Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
When I had Bright Star, it didn’t take too long to figure out the
best sail trim for “upwind” - Main over the midship cleat, mizzen
just off centerline, centerboard down, and voila… you had 50 deg
apparent wind, somewhere between 4.5 and 5 knots upwind in nearly any
condition, and she’d sail herself practically. I’m not having that
kind of luck with Glory, and I’m trying to figure out what I’m doing
wrong.
First, yesterday wasn’t particularly strong winds, so I expect to
sort of not get great performance. the lows were around 6.5, and the
highs were around 14 true, probably the steadiest between 8.5 and 11.
I brought the main pretty much to amidships, and except for the very
top telltale, I think I had pretty good flow over the main. I brought
the jib in until the camberspar was probably about a 18" below the
mast (more on this jib later).
With this trim, keeping the heading somewhere between 60 and 50
degrees true (translating to somewhere around 40-50 apparent), the
best I was usually able to make going upwind was 4.2 knots, no better
speedwise than Bright Star (worse, actually), although pointing
significantly higher. I suspect that I was choking the jib, but
here’s my problem: for whatever reason, if I make the bottom of the
jib flow, the top is too open and stalls early. If I oversheet the
bottom, then the top 1/3 looks “right.” I don’t know how to adjust
tension or the camberspar to make the sail look proper from head to
foot, which may improve my upwind performance considerably.
I’m interested in hearing how others trim their camberspars, what
adjustments they make, etc. Also, what kind of pointing angles and
upwind speeds are people seeing in their 45s, and in what wind
conditions?
Thanks in advance,
Lance
Posted by rick_simonds (rick_simonds@…>)
… if I make the bottom of the
jib flow, the top is too open and stalls early. If I oversheet the
bottom, then the top 1/3 looks “right.” I don’t know how to adjust
tension or the camberspar to make the sail look proper from head to
foot, which may improve my upwind performance considerably.
I’ve never sailed a 45, or even actually seen one in the wild (NICE
BOAT!), but camberspar-wise:
Your jib’s leech is too loose. I think the solution is changing the
headstay tension.
I wrote this on the old Yahoo board a few months ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomyachts2003/message/9702
I did talk to Dave Berig about this subject and I stand by what I
wrote, with one possible exception: after writing it I started second-
guessing myself if TIGHTENING the headstay LOOSENS the leach, or did
I remembered it backwards and TIGHTENING the headstay TIGHTENS the
leach? I tried to find the notes that I wrote while talking to Dave
Berig but I can’t put my hands on them.
What I would do is loosen the headstay and go sailing. If the jib is
flowing better along its whole height then what I wrote is correct
and it should begin to solve the problem. If it’s worse then what I
wrote is backwards and you should try tightening the headstay even
farther than it was before.
I do know for sure that after getting my new jib from Dave Berig, I
messed with my headstay tension until I liked how it was flying. I
haven’t touched it since.
Rick
Tallahassee
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Lance,
I’m not familiar with camberspar jibs, so my view may be way off
because it’s based on ordinairy jibs. It sounds as if your sheeting
angle is too flat. Is there a way to put the jibsheet block forward?
If the sheet points down more, the leech is closed while the foot
and lower part of the jib are opened. But you probably have tried
this.
my 2 C.
michel
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:
When I had Bright Star, it didn’t take too long to figure out the
best sail trim for “upwind” - Main over the midship cleat, mizzen
just off centerline, centerboard down, and voila… you had 50 deg
apparent wind, somewhere between 4.5 and 5 knots upwind in nearly
any
condition, and she’d sail herself practically. I’m not having that
kind of luck with Glory, and I’m trying to figure out what I’m
doing
wrong.
First, yesterday wasn’t particularly strong winds, so I expect to
sort of not get great performance. the lows were around 6.5, and
the
highs were around 14 true, probably the steadiest between 8.5 and
I brought the main pretty much to amidships, and except for the
very
top telltale, I think I had pretty good flow over the main. I
brought
the jib in until the camberspar was probably about a 18" below the
mast (more on this jib later).
With this trim, keeping the heading somewhere between 60 and 50
degrees true (translating to somewhere around 40-50 apparent), the
best I was usually able to make going upwind was 4.2 knots, no
better
speedwise than Bright Star (worse, actually), although pointing
significantly higher. I suspect that I was choking the jib, but
here’s my problem: for whatever reason, if I make the bottom of
the
jib flow, the top is too open and stalls early. If I oversheet the
bottom, then the top 1/3 looks “right.” I don’t know how to adjust
tension or the camberspar to make the sail look proper from head
to
foot, which may improve my upwind performance considerably.
I’m interested in hearing how others trim their camberspars, what
adjustments they make, etc. Also, what kind of pointing angles and
upwind speeds are people seeing in their 45s, and in what wind
conditions?
Thanks in advance,
Lance
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Michel,
I thought about this. The current sheeting arrangement is two padeyes
on the deck. The sheet is dead-ended to one, goes through a block on
the end of the camberspar, and then back to the second block on deck
and back to the cockpit for trimming. I think that if the sheet were
on a traveler instead of dead-ended in two places, I could get a more
efficient vanging angle with the sheet that would pull more down
instead of across, and this would provide a little more leech tension
and should make the sail fly better. I saw a setup like this on a
Freedom 40/40 in South Freeport that appealed, although it also
increases the complexity somewhat. On the 40/40 it was a custom job.
Barring that, it’s pretty clear I’m going to have to start playing
with the headstay tension, or at least the luff tension. I found some
paperwork that came with the boat that suggests a free-standing mast
should have about 12" of deflection in the headstay.
Thanks for the suggestions. Still curious how close in people sheet
their camberspar jibs. Obviously you want to have a slot, but how
much is enough?
thanks,
Lance
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:
Lance,
I’m not familiar with camberspar jibs, so my view may be way off
because it’s based on ordinairy jibs. It sounds as if your sheeting
angle is too flat. Is there a way to put the jibsheet block
forward?
If the sheet points down more, the leech is closed while the foot
and lower part of the jib are opened. But you probably have tried
this.
my 2 C.
michel
Posted by jsforgey@… (jsforgey@…)
I would love to see a picture of this.
I think that I am doing a lousy job at trimming the sails. I have never raced and certainly not using the rig to its fullest capacity.
Scott
Girlfriend
F-32 HoytGet a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Posted by Thomas Wales (twales@…>)
Lance,
Get a new speedo. Yours is clearly broken.
TW
At 07:52 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
Michel,
I thought about this. The current sheeting arrangement is two padeyes
on the deck. The sheet is dead-ended to one, goes through a block on
the end of the camberspar, and then back to the second block on deck
and back to the cockpit for trimming. I think that if the sheet were
on a traveler instead of dead-ended in two places, I could get a more
efficient vanging angle with the sheet that would pull more down
instead of across, and this would provide a little more leech tension
and should make the sail fly better. I saw a setup like this on a
Freedom 40/40 in South Freeport that appealed, although it also
increases the complexity somewhat. On the 40/40 it was a custom job.
Barring that, it’s pretty clear I’m going to have to start playing
with the headstay tension, or at least the luff tension. I found some
paperwork that came with the boat that suggests a free-standing mast
should have about 12" of deflection in the headstay.
Thanks for the suggestions. Still curious how close in people sheet
their camberspar jibs. Obviously you want to have a slot, but how
much is enough?
thanks,
Lance
— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:
Lance,
I’m not familiar with camberspar jibs, so my view may be way off
because it’s based on ordinairy jibs. It sounds as if your sheeting
angle is too flat. Is there a way to put the jibsheet block
forward?
If the sheet points down more, the leech is closed while the foot
and lower part of the jib are opened. But you probably have tried
this.
my 2 C.
michel
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Posted by Thomas Wales (twales@…>)
Hi Lance,
I think the principles on camberspar are similar enough
between the 32 and the 45, but I think you’re worrying too much about
the jib. The jib is there so improve air flow over the main, which is
the primary driver of these boats. I just finished a race this past
Sunday and was pleased with the pointing ability (and speed) of my
32. Over a 3 legged (2 upwind) 8mile course, I finished ahead of 2
Alerion Express 28’s, an Oday 28, a Sabre 28, a Pierson 39, and a
Dark Harbor 20, all of which have PHRF’s equal to or lower than
mine. What I have done is added an extra main sheeting arrangement
to the end of my boom, which I attach to my handy dandy aluminum toe
rail (which you don’t have). What this does is allows me to center
the boom (without needing to use the traveler, which I leave centered
in most winds below 18 kts) and still get good sail shape. I use the
regular main sheet to flatten the sail or not depending upon the wind
conditions, to get the shape I want.
I’ll take a picture of it and send it to you for
reference. That, I believe, is what improves my pointing ability and
adds some speed also. I use the jib to create the slot to power the
main. As far as the luff tension, I tighten my jib halyard until the
camber spar clears the mast without touching. You can tighten it way
down if you want, but without a backstay, the mast will just bend a
bit and that won’t be helpful.
Let me know if you have any questions about this.
Best,
TW
At 07:52 AM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
Michel,
I thought about this. The current sheeting arrangement is two padeyes
on the deck. The sheet is dead-ended to one, goes through a block on
the end of the camberspar, and then back to the second block on deck
and back to the cockpit for trimming. I think that if the sheet were
on a traveler instead of dead-ended in two places, I could get a more
efficient vanging angle with the sheet that would pull more down
instead of across, and this would provide a little more leech tension
and should make the sail fly better. I saw a setup like this on a
Freedom 40/40 in South Freeport that appealed, although it also
increases the complexity somewhat. On the 40/40 it was a custom job.
Barring that, it’s pretty clear I’m going to have to start playing
with the headstay tension, or at least the luff tension. I found some
paperwork that came with the boat that suggests a free-standing mast
should have about 12" of deflection in the headstay.
Thanks for the suggestions. Still curious how close in people sheet
their camberspar jibs. Obviously you want to have a slot, but how
much is enough?
thanks,
Lance
— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:
Lance,
I’m not familiar with camberspar jibs, so my view may be way off
because it’s based on ordinairy jibs. It sounds as if your sheeting
angle is too flat. Is there a way to put the jibsheet block
forward?
If the sheet points down more, the leech is closed while the foot
and lower part of the jib are opened. But you probably have tried
this.
my 2 C.
michel
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Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Tom,
congrats on the racing results. The 32 seems like a good choice for
around the buoys.
I think I can accomplish much of what you’re talking about with the
traveller, sheet, and boom vang. I’ll have to do some playing this
weekend. One advantage I have regarding the headsail tension is that
the previous owner put running backstays on the boat when they put
on the bowsprit, oversized jib, and the gennaker. I may also have
the sail stretched to the wrong hole on the camber spar.
I’ll let you know what I find out.
On the plus side, on the way in on Sunday, I was able to outpoint a
Cabo 32 cutter ketch. He was much, much faster than me, but between
the time it took for him to tack, plus the 10 degrees or so higher
that I was pointing, I was able to catch him and put him behind me
in about 4 tacking series. I was very surprised to also being
outpacing some J22s and J24s, although because they’re sailing club
boats I think they were all flying #2s. The 45cc definitely needs to
have a little heel in her to start to feel the groove, so I’ll play
more with getting boom right on centerline and flying the main
telltales more than the jib and see what happens.
Lance
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Wales <twales@…>
wrote:
Hi Lance,
I think the principles on camberspar are similar enough
between the 32 and the 45, but I think you’re worrying too much
about
the jib. The jib is there so improve air flow over the main, which
is
the primary driver of these boats. I just finished a race this
past
Sunday and was pleased with the pointing ability (and speed) of my
32. Over a 3 legged (2 upwind) 8mile course, I finished ahead of
2
Alerion Express 28’s, an Oday 28, a Sabre 28, a Pierson 39, and a
Dark Harbor 20, all of which have PHRF’s equal to or lower than
mine. What I have done is added an extra main sheeting
arrangement
to the end of my boom, which I attach to my handy dandy aluminum
toe
rail (which you don’t have). What this does is allows me to
center
the boom (without needing to use the traveler, which I leave
centered
in most winds below 18 kts) and still get good sail shape. I use
the
regular main sheet to flatten the sail or not depending upon the
wind
conditions, to get the shape I want.
I’ll take a picture of it and send it to you for
reference. That, I believe, is what improves my pointing ability
and
adds some speed also. I use the jib to create the slot to power
the
main. As far as the luff tension, I tighten my jib halyard until
the
camber spar clears the mast without touching. You can tighten it
way
down if you want, but without a backstay, the mast will just bend
a
bit and that won’t be helpful.
Let me know if you have any questions about this.
Best,
TW
Posted by Thomas Wales (twales@…>)
Hi Scott,
I sent you an email off the group with a bunch of pictures,
but it came back undelivered. Is there a better email address I
should be using?
Thanks,
TW
At 05:53 PM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
I would love to see a picture of this.
I think that I am doing a lousy job at trimming the sails. I have
never raced and certainly not using the rig to its fullest capacity.
Scott
Girlfriend
F-32 Hoyt
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>AOL.com.
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Posted by Al Lorman (ajl@…>)
Tom:
Why
don’t you post the photos in the photo section of this site so we can all
learn?
Al
Lorman
F30
Ab Initio
From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Thomas Wales
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 4:35 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Freedom 45 sail trim questions
\
Hi Scott,
I sent you an email off the group with a bunch of pictures,
but it came back undelivered. Is there a better email address I
should be using?
Thanks,
TW
At 05:53 PM 8/28/2007, you wrote:
I would love to see a picture of this.
I think that I am doing a lousy job at trimming the sails. I have
never raced and certainly not using the rig to its fullest capacity.
Scott
Girlfriend
F-32 Hoyt
Get a sneak peek of the all-new
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>AOL.com.
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8/28/2007 4:29 PM
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Posted by jsforgey@… (jsforgey@…)
Thanks,
I got the photos.
Great help and thanks for the coaching from a racer.
Scott
Girlfriend
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