F33 CK - change of rig

Archives
1

Posted by spjwpja (spjwpja@…>)

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch. The main problem is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the wishbone booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach. I would rig the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The large roach should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although perhaps I will not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam - but this seems
a minor problems since they should still be possible to swing to over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone else tried this?

Philip

2

Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event (European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja” <spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch. The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach. I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam - but this
seems
a minor problems since they should still be possible to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone else tried this?

Philip

3

Posted by Ian Macpherson (muckingabout@…>)

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson


— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:

\

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip




\

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group “freedomyachts2003” on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

\

4

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Ian,
normally you’d just go to the “Photos” link on the left hand menu
bar, but it appears we’re over our viewing quota for the day.

Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Ian Macpherson
<muckingabout@y…> wrote:

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

5

Posted by spjwpja (spjwpja@…>)

Thanks Mike,

At this stage I am looking at using the Antal system - they do a
track specially designed to glue to CF mast with low friction cars -
and looking at the large roach sails made by Steve Haarstick. I’ll
tell you how I get on in due course (also depending on whether I can
afford the changes). Your comments on the strain on the boom kicker
is interesing; the more I have thought and read about this the less
sense it makes to dispense with the wishbones.


Philip





— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I sold my
F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able to swing
out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional booms and I
was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event (European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this board) that
almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja” <spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch. The main
problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor performance.
To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach. I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although perhaps I
will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam - but this
seems
a minor problems since they should still be possible to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone else tried
this?

Philip

6

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

I have boomkickers and don;t see any problem. They make a larger one they don;t advertise and I use that for the main.
But, a wishbone should have many other advantages.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: spjwpja
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig
Thanks Mike,At this stage I am looking at using the Antal system - they do a track specially designed to glue to CF mast with low friction cars - and looking at the large roach sails made by Steve Haarstick. I’ll tell you how I get on in due course (also depending on whether I can afford the changes). Your comments on the strain on the boom kicker is interesing; the more I have thought and read about this the less sense it makes to dispense with the wishbones. Philip — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel” <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:> Philip,> > I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I sold my F33/35 > CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of Tom Wylie (of > Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance rig. If you > select your track and cars carefully, you must be able to swing out > your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make sure you let > the sails build by someone with experience with unstayed rigs; the > mast bend is different and therefore the roach is affected in a > different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what you decide, > I’m sure there are many more catketch owners interested in rig > improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to conventional booms. > Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional booms and I was > amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using the > wishbones, these forces are different and I would think far less > than with booms. During this same sailing event (European Freedom > Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK with a > revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this board) that almost > kept up with two F44’s ! > > Good luck.> > Mike> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja” <spjwpja@y…> > wrote:> > I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch. The main problem > is > > ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor performance. To > > solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the wishbone > booms, > > add track and fully battened sails with large roach. I would rig > the > > wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be achieved by > > simply turning the most 180 degress and using the boom lift > > attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The large roach > should > > add lift with reduced drag = more power.> > > > I can see very few problems with this plan although perhaps I will > not > > be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam - but this > seems > > a minor problems since they should still be possible to swing to > over > > 90 degress.> > > > Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone else tried this?> > > > Philip

7

Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)

I can’t access the photo section right now, but I’m quite sure that
the photo is still there. It’s a dark hulled F33/35 CK photographed
dead on the bow with the sails winged out. You can see the roach
and full battens and the loose luff. There is no luff track, just a
tight wire on which the luff is hanked.

cheers,
Michel


— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Ian Macpherson
<muckingabout@y…> wrote:

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

8

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Really appreciate the pictures. I’m curious about one thing. With a mizzen staysail Freedom recommended running backstays due to the point loading on the mast. Doesn’ the wire attached just at the top o fthe mast and deck create similar point loading? Or is that not the case or simply not a problem?
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982

----- Original Message -----
From: Helmut Flintrop
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 3:28 AM
Subject: AW: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig




Hi,
I am the new owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike Capel mentioned he sailed last week end. Before purchasing the FR44 I sailed the FR35CB ”FLOODTIDE” for 24 years which I ordered in 1981at the London boat show. The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a few days after first rigging the through battened sails without using a track. Trim could be better and today after some years experience they are optimal trimmed and ”Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut Flintrop
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----Von: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Ian MacphersonGesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2005 11:09An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comBetreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rigHello MichelCan you please tell me how to find the pics of Samielon this board?I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and amvery interested in this whole subject.RegardsIan Macpherson— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:---------------------------------Philip,I like your plan! I did not try it myself because Isold my F33/35 CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas ofTom Wylie (of Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performancerig. If you select your track and cars carefully, you must be ableto swing out your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Makesure you let the sails build by someone with experience withunstayed rigs; the mast bend is different and therefore the roach isaffected in a different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know whatyou decide, I’m sure there are many more catketch ownersinterested in rig improvements beyond the ordinary conversion toconventional booms. Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventionalbooms and I was amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Usingthe wishbones, these forces are different and I wouldthink far less than with booms. During this same sailing event(European Freedom Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CKwith a revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on thisboard) that almost kept up with two F44’s ! Good luck.Mike— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”<spjwpja@y…> wrote:> I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.The main problem is > ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poorperformance. To > solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep thewishbone booms, > add track and fully battened sails with large roach.I would rig the > wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could beachieved by > simply turning the most 180 degress and using theboom lift > attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). Thelarge roach should > add lift with reduced drag = more power.> > I can see very few problems with this plan althoughperhaps I will not > be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam- but this seems > a minor problems since they should still be possibleto swing to over > 90 degress.> > Is there any problem with this plan and has anyoneelse tried this?> > Philip --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group “freedomyachts2003” on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!Terms of Service. ---------------------------------

9

Posted by Brian Guptil (sailordude@…>)


Running backs
for stay sail

True enough,
but it is adjusted to reduce the bending by opposing the load path of the stay
sail halyard

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Kusinitz
Sent: Friday, September 02,
2005 11:51 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003]
Re: F33 CK - change of rig

Really appreciate the pictures. I’m
curious about one thing. With a mizzen staysail Freedom recommended running
backstays due to the point loading on the mast. Doesn’ the wire attached just
at the top o fthe mast and deck create similar point loading? Or is that not
the case or simply not a problem?


Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982



----- Original Message -----


From: Helmut
Flintrop


To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com



Sent: Friday,
September 02, 2005 3:28 AM


Subject: AW:
[freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig

\



Hi,
I am the new
owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike Capel mentioned he sailed last week end.
Before purchasing the FR44 I sailed the FR35CB ”FLOODTIDE” for 24
years which I ordered in 1981at the London
boat show. The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a few
days after first rigging the through battened sails without using a track. Trim
could be better and today after some years experience they are optimal trimmed
and ”Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut
Flintrop

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von:
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Ian Macpherson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August
2005 11:09
An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003]
Re: F33 CK - change of rig
Hello
Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of
Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system
and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson


— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…>
wrote:

\

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself
because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas
of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high
performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be
able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast.
Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know
what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with
conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker.
Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat
ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively
poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to
keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large
roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this
could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using
the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea).
The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan
although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of
the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be
possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has
anyone
else tried this?

Philip


\

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group

“freedomyachts2003” on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group,

send an email to:
freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is

subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.





\

10

Posted by spjwpja (spjwpja@…>)

Sadly I can not access the pictures - any chance of sending them
directly to p.asherson@…?





— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Helmut Flintrop”
<dr.flintrop@f…> wrote:

Hi,

I am the new owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike Capel mentioned he
sailed last week end. Before purchasing the FR44 I sailed the
FR35CB
“FLOODTIDE” for 24 years which I ordered in 1981at the London boat
show.
The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a few days after
first
rigging the through battened sails without using a track. Trim
could be
better and today after some years experience they are optimal
trimmed
and “Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut Flintrop

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Ian
Macpherson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2005 11:09
An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

SPONSORED LINKS
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+schools&w1=Sailing+schools&

w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sail
ing

&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=zBpxSILtAou3owRHAWzRug> schools
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+instruction&w1=Sailing+scho

ols&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=
Sai

ling&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=IkOi4vIpVMlcI0pJ2f9cqg>
instruction
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+lesson&w1=Sailing+schools&w

2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Saili
ng&

w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=A6aj6h7xZFo6dNcg-seYhw> lesson

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+adventure&w1=Sailing+school

s&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sa
ili

ng&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=c6vcBZ_RnFN6LV5uhKC5og>
adventure
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2=Saili

ng+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing&w6=O
cea

n+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=6Ghzq3SVEPHSJ6Ws_FeYSg> Ocean
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ocean+sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2

=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailin
g&w

6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=TUx9HLr3gnV9JT5xWaRaTg> sailing

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

11

Posted by Ian Macpherson (muckingabout@…>)

I have forwarded you the photos that Dr. Flintrop
sent.

I’m not having much luck opening the Photos folder on
our newsgroup page, and it seems from the messages
that it is not just me. Is anyone in charge of looking
after it?

Are Dr. Flintrop’s photos of Samiel these same ones
that Michel Capel was referring to as being in the
Photos folder?



— spjwpja <spjwpja@…> wrote:

\

Sadly I can not access the pictures - any chance of
sending them
directly to p.asherson@…?





— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Helmut
Flintrop”
<dr.flintrop@f…> wrote:

Hi,

I am the new owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike
Capel mentioned he
sailed last week end. Before purchasing the FR44 I
sailed the
FR35CB
“FLOODTIDE” for 24 years which I ordered in 1981at
the London boat
show.
The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a
few days after
first
rigging the through battened sails without using a
track. Trim
could be
better and today after some years experience they
are optimal
trimmed
and “Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut Flintrop

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im
Auftrag von Ian
Macpherson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2005 11:09
An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change
of rig

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of
Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and
am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high
performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be
able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast.
Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know
what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker.
Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep
the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large
roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could
be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan
although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the
beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be
possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email

to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

SPONSORED LINKS
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+schools&w1=Sailing+schools&

w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sail
ing

&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=zBpxSILtAou3owRHAWzRug>
schools

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+instruction&w1=Sailing+scho

ols&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=
Sai

ling&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=IkOi4vIpVMlcI0pJ2f9cqg>

instruction

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+lesson&w1=Sailing+schools&w

2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Saili
ng&

w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=A6aj6h7xZFo6dNcg-seYhw>
lesson

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+adventure&w1=Sailing+school

s&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sa
ili

ng&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=c6vcBZ_RnFN6LV5uhKC5og>

adventure

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2=Saili

ng+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing&w6=O
cea

n+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=6Ghzq3SVEPHSJ6Ws_FeYSg>
Ocean
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ocean+sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2

=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailin
g&w

6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=TUx9HLr3gnV9JT5xWaRaTg>
sailing

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

  •   Visit your group "freedomyachts2003

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomyachts2003 "
on the web.

  •   To unsubscribe from this group, send an

email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<mailto:freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscrib

e>

  •   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

Yahoo! Terms of

Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ .





SPONSORED LINKS

Sailing schools
Sailing instruction
Sailing lesson
Sailing adventure
Sailing
Ocean sailing

\

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group “freedomyachts2003” on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.

\

12

Posted by spjwpja (spjwpja@…>)

Helmut,

Thanks. I was sent the pictures which look great. Can I ask you a
few questions about the rig:

(1) How do you fit the leach reefing lines - are they run along the
wishbone booms, then down the mast and back along the cabin top to
the cockpit?

(2) Do you have two reefs in the main?

(3) Is the luff reinforced with wire?

(4) Are there some kind of loops that keep the luff of the sail
attached to the mast?

(5) I guess that with the larger roach you get a good performance to
windward?

Thanks for any advise on this.

Philip













Prof Philip Asherson MRCPsych, Phd
Box P080
MRC Social Genetic Developmental Psychiatry
Institute of Psychiatry
King’s College London
De Crespigny Park
London, UK
SE5 8AF
Telephone: 44 20 7848 0078 (Office)
44 20 7848 5363 (Administration)



-----“Ian Macpherson” <i.mac@…> wrote: -----

To: <p.asherson@…>
From: “Ian Macpherson” <i.mac@…>
Date: 09/03/2005 07:19AM
Subject: Freedom photos

Let?s hope these work, Ian








— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Helmut Flintrop”
<dr.flintrop@f…> wrote:

Hi,

I am the new owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike Capel mentioned he
sailed last week end. Before purchasing the FR44 I sailed the
FR35CB
“FLOODTIDE” for 24 years which I ordered in 1981at the London boat
show.
The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a few days after
first
rigging the through battened sails without using a track. Trim
could be
better and today after some years experience they are optimal
trimmed
and “Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut Flintrop

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Ian
Macpherson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2005 11:09
An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

SPONSORED LINKS
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+schools&w1=Sailing+schools&

w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sail
ing

&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=zBpxSILtAou3owRHAWzRug> schools
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+instruction&w1=Sailing+scho

ols&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=
Sai

ling&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=IkOi4vIpVMlcI0pJ2f9cqg>
instruction
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+lesson&w1=Sailing+schools&w

2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Saili
ng&

w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=A6aj6h7xZFo6dNcg-seYhw> lesson

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+adventure&w1=Sailing+school

s&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sa
ili

ng&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=c6vcBZ_RnFN6LV5uhKC5og>
adventure
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2=Saili

ng+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing&w6=O
cea

n+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=6Ghzq3SVEPHSJ6Ws_FeYSg> Ocean
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ocean+sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2

=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailin
g&w

6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=TUx9HLr3gnV9JT5xWaRaTg> sailing

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

13

Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Well ! I hope all you guys that cant wait to throw o ut the wishbone, please contact me, I , for one, want the old bones back !!! S o far, incredibly, I have not been able to find any.Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:
Philip,I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I sold my F33/35 CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of Tom Wylie (of Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance rig. If you select your track and cars carefully, you must be able to swing out your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make sure you let the sails build by someone with experience with unstayed rigs; the mast bend is different and therefore the roach is affected in a different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what you decide, I’m sure there are many more catketch owners interested in rig improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to conventional booms. Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional booms and I was amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using the wishbones, these forces are
different and I would think far less than with booms. During this same sailing event (European Freedom Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK with a revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this board) that almost kept up with two F44’s ! Good luck.Mike— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja” <spjwpja@y…> wrote:> I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch. The main problem is > ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor performance. To > solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the wishbone booms, > add track and fully battened sails with large roach. I would rig the > wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be achieved by > simply turning the most 180 degress and using the boom lift > attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The large roach should > add lift with reduced drag = more power.>

I can see very few problems with this plan although perhaps I will not > be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam - but this seems > a minor problems since they should still be possible to swing to over > 90 degress.> > Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone else tried this?> > Philip__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

14

Posted by gjschouten (schouten@…>)

Hi,
I am the designer of this rig and will try to post a technical
description on this board some time this week.
Gio Schouten

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja” <spjwpja@y…> wrote:

Helmut,

Thanks. I was sent the pictures which look great. Can I ask you a
few questions about the rig:

(1) How do you fit the leach reefing lines - are they run along the
wishbone booms, then down the mast and back along the cabin top to
the cockpit?

(2) Do you have two reefs in the main?

(3) Is the luff reinforced with wire?

(4) Are there some kind of loops that keep the luff of the sail
attached to the mast?

(5) I guess that with the larger roach you get a good performance to
windward?

Thanks for any advise on this.

Philip

Prof Philip Asherson MRCPsych, Phd
Box P080
MRC Social Genetic Developmental Psychiatry
Institute of Psychiatry
King’s College London
De Crespigny Park
London, UK
SE5 8AF
Telephone: 44 20 7848 0078 (Office)
44 20 7848 5363 (Administration)

-----“Ian Macpherson” <i.mac@v…> wrote: -----

To: <p.asherson@i…>
From: “Ian Macpherson” <i.mac@v…>
Date: 09/03/2005 07:19AM
Subject: Freedom photos

Let?s hope these work, Ian

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Helmut Flintrop”
<dr.flintrop@f…> wrote:

Hi,

I am the new owner of the FR44 IVORY GOOSE Mike Capel mentioned he
sailed last week end. Before purchasing the FR44 I sailed the
FR35CB
“FLOODTIDE” for 24 years which I ordered in 1981at the London boat
show.
The included photos of the FR35CB “Samiel” I made a few days after
first
rigging the through battened sails without using a track. Trim
could be
better and today after some years experience they are optimal
trimmed
and “Samiel” is extremely fast.

Helmut Flintrop

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von Ian
Macpherson
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. August 2005 11:09
An: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F33 CK - change of rig

Hello Michel

Can you please tell me how to find the pics of Samiel
on this board?

I’m about to convert my F40CC to a Wylie system and am
very interested in this whole subject.

Regards

Ian Macpherson

— Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:

Philip,

I like your plan! I did not try it myself because I
sold my F33/35
CK beforehand, but if you indeed follow the ideas of
Tom Wylie (of
Wyliecat) you must be able to build a high performance
rig. If you
select your track and cars carefully, you must be able
to swing out
your sails far enough, i.e. forward of the mast. Make
sure you let
the sails build by someone with experience with
unstayed rigs; the
mast bend is different and therefore the roach is
affected in a
different way when the wind pipes up. Let us know what
you decide,
I’m sure there are many more catketch owners
interested in rig
improvements beyond the ordinary conversion to
conventional booms.
Last weekend I had a sail on a F44 with conventional
booms and I was
amazed by the forces exerted on the boom kicker. Using
the
wishbones, these forces are different and I would
think far less
than with booms. During this same sailing event
(European Freedom
Meeting in the Netherlands) there was an F33/35 CK
with a
revolutionary rig (see pics of S/Y Samiel on this
board) that almost
kept up with two F44’s !

Good luck.

Mike

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “spjwpja”
<spjwpja@y…>
wrote:

I have the old wrap around sails on my cat ketch.
The main problem
is
ease of handling and stowing. Also relatively poor
performance. To
solve these problems with the rig I plan to keep the
wishbone
booms,
add track and fully battened sails with large roach.
I would rig
the
wishbone like on a tanton or wyliecat; this could be
achieved by
simply turning the most 180 degress and using the
boom lift
attachments (thanks Mike Capel for the idea). The
large roach
should
add lift with reduced drag = more power.

I can see very few problems with this plan although
perhaps I will
not
be able to swing the boom so far forward of the beam

  • but this
    seems

a minor problems since they should still be possible
to swing to
over
90 degress.

Is there any problem with this plan and has anyone
else tried this?

Philip

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group "freedomyachts2003" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of Service.

SPONSORED LINKS
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+schools&w1=Sailing+schools&

w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sail
ing

&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=zBpxSILtAou3owRHAWzRug> schools
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+instruction&w1=Sailing+scho

ols&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=
Sai

ling&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=IkOi4vIpVMlcI0pJ2f9cqg>
instruction
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+lesson&w1=Sailing+schools&w

2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Saili
ng&

w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=A6aj6h7xZFo6dNcg-seYhw> lesson

Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing+adventure&w1=Sailing+school

s&w2=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sa
ili

ng&w6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=c6vcBZ_RnFN6LV5uhKC5og>
adventure
Sailing
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2=Saili

ng+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailing&w6=O
cea

n+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=6Ghzq3SVEPHSJ6Ws_FeYSg> Ocean
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Ocean+sailing&w1=Sailing+schools&w2

=Sailing+instruction&w3=Sailing+lesson&w4=Sailing+adventure&w5=Sailin
g&w

6=Ocean+sailing&c=6&s=121&.sig=TUx9HLr3gnV9JT5xWaRaTg> sailing

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS