails.

I would not be surprised if you found like we did that the
wrap-around sails appear to be original sails, and are most likely
due
for replacement anyhow, and if I wanted a normal cat ketch rig I
would
probably stay with wishbones but add a mast track and lose the
wrap-arounds. (I’m converting to a junk rig myself…but I’m not
trying to convert any other freedom owners in that direction)

Barry







\






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Attachment: (image/jpeg) image002.jpg [not stored]

14

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Jim,
I’ll defer to alan regarding the specifics around the F-33. On my old
F-40 CK, the mantra was ‘reef early - reef often.’ The mizzen is so
large on the cat ketches that they can induce a fair amount of weather
helm. It’s hard to notice if you’ve got hydraulic steering, but a
quick look over the stern at the gullywash coming off the rudder and
you know it’s time to reef. For that reason, on Bright Star, the order
was usually:
First Mizzen Reef @ around 15
Second Mizzen Reef @ 20 if beating, flatten the main as much as possible.
First main reef @ 20 if reaching.
Then second mizzen reef, second main reef, drop the mizzen, drop the
main - you’d be surprised at how well the cat ketches sail in survival
conditions with bare poles.

In Glory, we don’t even think about reefing the main until it’s above
20 kts. Your mileage may vary.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “James Fitch”
<chefcapn@…> wrote:

Lance- et al-
If anyone could shed some light on the whole sail shortening
procedure
and at what wind speeds these steps are taken- I am a novice to Cat
Ketches
and am looking at several freedom 33— thanks to all---------- jim
fitch
707-623-4149

15

Posted by James Fitch (chefcapn@…>)
Lance- Thanks for the email- the boat I’m looking at is a 33 Cat Ketch w/ a center board. The sails are the wrap around type, I guest this is the stock rig. I am wondering about overcoming the friction of the sails around the masts- and what could be used to reduce it - also if the reefing is different for a double sided sails; if so how?
jim fitchOn Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 1:47 PM, lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:





Jim,
I’ll defer to alan regarding the specifics around the F-33. On my old
F-40 CK, the mantra was ‘reef early - reef often.’ The mizzen is so
large on the cat ketches that they can induce a fair amount of weather
helm. It’s hard to notice if you’ve got hydraulic steering, but a
quick look over the stern at the gullywash coming off the rudder and
you know it’s time to reef. For that reason, on Bright Star, the order
was usually:
First Mizzen Reef @ around 15
Second Mizzen Reef @ 20 if beating, flatten the main as much as possible.
First main reef @ 20 if reaching.
Then second mizzen reef, second main reef, drop the mizzen, drop the
main - you’d be surprised at how well the cat ketches sail in survival
conditions with bare poles.

In Glory, we don’t even think about reefing the main until it’s above
20 kts. Your mileage may vary.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “James Fitch”
<chefcapn@…> wrote:

Lance- et al-
If anyone could shed some light on the whole sail shortening
procedure
and at what wind speeds these steps are taken- I am a novice to Cat
Ketches
and am looking at several freedom 33— thanks to all---------- jim
fitch
707-623-4149




\

16

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


I guess its worth mentioning that the condition and shape of
your sails make a significant difference on their affect and when to reef. My
original sails were either cut full or had stretched and lost shape so reefing
earlier was in order. I agree with Lance it’s a good idea to reef the mizzen to
reduce helm although I find that adjusting sheet tension is all it usually
takes to balance the rig. When the wind is forward of the beam.

My current sails are cut very flat in their lower portion and
have a significant twist. When I tighten the outhauls that also has a beneficial
and significant affect in depowering.

Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of James Fitch
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:41 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: F-33 handling in fairly strong
wind…

\





Lance-
Thanks for the email- the boat I’m looking at is a 33 Cat
Ketch w/ a center board. The sails are the wrap around type, I guest this is
the stock rig. I am wondering about overcoming the friction of the sails around
the masts- and what could be used to reduce it - also if the reefing is
different for a double sided sails; if so how?

jim fitch

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 1:47 PM, lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:




Jim,
I’ll defer to alan regarding the specifics around the F-33. On my old
F-40 CK, the mantra was ‘reef early - reef often.’ The mizzen is so
large on the cat ketches that they can induce a fair amount of weather
helm. It’s hard to notice if you’ve got hydraulic steering, but a
quick look over the stern at the gullywash coming off the rudder and
you know it’s time to reef. For that reason, on Bright Star, the order
was usually:
First Mizzen Reef @ around 15
Second Mizzen Reef @ 20 if beating, flatten the main as much as possible.
First main reef @ 20 if reaching.
Then second mizzen reef, second main reef, drop the mizzen, drop the
main - you’d be surprised at how well the cat ketches sail in survival
conditions with bare poles.

In Glory, we don’t even think about reefing the main until it’s above
20 kts. Your mileage may vary.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“James Fitch”


<chefcapn@…> wrote:

Lance- et al-
If anyone could shed some light on the whole sail shortening
procedure
and at what wind speeds these steps are taken- I am a novice to Cat
Ketches
and am looking at several freedom 33— thanks to all---------- jim
fitch
707-623-4149





\




\