new question for open discussion

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1

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of
mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well
balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me
by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore
work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event
that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom,
but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost
the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any
thoughts on this?

Lance

2

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Lot’s of stern hung rudders have been used on many off-shore voyages including in heavy weather. Some have been mentioned on this board from time to time.
I’ve been in some pretty severe weather in the Atlantic in my previous Bristol 32 sloop (modified full keel, keel hung rudder) and believe the F-33 arrangement to be much stronger then on the bristol in several ways. People used to think spade rudders weren’t strong enough but its all a matter of construction details/strength. My 2 cents.
Alan F33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: lance_ryley
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:55 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion
I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance

3

Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Just last March I pulled my rudder to replace the bushings of the gudgeons (hey, I dont have spell rite, here !) I was astounded to find that the bolts holding the lower gudgeon to the hull , have no backing , with other words, they penetrate the hull, down at the very heel of it, and exit the skin on the other side… with no backing plates reinforcing the holes. I thought that a severe blow to the rudder, (such as falling off a wave while at extreme heel) might rip that fitting right out of there. A lesser blow still might induce leakage which would be impossible to locate, let alone fix, while under way. I went and poured a mix of epoxy and glass fiber down the inside , after re bolting the gudgeon, so that now these bolts are in solid matter all the way across. Lot’s of stern hung rudders have been used on many off-shore voyages including in heavy weather. Some have been mentioned on this board from time to time. I’ve been in some pretty severe weather in the Atlantic in my previous Bristol 32 sloop (modified full keel, keel hung rudder) and believe the F-33 arrangement to be much stronger then on the bristol in several ways. People used to think spade rudders weren’t strong enough but its all a matter of construction details/strength. My 2 cents. Alan F33 Hull #51 ----- Original Message ----- From: lance_ryley To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:55 AM Subject: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that
could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance
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4

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

On my F-33 there is a large metal backing plate if I remember correctly for the upper attachment. For the lower I had assumed it was solid where the 3 bolts go through from one side to the other. I don’t recall ever seeing it from th inside. Is that what you are referring to?
Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Minelli
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion

Just last March I pulled my rudder to replace the bushings of the gudgeons (hey, I dont have spell rite, here !) I was astounded to find that the bolts holding the lower gudgeon to the hull , have no backing , with other words, they penetrate the hull, down at the very heel of it, and exit the skin on the other side… with no backing plates reinforcing the holes. I thought that a severe blow to the rudder, (such as falling off a wave while at extreme heel) might rip that fitting right out of there. A lesser blow still might induce leakage which would be impossible to locate, let alone fix, while under way.
I went and poured a mix of epoxy and glass fiber down the inside , after re bolting the gudgeon, so that now these bolts are in solid matter all the way across.

Lot’s of stern hung rudders have been used on many off-shore voyages including in heavy weather. Some have been mentioned on this board from time to time.
I’ve been in some pretty severe weather in the Atlantic in my previous Bristol 32 sloop (modified full keel, keel hung rudder) and believe the F-33 arrangement to be much stronger then on the bristol in several ways. People used to think spade rudders weren’t strong enough but its all a matter of construction details/strength. My 2 cents.
Alan F33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: lance_ryley
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:55 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion
I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance


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5

Posted by Paul McFadden (pwhitmac@…>)
Your friend must be quite young, or with all due respect, rather inexperienced. At the peril of dating myself I can remember when the accepted off shore design HAD to have a transom-hung (or outboard) rudder, with a tiller. Some of the Around alone type boats still have outboard rudders and tillers, often two. If Eric Hiscock was still with us I’m sure he could go on and on about his beloved Wanderer III, which had an outboard rudder. Bottom line, designs change, sometimes for no really good reason. Face it, a boat with an outboard rudder is cheaper to build, and it doesn’t have a large hole in the bottom to accommodate the rudder stock/post. As they say, “my 2 cents”…PWMlance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote: I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old
friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance
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6

Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Yes, Allen, that is exactly the three bolts I am talking about. I , too, had always assume that these bolts went through solid glass, all the way. When I had to pull the “muffler” in order to replace the exhaust line, I had observed that this is not the case. Alan Kusinitz <akusinitz@…> wrote: On my F-33 there is a large metal backing plate if I remember correctly for the upper attachment. For the lower I had assumed it was solid where the 3 bolts go through from one side to the other. I don’t recall ever seeing it from th inside. Is that what you are referring to? Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Minelli To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion Just last March I pulled my rudder to replace the bushings of the gudgeons (hey, I dont have spell rite, here !) I was astounded to find that the bolts holding the lower gudgeon to the hull , have no backing , with other words, they penetrate the hull, down at the very heel of it, and exit the skin on the other side… with no backing plates reinforcing the holes. I thought that a severe blow to the rudder, (such as falling off a wave while at extreme heel) might rip that fitting right out of there. A lesser blow still might induce leakage which would be impossible to locate, let alone fix, while under way. I went and poured a mix of epoxy and glass fiber down the inside , after re bolting the gudgeon, so that now these bolts are in solid matter all the way across. Lot’s of stern hung rudders have been used on many off-shore voyages including in heavy weather. Some have been mentioned on this board from time to time. I’ve been in some pretty severe weather in the Atlantic in my previous Bristol 32 sloop (modified full keel, keel hung rudder) and believe the F-33 arrangement to be much stronger then on the bristol in several ways. People used to think spade rudders weren’t strong enough but its all a matter of construction details/strength. My 2 cents. Alan F33 Hull #51 ----- Original Message ----- From: lance_ryley To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:55 AM Subject: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well
mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance Yahoo! PersonalsLet fate take it’s course directly to your email.See who’s waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
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7

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Good to know. I’d imagine even though not solid glass its still a pretty solid location given the hull thickness on both sides.
I’ll put it on my list.
Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Minelli
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion




\

Yes, Allen, that is exactly the three bolts I am talking about. I , too, had always assume that these bolts went through solid glass, all the way.

When I had to pull the “muffler” in order to replace the exhaust line, I had observed that this is not the case.




Alan Kusinitz <akusinitz@…> wrote:
On my F-33 there is a large metal backing plate if I remember correctly for the upper attachment. For the lower I had assumed it was solid where the 3 bolts go through from one side to the other. I don’t recall ever seeing it from th inside. Is that what you are referring to?
Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Minelli
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion

Just last March I pulled my rudder to replace the bushings of the gudgeons (hey, I dont have spell rite, here !) I was astounded to find that the bolts holding the lower gudgeon to the hull , have no backing , with other words, they penetrate the hull, down at the very heel of it, and exit the skin on the other side… with no backing plates reinforcing the holes. I thought that a severe blow to the rudder, (such as falling off a wave while at extreme heel) might rip that fitting right out of there. A lesser blow still might induce leakage which would be impossible to locate, let alone fix, while under way.
I went and poured a mix of epoxy and glass fiber down the inside , after re bolting the gudgeon, so that now these bolts are in solid matter all the way across.

Lot’s of stern hung rudders have been used on many off-shore voyages including in heavy weather. Some have been mentioned on this board from time to time.
I’ve been in some pretty severe weather in the Atlantic in my previous Bristol 32 sloop (modified full keel, keel hung rudder) and believe the F-33 arrangement to be much stronger then on the bristol in several ways. People used to think spade rudders weren’t strong enough but its all a matter of construction details/strength. My 2 cents.
Alan F33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: lance_ryley
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:55 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] new question for open discussion
I was having a discussion about Bright Star with an old friend of mine, and we were essentially concurring that it’s a great rig - well balanced, sturdy build, well mannered in a sea… when he surprised me by saying, “still, I wouldn’t trust a stern-hung rudder for off-shore work.” I was a little surprised by that. I mean, granted - an event that could possibly shear off my rudder would also take the transom, but with the way the rudder abuts the keel, my feeling is if I lost the rudder, I’ve probably got bigger problems to worry about. Any thoughts on this?Lance


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8

Posted by notnat40 (davidhanson@…>)

Hey Frank…Where did you pick up the bushings…got the rudder off
of my F28CK to repair some hurricane damage and noticed mine need
replacing. Any tips for easy removal and replacement. Cheers. Dave

9

Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Hey Dave ! Go to any marine-oriented machine shop. Thjey will have the stock (Delrin) Just make sure you measure really tight, and if its then a little too tight, you can sand it out… notnat40 <davidhanson@…> wrote: Hey Frank…Where did you pick up the bushings…got the rudder off of my F28CK to repair some hurricane damage and noticed mine need replacing. Any tips for easy removal and replacement. Cheers. Dave
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