Follow up: Re: Perkins 4.108 with persistently slipping V-belt

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1

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Yesterday, I mounted the new 1/2" wide tothed open flanked V-belt. It
fits perfect on top of the pulleys. No more screeching of the belt!
So I guess the problem is solved.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hi all,

My Perkins 4.108 with standard (? - not sure) Delco alternator has
a
very persistent slipping V-belt since I own the boat, that’s for
2,5
years now. I tightened the belt so much two weeks ago, that the
belt
flung to pieces after a short while. No matter what I do, it keeps
on
slipping. I have numerous replacement belts that I tried. However,
they are all XPZ belts (3/8" wide, 8 mm high, toothed, open
flanked)
and the belt sits deep in the pulleys. The pulleys are wide enough
to
take a 1/2" belt, so it seems. I roughed up the alternator pulley
with a file but this didn’t help.

I finally took the time to study the problem in more depth, and
found
an interesting text on the site of Balmar:

quote:
Balmar - Alternator Output Limits Based On Drive Belts

Another key factor in determining the right alternator for your
system is the width of the belt driving the alternator. Typically,
most marine gas or diesel applications can be broken down into four
groups:

Systems driven by a single v-belt measuring less than 1/2",
Systems driven by a single 1/2" v-belt,
Systems driven by dual or triple v-belts
Systems driven by multi-groove serpentine belts

V-Belts measuring less than 1/2" - Capable of driving alternators
up
to 80 amps (50A @ 24V)with horsepower demands up to three
horsepower.

V-Belts measuring 1/2" - Capable of driving alternators up to 110
amps (65A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to four horsepower.

Multiple V-Belts - Capable of driving alternators up to 300 amps
(220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10 horsepower.

Multi-Groove Serpentine Belt - Capable of driving alternators up to
300 amps (220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10 horsepower.

Exceeding recommended output limits based on belt size will
ultimately lead to belt slippage and premature belt failure, and
potentially to resulting damage to the engine and alternator. DO
NOT
attempt to drive an alternator with an improperly-sized belt. In
addition to potential system damage, use of a high output
alternator
with an undersized belt could result in voiding of both engine and
alternator warranties. Don’t take the chance.

High output alternators generate a substantially increased demand
on
drive belts over that created by standard OEM alternators. Balmar
strongly recommends the use of premium belts, such as “Top Cog” by
Dayco (http://www.daycoproducts.com) and “Green Stripe” by Gates
Rubber (http://www.gates.com) for maximal performance and belt life.

Once installed, proper belt tensioning is essential for optimal
performance. When installing a new belt, run your engine for 15 to
30
minutes after initial tensioning. Re-tension after shutting down.
Repeat. Continue to inspect belt tension prior to engine start up
each time you use the boat. Tension whenever your belt deflection
exceeds engine manufacturer’s specifications.

unquote

I mounted a new Delco alternator a few monthes ago and a battery
monitor. The Delco outputs as much as 75-80 amps, I found. I
thought
it was rated @ 55 amps max.

Based on the Balmar info, my current 3/8" V-belt should - just -
do.
But I’m going to exchange it for an SPA belt (1/2" wide, 10 mm
deep,
covered walls (I hope more friction on the walles), no teeth) next
week and see what happens.

I also found a serpentine conversion kit for the Perkins 4.108 from
TA Diesels at $575 ex shipping. Apparently, the belt slippage
problem
is so common on the 4.108, 4.107 and Westerbeke 40 that TAD makes
this conversion kit. I hope the heavier 1/2" V-belt will do the job
as it should with a standard alternator.

Questions to you:

  1. Am I the only one with a persistently slipping 3/8" V-belt or am
    I
    the only one with a 3/8" belt?
  2. What belts are you using on your 4.108s?

Best,
Michel Capel
F44 #4 Alabama Queen

2

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

Make sure you test it under worst-case conditions. Let me explain:

We sailed to Alaska on a friend’s boat; he has a 200A alternator with dual
belts. In Seattle, he never had any problems.

Going from Seattle to Alaska and back (over 2000 miles, and not too much
sailing) he was buying every alternator belt he could find in most all ports
'cause they kept breaking. One time it knocked off the oil pressure sender, and
sent oil all over the place. (Fortunately, I wasn’t aboard then!)

The reason: Normally he stayed in a marina, and kept the batteries charged up,
only going out for weekends mostly…so the batteries never could take 200 amps
(or anything even close), so the alternator (and thus its belts) never got a
full load.

Then while cruising, there were many nights spent on the hook (frequently two
nights), long enough to take the batteries pretty far down…and then when the
engine went on, the alternator got a full load. And then the fun started.

So, make sure you fully load the alternator before you declare it all good.

And moral of the story #2: If you need dual belts, get good matched pairs of
belts. (Gates has an excellent reputation.)

Barry

michel.capel wrote:

Yesterday, I mounted the new 1/2" wide tothed open flanked V-belt. It
fits perfect on top of the pulleys. No more screeching of the belt!
So I guess the problem is solved.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hi all,

My Perkins 4.108 with standard (? - not sure) Delco alternator has
a
very persistent slipping V-belt since I own the boat, that’s for
2,5
years now. I tightened the belt so much two weeks ago, that the
belt
flung to pieces after a short while. No matter what I do, it keeps
on
slipping. I have numerous replacement belts that I tried. However,
they are all XPZ belts (3/8" wide, 8 mm high, toothed, open
flanked)
and the belt sits deep in the pulleys. The pulleys are wide enough
to
take a 1/2" belt, so it seems. I roughed up the alternator pulley
with a file but this didn’t help.

I finally took the time to study the problem in more depth, and
found
an interesting text on the site of Balmar:

quote:
Balmar - Alternator Output Limits Based On Drive Belts

Another key factor in determining the right alternator for your
system is the width of the belt driving the alternator. Typically,
most marine gas or diesel applications can be broken down into four
groups:

Systems driven by a single v-belt measuring less than 1/2",
Systems driven by a single 1/2" v-belt,
Systems driven by dual or triple v-belts
Systems driven by multi-groove serpentine belts

V-Belts measuring less than 1/2" - Capable of driving alternators
up
to 80 amps (50A @ 24V)with horsepower demands up to three
horsepower.
V-Belts measuring 1/2" - Capable of driving alternators up to 110
amps (65A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to four horsepower.

Multiple V-Belts - Capable of driving alternators up to 300 amps
(220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10 horsepower.

Multi-Groove Serpentine Belt - Capable of driving alternators up to
300 amps (220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10 horsepower.

Exceeding recommended output limits based on belt size will
ultimately lead to belt slippage and premature belt failure, and
potentially to resulting damage to the engine and alternator. DO
NOT
attempt to drive an alternator with an improperly-sized belt. In
addition to potential system damage, use of a high output
alternator
with an undersized belt could result in voiding of both engine and
alternator warranties. Don’t take the chance.

High output alternators generate a substantially increased demand
on
drive belts over that created by standard OEM alternators. Balmar
strongly recommends the use of premium belts, such as “Top Cog” by
Dayco (http://www.daycoproducts.com) and “Green Stripe” by Gates
Rubber (http://www.gates.com) for maximal performance and belt life.

Once installed, proper belt tensioning is essential for optimal
performance. When installing a new belt, run your engine for 15 to
30
minutes after initial tensioning. Re-tension after shutting down.
Repeat. Continue to inspect belt tension prior to engine start up
each time you use the boat. Tension whenever your belt deflection
exceeds engine manufacturer’s specifications.

unquote
I mounted a new Delco alternator a few monthes ago and a battery
monitor. The Delco outputs as much as 75-80 amps, I found. I
thought
it was rated @ 55 amps max.

Based on the Balmar info, my current 3/8" V-belt should - just -
do.
But I’m going to exchange it for an SPA belt (1/2" wide, 10 mm
deep,
covered walls (I hope more friction on the walles), no teeth) next
week and see what happens.

I also found a serpentine conversion kit for the Perkins 4.108 from
TA Diesels at $575 ex shipping. Apparently, the belt slippage
problem
is so common on the 4.108, 4.107 and Westerbeke 40 that TAD makes
this conversion kit. I hope the heavier 1/2" V-belt will do the job
as it should with a standard alternator.

Questions to you:

  1. Am I the only one with a persistently slipping 3/8" V-belt or am
    I
    the only one with a 3/8" belt?
  2. What belts are you using on your 4.108s?

Best,
Michel Capel
F44 #4 Alabama Queen

Yahoo! Groups Links

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

3

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Barry, thanks for your advice, indeed I realized that I still haven’t
seen the alternator working at its full 70-80 amps. Difficult to
discharge your batteries when you’re in the marina. I had my fridge
working with the lids off, but it takes quite a while to discharge
four new 90amp/h AGMs. These are very though batteries.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht <yak@…>
wrote:

Make sure you test it under worst-case conditions. Let me explain:

We sailed to Alaska on a friend’s boat; he has a 200A alternator
with dual belts. In Seattle, he never had any problems.

Going from Seattle to Alaska and back (over 2000 miles, and not too
much sailing) he was buying every alternator belt he could find in
most all ports 'cause they kept breaking. One time it knocked off
the oil pressure sender, and sent oil all over the place.
(Fortunately, I wasn’t aboard then!)

The reason: Normally he stayed in a marina, and kept the batteries
charged up, only going out for weekends mostly…so the batteries
never could take 200 amps (or anything even close), so the alternator
(and thus its belts) never got a full load.

Then while cruising, there were many nights spent on the hook
(frequently two nights), long enough to take the batteries pretty far
down…and then when the engine went on, the alternator got a full
load. And then the fun started.

So, make sure you fully load the alternator before you declare it
all good.

And moral of the story #2: If you need dual belts, get good
matched pairs of belts. (Gates has an excellent reputation.)

Barry

michel.capel wrote:

Yesterday, I mounted the new 1/2" wide tothed open flanked V-
belt. It
fits perfect on top of the pulleys. No more screeching of the
belt!
So I guess the problem is solved.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Hi all,

My Perkins 4.108 with standard (? - not sure) Delco alternator
has
a
very persistent slipping V-belt since I own the boat, that’s for
2,5
years now. I tightened the belt so much two weeks ago, that the
belt
flung to pieces after a short while. No matter what I do, it
keeps
on
slipping. I have numerous replacement belts that I tried.
However,
they are all XPZ belts (3/8" wide, 8 mm high, toothed, open
flanked)
and the belt sits deep in the pulleys. The pulleys are wide
enough
to
take a 1/2" belt, so it seems. I roughed up the alternator
pulley
with a file but this didn’t help.

I finally took the time to study the problem in more depth, and
found
an interesting text on the site of Balmar:

quote:
Balmar - Alternator Output Limits Based On Drive Belts

Another key factor in determining the right alternator for your
system is the width of the belt driving the alternator.
Typically,
most marine gas or diesel applications can be broken down into
four
groups:

Systems driven by a single v-belt measuring less than 1/2",
Systems driven by a single 1/2" v-belt,
Systems driven by dual or triple v-belts
Systems driven by multi-groove serpentine belts

V-Belts measuring less than 1/2" - Capable of driving
alternators
up
to 80 amps (50A @ 24V)with horsepower demands up to three
horsepower.
V-Belts measuring 1/2" - Capable of driving alternators up to
110
amps (65A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to four horsepower.

Multiple V-Belts - Capable of driving alternators up to 300 amps
(220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10 horsepower.

Multi-Groove Serpentine Belt - Capable of driving alternators up
to
300 amps (220A @ 24V) with horsepower demands up to 10
horsepower.

Exceeding recommended output limits based on belt size will
ultimately lead to belt slippage and premature belt failure, and
potentially to resulting damage to the engine and alternator. DO
NOT
attempt to drive an alternator with an improperly-sized belt. In
addition to potential system damage, use of a high output
alternator
with an undersized belt could result in voiding of both engine
and
alternator warranties. Don’t take the chance.

High output alternators generate a substantially increased
demand
on
drive belts over that created by standard OEM alternators.
Balmar
strongly recommends the use of premium belts, such as “Top Cog”
by
Dayco (http://www.daycoproducts.com) and “Green Stripe” by Gates
Rubber (http://www.gates.com) for maximal performance and belt
life.

Once installed, proper belt tensioning is essential for optimal
performance. When installing a new belt, run your engine for 15
to
30
minutes after initial tensioning. Re-tension after shutting
down.
Repeat. Continue to inspect belt tension prior to engine start
up
each time you use the boat. Tension whenever your belt
deflection
exceeds engine manufacturer’s specifications.

unquote
I mounted a new Delco alternator a few monthes ago and a battery
monitor. The Delco outputs as much as 75-80 amps, I found. I
thought
it was rated @ 55 amps max.

Based on the Balmar info, my current 3/8" V-belt should - just -

do.

But I’m going to exchange it for an SPA belt (1/2" wide, 10 mm
deep,
covered walls (I hope more friction on the walles), no teeth)
next
week and see what happens.

I also found a serpentine conversion kit for the Perkins 4.108
from
TA Diesels at $575 ex shipping. Apparently, the belt slippage
problem
is so common on the 4.108, 4.107 and Westerbeke 40 that TAD
makes
this conversion kit. I hope the heavier 1/2" V-belt will do the
job
as it should with a standard alternator.

Questions to you:

  1. Am I the only one with a persistently slipping 3/8" V-belt or
    am
    I
    the only one with a 3/8" belt?
  2. What belts are you using on your 4.108s?

Best,
Michel Capel
F44 #4 Alabama Queen

Yahoo! Groups Links

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

4

Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)

Well…just flip the AC mains breaker for a couple days before you go out next!
Just 'cause you have the marina shore power doesn’t mean you need to use it. :slight_smile:

michel.capel wrote:

Barry, thanks for your advice, indeed I realized that I still haven’t
seen the alternator working at its full 70-80 amps. Difficult to
discharge your batteries when you’re in the marina. I had my fridge
working with the lids off, but it takes quite a while to discharge
four new 90amp/h AGMs. These are very though batteries.

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)

5

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Yes, you’re right, that’s what I do. My shorepower is usually off,
unless I’m charging batteries. Even with the 10-15 amp fridge running
and the 80 amp microwave on the inverter, these new AGM’s take a while
to get discharged.


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Barry Stellrecht <yak@…>
wrote:

Well…just flip the AC mains breaker for a couple days before you
go out next! Just 'cause you have the marina shore power doesn’t mean
you need to use it. :slight_smile:

michel.capel wrote:

Barry, thanks for your advice, indeed I realized that I still
haven’t
seen the alternator working at its full 70-80 amps. Difficult to
discharge your batteries when you’re in the marina. I had my fridge
working with the lids off, but it takes quite a while to discharge
four new 90amp/h AGMs. These are very though batteries.

–
s/v Flutterby, Freedom 33 cat ketch (becoming a junk rig)