Radar

[ron_barr]

Posted by ron barr (rwhb@…>)


Yep – Korea and Vietnam are on my travel agenda – all it takes
is time and money…

Ron

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 8:25 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Radar

\

Only flying for fun there. I have not been back to Korea yet. I
lived there for a year in the early 80s… like 80/81 and then again in
something like 86 for a year but that was at Kwang-Ju and while I was drunk for
an entire year the first time I was a tea tottaler when I went back. Wow
what a different experience. It’s a beautiful coast and a beautiful
people and I’ve always wanted to go back and cruise it if it’s even
possible. I’ve not studied it in detail and the security might still be
too tight. Do you know that while I was there they still raked the
beaches every single day. I’m talking the ENTIRE peninsula so that they
could see if anyone came ashore during the night.

George

ron barr <rwhb@…> wrote:




TACAN eh? You
must have been “flying”….51st Fighter Wing? Have you been back to
Korea?

\

Ron

\

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:21 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Radar



\

Well… I have used RDF also so I suppose this gives my age
a little (although I was a minor) in the great lakes and I think the
Smithsonian is probably looking for one of the first depth sounders I used…
heh heh I never used Consolan but I did use Tacan to find my way back to
Osan AB a few times… but that was a different life.

George

ron barr <rwhb@…> wrote:






Some of it
George has, I think, to do with how long one has been at this game. I grew up
with log lines, flashing depth sounders, RDF and listening to the dots and
dashes from Nantucket’s Consolan station. Thus I take electronic gadgetry with
caution. My first so called radar was a Whistler and I’ll bet most of the
people on this group probably have never heard of it J . However modern radar and GPS
are wonderful inventions and I wouldn’t be without them, and I love plotters.
There are days when I miss the stimulation of fighting the cloud cover for a
three star fix when closing a landfall – but they are very few and far
between!



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Integrate GPS
with the autopilot? No way.



\

\

Ron Barr




82 Bridge Street




Newport RI 02840



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\

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 5:19 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Radar





\

Pretty much Ron,

I like simple systems and I use paper back ups. I don’t have problems
figuring out which is the bridge and which is the tanker. Marpa has it’s
uses but AIS is pretty awesome. But I want that information on it’s own
display also so I’ll go with the AIS “radar” instead of black boxing
and networking it. I also don’t integrate the GPS to the autopilot.
I watch what’s going on and if I begin to drift then I correct course.
Knowing I’ve encountered some current is good information to have too.

But this is me and there are as many ways to get from point a to b as their are
sailors I imagine.

George

ron barr <rwhb@…> wrote:








If I understand
you correctly George – I am in the same corner. It seems a mistake to me, in
pleasure boating, to integrate systems too closely unless one has a
complete back up as one would on a larger merchant vessel.





\

Ron






Newport RI






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From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of George Huffman
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 11:36 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Radar







\

Regarding radar/chartplotter combinations and speaking as
someone who
has installed perhaps a forty to fifty of them and also used them
extensively in a wide range of environments and platforms… I still
prefer the stand alone units as I described in an earlier post. I had
the budget to do it any way I liked on our new (to us) F-40 CC CK and
I chose to do it that way.

Of course there is room for all kinds of individual choice here. I
can only say what I’ve decided on as better for me. I wouldn’t like,
however, to be categorized as someone who hasn’t used a chart plotter
with radar overlay. I’m quite on the other end of that spectrum.

George

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“Geoffrey Schultz”
<geoff.freedom@…> wrote:

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“ron barr” <rwhb@> wrote:

IMHO combining radars and plotters is not always the best idea -
especially on a sailboat when screens tend to be 7" or smaller.
On
top of which it is too many eggs in one basket.

I’ll completely disagree with this statement. I’d say it’s by someone
who hasn’t used one. So far I’ve have a Furuno radar (replaced when
the radome died), a Northstar 961 chart plotter (replaced when the
display head died, but it was a marveleous unit with an outstanding
user interface, but it drew 10A), and now I own a Raymarine C80 which
is used as the chartplotter and radar and a Northstar 6200i which is
used as the backup for the C80. I do most of my cruising in the
Caribbean and getting things fixed down there is very difficult and
time/$ comsuming, and thus the redundancy.

Anyhow, the ability to overlay a radar image on top of a chart is
wonderful. It can make sense of radar images where it may be very
confusing without the chart. You can always shut off the overlay, so
you can view it anyway that you want.

Personally I find MARPA of very limited value. It probably works well
with a stationary radar unit, but on a sailboat in anything less than
calm seas, the calculated course/speed of a target bounces all over the
place.

What is MUCH more useful is an AIS receiver and a chartplotter which
displays the data. I regularly see ships 40+ miles away and the
display shows the CPA (closest point of approach) as well as the name
of the vessel. Believe me, knowing the name of the vessel that you’re
on a collision course with makes all the difference in the world when
you’re trying to hail them. I wouldn’t be without as AIS receiver and
am looking forward to the day when AIS transponders are reasonably
priced.

As far as brands are concerned, I only have experience with NorthStar
and RayMarine combined use systems. The RayMarine integrates nicely
into the rest of my autopilot instruments and the latest versions of
the saftware have improved the usability greatly. I am very
disappointed with the NorthStar unit as the 961 unit that I purchased
in 1998 had much more functionality than the current unit do.

– Geoff

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[Geoffrey_Schultz]

Posted by Geoffrey Schultz (geoff.freedom@geoffschultz.org>)

George,

I completely agree that redundant systems are highly desirable. I
have them. However, with the cost of today’s systems, there is no
reason not to combine them, as there’s virtually no difference in
cost between a radar system with a chart plotter and one without.
You have to look hard to find a plain radar system now days and most
of what you’ll find are older systems.

You seem to have a lot of experience with radar systems as
you’ve “installed 40-50 of them”. I would suggest that you’re in a
different league than the original author and that your needs are
different than most people. Overlaying a radar image on top of a
chart can help the average person make a lot more sense out of what
they’re seeing.

I can’t understand your opposition to integrating GPS into your
autopilot. I guess that you don’t integrate your chartplotter with
your autopilot either. And I guess that you’re at the wheel all of
the time or that you have your crew as well trained as you are to
spot and correct for drift, etc.

I’ll also re-argue that MARPA doesn’t work well on a sailboat. MARPA
uses the return data to calculate the bearing and speed of an
object. Unless you’re on a very steady platform (on land, flat seas,
or a big ship), your heading is moving all over the place due to the
sea state and/or your steering. When I first got the C80 which had
MARPA on it, I thought that that it would be great. In reality the
target’s bearing/speed that it calculated while underway bounced
around so much that it wasn’t usable. AIS on the other hand utilizes
position/speed/bearing/turn-rate data directly from the GPS on vessel
and is much more reliable.

My background is designing fault tolerant computer systems which had
99.999% uptime, so I’m all for redundancy. However, separating the
radar and chartplotter systems doesn’t add to the reliability of the
system. You still have 2 independent systems providing different
types of data with no redundancy. You haven’t gained any reliability
by separating functionality.

On BlueJacket, which is a Freedom 40/40, I have 2 chartplotter/radar
systems at the wheel. See
http://www.geoffschultz.org/BlueJacket/Electronics/ for photos of the
setup. Both the RayMarine C80 and NorthStar 6200i can be used as a
chartplotter as they both use Navionics CF charts, only the C80 has
radar capabilities. Each unit has it’s own GPS antenna and there’s a
3rd antenna which is active on the C80 and can be switched to the
6200i in a matter of minutes. Both units interface to a RayMarine
Corepack 3 course computer and I have another interface from a
laptop. I carry a spare course computer and spares for all of the
displays/controls. Oh, I carry paper charts too (and 2 hand held
GPSs), but those are typically for last resort.

I’ve logged over 30,000 miles on BlueJacket using this, and various
other combinations of systems, and they have worked well. I
personally think that the overlay of radar on charts is a wonderful
thing.

If you want to use paper charts, take star sightings, etc, go for
it! Technology has made wonderful advances, and as long as you
understand the limitations of both systems, you’ll be fine.

– Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

Regarding radar/chartplotter combinations and speaking as someone
who
has installed perhaps a forty to fifty of them and also used them
extensively in a wide range of environments and platforms… I
still
prefer the stand alone units as I described in an earlier post. I
had
the budget to do it any way I liked on our new (to us) F-40 CC CK
and
I chose to do it that way.

Of course there is room for all kinds of individual choice here. I
can only say what I’ve decided on as better for me. I wouldn’t
like,
however, to be categorized as someone who hasn’t used a chart
plotter
with radar overlay. I’m quite on the other end of that spectrum.

George

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Geoffrey Schultz”
<geoff.freedom@> wrote:

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “ron barr” <rwhb@>
wrote:

IMHO combining radars and plotters is not always the best idea -

especially on a sailboat when screens tend to be 7" or smaller.
On
top of which it is too many eggs in one basket.

I’ll completely disagree with this statement. I’d say it’s by
someone
who hasn’t used one. So far I’ve have a Furuno radar (replaced
when
the radome died), a Northstar 961 chart plotter (replaced when
the
display head died, but it was a marveleous unit with an
outstanding
user interface, but it drew 10A), and now I own a Raymarine C80
which
is used as the chartplotter and radar and a Northstar 6200i which
is
used as the backup for the C80. I do most of my cruising in the
Caribbean and getting things fixed down there is very difficult
and
time/$ comsuming, and thus the redundancy.

Anyhow, the ability to overlay a radar image on top of a chart is
wonderful. It can make sense of radar images where it may be
very
confusing without the chart. You can always shut off the
overlay, so
you can view it anyway that you want.

Personally I find MARPA of very limited value. It probably works
well
with a stationary radar unit, but on a sailboat in anything less
than
calm seas, the calculated course/speed of a target bounces all
over the
place.

What is MUCH more useful is an AIS receiver and a chartplotter
which
displays the data. I regularly see ships 40+ miles away and the
display shows the CPA (closest point of approach) as well as the
name
of the vessel. Believe me, knowing the name of the vessel that
you’re
on a collision course with makes all the difference in the world
when
you’re trying to hail them. I wouldn’t be without as AIS
receiver and
am looking forward to the day when AIS transponders are
reasonably
priced.

As far as brands are concerned, I only have experience with
NorthStar
and RayMarine combined use systems. The RayMarine integrates
nicely
into the rest of my autopilot instruments and the latest versions
of
the saftware have improved the usability greatly. I am very
disappointed with the NorthStar unit as the 961 unit that I
purchased
in 1998 had much more functionality than the current unit do.

– Geoff

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Well Geoff,I think you summed it up pretty well. Except you made some assumptions. Basically I don’t use a chart plotter as such at all. I use a hand held GPS that has mapping so I suppose you could call it a mini chart plotter. It’s a Garmin Map 76. It has base map only but that also includes the light list which comes in very handy. Myself and my crew find it simple as pie to detect cross track. Pretty much glance at the GPS. I’ll always have paper chart backups. Too many times I’ve seen a single lightning strike put a boat into the stone age killing everything on board including a hand held GPS in a ditch bag that was off and with no batteries in it. Must have been hurt buy EMP alone. But I’ve more often found that stuff that’s turned on when the lighting hits even close by a boat has a much higher chance of going tango uniform. We also have a second identical GPS as a backup and I’ll
probably decide I need at least one more. The Radar I purchased recently for Marquesa is a Furuno. It is modern and stand alone and it will be off most of the time saving a lot of power. Geeky guys like you and me don’t have much trouble learning to use electronics. We are button pushers by nature am I right? First thing we do is start menu-ing like crazy and the manual is probably a last resort… heh heh I’ve really had to watch “regular” folk struggle with full featured electronics because a big part of those install jobs was training the owner to use the stuff. Thatboatguy: "ok folks nothing to worry about here, if you can program your VCR to record the game you can use this simple chartplotter/radar no problem"Wife and Husband both with deer in headlight look: Wife: "you don’t understand… our VCR flashes constantly"Thatboatguy: Ok no problem we will start very basic
then.Wife and Husband pull out legal size notepads and pencils and prepare for note taking.Thatboatguy: “Ok lets start with powering up the unit” "push the power button here and hold it a spell and when you hear the beep then release the button, the unit will power on and go thru a self test sequence… Husband: “Whoa woah there! slow down now I’m not a rocket scientist you know!” Thatboatguy: “Ok no problem (shuts unit back down) how about I just walk you through it a few times. Go ahead and power up the unit.Husband consults notes, then pushes and holds the power button. Unit beeps. Husband continues to hold down power button while unit cycles back off.Yeah. That really happened. Ok I don’t know how to celestial navigate although I do plan on having the books and the sextant and a good reliable chronometer on board should the worst happen. (see above
lighting strike comment). So anyway what you got works great for you. I’ve made informed decisions for us that I’m happy with. I think we will be approximately evenly safe out there and hopefully the new guy will be able to sort out some good information from the back and forth. GeorgeGeoffrey Schultz <geoff.freedom@…> wrote: George, I completely agree that redundant systems are highly desirable. I have them. However, with the cost of today’s systems, there is no reason not to combine
them, as there’s virtually no difference in cost between a radar system with a chart plotter and one without. You have to look hard to find a plain radar system now days and most of what you’ll find are older systems. You seem to have a lot of experience with radar systems as you’ve “installed 40-50 of them”. I would suggest that you’re in a different league than the original author and that your needs are different than most people. Overlaying a radar image on top of a chart can help the average person make a lot more sense out of what they’re seeing. I can’t understand your opposition to integrating GPS into your autopilot. I guess that you don’t integrate your chartplotter with your autopilot either. And I guess that you’re at the wheel all of the time or that you have your crew as well trained as you are to spot and correct for drift, etc. I’ll also re-argue that MARPA doesn’t
work well on a sailboat. MARPA uses the return data to calculate the bearing and speed of an object. Unless you’re on a very steady platform (on land, flat seas, or a big ship), your heading is moving all over the place due to the sea state and/or your steering. When I first got the C80 which had MARPA on it, I thought that that it would be great. In reality the target’s bearing/speed that it calculated while underway bounced around so much that it wasn’t usable. AIS on the other hand utilizes position/speed/bearing/turn-rate data directly from the GPS on vessel and is much more reliable. My background is designing fault tolerant computer systems which had 99.999% uptime, so I’m all for redundancy. However, separating the radar and chartplotter systems doesn’t add to the reliability of the system. You still have 2 independent systems providing different types of data with no
redundancy. You haven’t gained any reliability by separating functionality. On BlueJacket, which is a Freedom 40/40, I have 2 chartplotter/radar systems at the wheel. See http://www.geoffschultz.org/BlueJacket/Electronics/ for photos of the setup. Both the RayMarine C80 and NorthStar 6200i can be used as a chartplotter as they both use Navionics CF charts, only the C80 has radar capabilities. Each unit has it’s own GPS antenna and there’s a 3rd antenna which is active on the C80 and can be switched to the 6200i in a matter of minutes. Both units interface to a RayMarine Corepack 3 course computer and I have another interface from a laptop. I carry a spare course computer and spares for all of the displays/controls. Oh, I carry paper charts too (and 2 hand held GPSs), but those are typically for last resort.
I’ve logged over 30,000 miles on BlueJacket using this, and various other combinations of systems, and they have worked well. I personally think that the overlay of radar on charts is a wonderful thing. If you want to use paper charts, take star sightings, etc, go for it! Technology has made wonderful advances, and as long as you understand the limitations of both systems, you’ll be fine. – Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “George Huffman” <thatboatguy2@…> wrote: > > Regarding radar/chartplotter combinations and speaking as someone who > has installed perhaps a forty to fifty of them and also used them > extensively in a wide range of environments and platforms… I still > prefer the stand alone units as I described in an earlier post. I had > the budget to do it any way I liked on our new (to us) F-40 CC CK and > I chose to do it that way. > > Of course there is room for all kinds of individual choice here. I > can only say what I’ve decided on as better for me. I wouldn’t like, > however, to be categorized as someone who hasn’t used a chart plotter > with radar overlay. I’m quite on the other end of that spectrum. > > George > > — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Geoffrey Schultz” > <geoff.freedom@> wrote: > > > > — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “ron barr” <rwhb@> wrote: > > > > > IMHO combining radars and plotters is not always the best idea - > > >
especially on a sailboat when screens tend to be 7” or smaller. On > > > top of which it is too many eggs in one basket. > > > > I’ll completely disagree with this statement. I’d say it’s by someone > > who hasn’t used one. So far I’ve have a Furuno radar (replaced when > > the radome died), a Northstar 961 chart plotter (replaced when the > > display head died, but it was a marveleous unit with an outstanding > > user interface, but it drew 10A), and now I own a Raymarine C80 which > > is used as the chartplotter and radar and a Northstar 6200i which is > > used as the backup for the C80. I do most of my cruising in the > > Caribbean and getting things fixed down there is very difficult and > > time/$ comsuming, and thus the redundancy. > > > > Anyhow, the ability to overlay a radar
image on top of a chart is > > wonderful. It can make sense of radar images where it may be very > > confusing without the chart. You can always shut off the overlay, so > > you can view it anyway that you want. > > > > Personally I find MARPA of very limited value. It probably works well > > with a stationary radar unit, but on a sailboat in anything less than > > calm seas, the calculated course/speed of a target bounces all over the > > place. > > > > What is MUCH more useful is an AIS receiver and a chartplotter which > > displays the data. I regularly see ships 40+ miles away and the > > display shows the CPA (closest point of approach) as well as the name > > of the vessel. Believe me, knowing the name of the vessel that you’re > > on a collision course with makes all the
difference in the world when > > you’re trying to hail them. I wouldn’t be without as AIS receiver and > > am looking forward to the day when AIS transponders are reasonably > > priced. > > > > As far as brands are concerned, I only have experience with NorthStar > > and RayMarine combined use systems. The RayMarine integrates nicely > > into the rest of my autopilot instruments and the latest versions of > > the saftware have improved the usability greatly. I am very > > disappointed with the NorthStar unit as the 961 unit that I purchased > > in 1998 had much more functionality than the current unit do. > > > > – Geoff
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

[Alex_lp]

Posted by Alex_lp (alex.puritche@…>)

Hello, Mike.

I’m considering installing…

Read this http://www.panbo.com/

1. May take some time to read.
2. Don’t go crazy and install all of the stuff, it will be endless.

In my humble opinion… Good chart plotter (with Navionics Platinum
chips) + AIS (at least receiver) is OK. Radar is OK too, if you

really< know how to use it, otherwise it may get you in very serious
troubles.