Posted by ptecca63 (petecca@…>)
I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed Freedom 35 and am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale tail) keel and the wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.
How much difference is there in the boat’s ability to point? I know
the deep draft will be better. But how much better? Are we talking 1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?
Regards,
Paul
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Paul,
I’ve got a cat ketch so I can’t speak authoratatively on this, but my
understanding is that there is very little performance difference
between the wing and the deep draft.
Lance
Bright Star
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63” <petecca@…>
wrote:
I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed Freedom 35 and
am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale tail) keel and the
wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.How much difference is there in the boat’s ability to point? I
know
the deep draft will be better. But how much better? Are we
talking 1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?Regards,
Paul
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Paul,
For once I disagree with Lance; The deeper the keel, the better the
upwind performance because the pressure and the holding power of the
water increase with the depth. On top of that, wave action created by
wind (not current) works from the surface downwards. At greater depths
there is less leeward movement of the water. Lastly, a deeper keel
needs less ballast to create the same righting moment.
If you can afford the draft in your favorite sailing grounds, go for
the deepest keel.
Regards,
Michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63” <petecca@…>
wrote:
I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed Freedom 35 and am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale tail) keel and the
wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.How much difference is there in the boat’s ability to point? I know
the deep draft will be better. But how much better? Are we talking
1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?Regards,
Paul
Posted by Thomas Hand (freesailah@…>)
I own a deep keel F35. Great upwind performance. Also
have been sailing in up to 26 knots of wind this
summer and have not found a need to reef. I highly
recommend the deep keel.
regards
Gordon
— “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:
Paul,
For once I disagree with Lance; The deeper the keel,
the better the
upwind performance because the pressure and the
holding power of the
water increase with the depth. On top of that, wave
action created by
wind (not current) works from the surface downwards.
At greater depths
there is less leeward movement of the water. Lastly,
a deeper keel
needs less ballast to create the same righting
moment.If you can afford the draft in your favorite sailing
grounds, go for
the deepest keel.Regards,
Michel— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63”
<petecca@…>
wrote:I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed
Freedom 35 and am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale
tail) keel and the
wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from
owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.How much difference is there in the boat’s ability
to point? I know
the deep draft will be better. But how much
better? Are we talking
1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?Regards,
Paul
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Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
BUT, the deeper the keel the deeper the lever arm and that makes the boat heel more also. One of the many factors involved. It is not that simple. If you do not need to reef at 26 knots of true wind, the boat is seriously UNDERCANVASSED.Thomas Hand <freesailah@…> wrote: I own a deep keel F35. Great upwind performance. Alsohave been sailing in up to 26 knots of wind thissummer and have not found a need to reef. I highlyrecommend the deep keel.regards Gordon—
“michel.capel” <michel.capel@yahoo.com> wrote:> Paul,> > For once I disagree with Lance; The deeper the keel,> the better the > upwind performance because the pressure and the> holding power of the > water increase with the depth. On top of that, wave> action created by > wind (not current) works from the surface downwards.> At greater depths > there is less leeward movement of the water. Lastly,> a deeper keel > needs less ballast to create the same righting> moment.> > If you can afford the draft in your favorite sailing> grounds, go for > the deepest keel.> > Regards,> Michel> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63”> <petecca@…> > wrote:>
I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed> Freedom 35 and am > > trying to decide between the deep draft (whale> tail) keel and the > wing > > keel. I would be very interested in hearing from> owners on their > > experience with the boat’s performance upwind. > > > > How much difference is there in the boat’s ability> to point? I know > > the deep draft will be better. But how much> better? Are we talking > 1 > > or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?> > > > Regards,> > > > Paul> >> > > __________________________________________________________Do you Yahoo!?Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.http://new.mail.yahoo.com
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Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Deep keels do go better to winward, No question. Ballast is another matter ! One of best to winward boats ever designed ( won SORC twice ten years apart ) and that I was fortunate enough to be relief helmsman was /is Robin Two Too. Ted Hoods one tonner. THREE Foot Draft. TEN with the board down. Ballast ( stability ) and lift to windward are two separate problems in the equation ! The experiments at C & C yachts demonstrated that same model boat: shoal keel with centerboard and deep draught model, match racing, that in going to windward there was less than 3 degrees difference between them and that the board boat was marginaly faster down wind, on average. If you intend on cruisin Florida and the Bahamas ( East Coast for that matter ) five feet of draught is the max you would wish for. One, of the most popular cruising
boats ever was/is the Morgan OI 41 , mostly for that 4’ 2" draught . Thomas Hand <freesailah@…> wrote: I own a deep keel F35. Great upwind performance. Alsohave been sailing in up to 26 knots of wind thissummer and have not found a need to reef. I highlyrecommend the deep keel.regards Gordon— “michel.capel” <michel.capel@yahoo.com> wrote:> Paul,> > For once I disagree with Lance; The deeper
the keel,> the better the > upwind performance because the pressure and the> holding power of the > water increase with the depth. On top of that, wave> action created by > wind (not current) works from the surface downwards.> At greater depths > there is less leeward movement of the water. Lastly,> a deeper keel > needs less ballast to create the same righting> moment.> > If you can afford the draft in your favorite sailing> grounds, go for > the deepest keel.> > Regards,> Michel> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63”> <petecca@…> > wrote:> >> > I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed> Freedom 35 and am > > trying to decide between the deep draft (whale> tail) keel and
the > wing > > keel. I would be very interested in hearing from> owners on their > > experience with the boat’s performance upwind. > > > > How much difference is there in the boat’s ability> to point? I know > > the deep draft will be better. But how much> better? Are we talking > 1 > > or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?> > > > Regards,> > > > Paul> >> > > __________________________________________________________Do you Yahoo!?Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.http://new.mail.yahoo.com
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Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
That would be my other comment about the deep draft vs wing keel, as
andre pointed out. On a 35’ boat, if you have shoal draft in new
england, there are a lot of places you can go that you can’t with a
deep keel. Try getting into cuttyhunk, or menemsha, with a deep draft
boat.
I agree that in most cases, the deep draft is going to give you
better upwind performance. I suspect it has as much to do with a
cleaner underwater shape as it does with ballast placement, etc, etc.
However, when I looked that the F-35 a few years back, it was pretty
clear that the difference in performance for an F-35 (which is not a
performance boat) between the two keels was negligble.
So it really comes down to what kind of sailing you’re going to do.
Are you going to turn this into a stripped down PHRF boat, race it
around the buoys, or are you going to cruise it? And where?
Bottom line, you’re going to end up with a great boat.
lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:
Deep keels do go better to winward, No question. Ballast is
another matter !
One of best to winward boats ever designed ( won SORC twice ten
years apart ) and that I was fortunate enough to be relief helmsman
was /is Robin Two Too. Ted Hoods one tonner. THREE Foot Draft. TEN
with the board down. Ballast ( stability ) and lift to windward are
two separate problems in the equation !The experiments at C & C yachts demonstrated that same model
boat: shoal keel with centerboard and deep draught model, match
racing, that in going to windward there was less than 3 degrees
difference between them and that the board boat was marginaly faster
down wind, on average.If you intend on cruisin Florida and the Bahamas ( East Coast for
that matter ) five feet of draught is the max you would wish for.
One, of the most popular cruising boats ever was/is the Morgan OI
41 , mostly for that 4’ 2" draught .Thomas Hand <freesailah@…> wrote:
I own a deep keel F35. Great upwind performance. Also
have been sailing in up to 26 knots of wind this
summer and have not found a need to reef. I highly
recommend the deep keel.regards
Gordon
— “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:Paul,
For once I disagree with Lance; The deeper the keel,
the better the
upwind performance because the pressure and the
holding power of the
water increase with the depth. On top of that, wave
action created by
wind (not current) works from the surface downwards.
At greater depths
there is less leeward movement of the water. Lastly,
a deeper keel
needs less ballast to create the same righting
moment.If you can afford the draft in your favorite sailing
grounds, go for
the deepest keel.Regards,
Michel— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63”
<petecca@>
wrote:I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed
Freedom 35 and am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale
tail) keel and the
wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from
owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.How much difference is there in the boat’s ability
to point? I know
the deep draft will be better. But how much
better? Are we talking
1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?Regards,
Paul
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Posted by gnj3508 (gnj@…>)
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ptecca63” <petecca@…>
wrote:
I am considering buying the David Pedrick designed Freedom 35 and
am
trying to decide between the deep draft (whale tail) keel and the
wing
keel. I would be very interested in hearing from owners on their
experience with the boat’s performance upwind.How much difference is there in the boat’s ability to point? I
know
the deep draft will be better. But how much better? Are we
talking 1
or 2 degrees, or more like 5 or 10 degrees?Regards,
Paul
Paul:
I too am a deep keel Freedom 35 sailor. The deep keel points 3-5
degrees closer to the wind than the wing keel. As the wind picks up
that spread widens.
The PHRF on the deep keel is 135 and the wing keel is 144 in our
area. So over all, the wing keel is 9 seconds per mile slower than
the deep keel. Given that the wing is faster dead down wind the 9
seconds must come from up wind points of sail.
I have had my boat in both Western Lake Erie with 20 foot depths and
a rock bottom and now in Pamlico Sound in North Carolina where the
depth is also 20 foot on average but a forgiving mud bottom. I do not
gunk hole, but have had no problem going to most of the areas I want
to go to under sail. That said, you miss a few places for the sailing
performance of the deep keel. Everything is a trade off.
My wife and I went to Maine from Oriental, NC in 2000 and seaside in
a beam or aft sea the boat is a dream to handle.
Regards
Gary