RE: Re:Masts--Hinged, CF, and Aluminum

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1

Posted by Patrick Weaver (patrick@…>)



In
order to get to Sean’s pictures you need to paste the link into your
browser:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146


I’m not an engineer but a number of
things strike me (after wanting to go sailing):

  1.     The

mast bend looks like a CF mast doing what it is supposed to do: bending off on
a breeze. But the bend is at the top of the mast. Near the base (where the
hinge would be) it appears straight.
2. Judging
by the bend, the heel, and the waves it looks to me that the wind is blowing
more than 10 knots. From what I’ve read on the site, one should douse the
jib over 10 knots.
3. It
may not be an accurate comparision, but windsurfer masts are mostly two-part
masts and I’ve never broken one of those, even with the crushing forces
of the wishbone boom.
4. If
Freedom was still willing to give out instructions on how to install a mast
hinge in 1998, it would seem to me that they’d have had enough data back
on breakages due to the hinging of the mast. If there was data to suggest mast
breakage, I’d think that would have been added to the instructions.

The only negative information I have heard
about the hinging of a mast had to do with the aluminum masts where the
combination of the aluminum bending and the method of attaching the hinge to the
mast (rivets vs. epoxy) resulted in the hinge loosening within the mast over
time. Just my two cents.

I’d love to know where one can get
the mast hinge assembly (though I must admit that I have not called Freedom to
find out). I’d also love to know whether anyone has found a good source
for aluminum spars. I’ve been looking at flagpole companies and I also
found a possibility at http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Rig-Rite_Spars/RigRite_Round_Masts.html

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: freedom21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vivian
Sent: Friday, January
12, 2007 12:12 PM
To: freedom21@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedom21] Re: hinged
mast




http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146

Above link is to a series of photos taken 9/4/06 (Labor Day) in good wind showing the
“bending” of the CF mast. Max, feel free to add this album to the
Freedom 21.info site.

Sean

— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com,
“Sean Mulligan” <quadmulligan@…> wrote:

Hi - My opinion is that the carbon fiber mast is best left intact and
not hinged. I would think the aluminum masts would be better suited to
hinging.

I have no proof of this, just my experience playing around with our CF
mast while unstepping and restepping it. Oh, and noting the great
forces on the rig when we’ve got 20 knots of wind and everything up. It
is designed to bend and it seems putting a hinge in would radically
change the arc of that bend.

Sean Mulligan #307

— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com,
“billpeggyweber” <billpeggyweber@>
wrote:

Does anyone have experience or picture/info on hinging the mast???
I’ve got the info/spec’s from our site. Interested in opinions
and any kind of help. Thanks.


\

2

Posted by Sean Mulligan (quadmulligan@…>)

Yes, easier to just go to:
http://picasaweb.google.com/seanpmulligan

Your points are well made. My comments:

  1. The bend is more pronounced as the rig tapers and the greater forces of twist occur.

  2. I think the wind was 18 or 19 and shortly after these photos were shot I did douse the main and sailed on jib alone. Why? Because it was easier and safer to drop the main into lazyjacks than to go forward to take in the headsail. I am interested in other ideas for shortening sail when the wind comes up as it relates to the jib - what have others done? (other than add roller-furling, which I will not do because I like the gunsight rig for the chute and the ability to pole out the jib.

  3. I know nothing of windsurfer masts but I am in awe of the speed I see them go (and the strength it seems to take to ride one).

  4. I was unaware of any 1998 instructions from Freedom (TSP?) on the subject. Do you have it?

Sean

-----Original Message-----From: freedom21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick WeaverSent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:09 PMTo: freedom21@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [freedom21] Re:Masts–Hinged, CF, and Aluminum



In order to get to Sean’s pictures you need to paste the link into your browser:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146
I’m not an engineer but a number of things strike me (after wanting to go sailing):

  1.     The mast bend looks like a CF mast doing what it is supposed to do: bending off on a breeze. But the bend is at the top of the mast. Near the base (where the hinge would be) it appears straight.

  2.     Judging by the bend, the heel, and the waves it looks to me that the wind is blowing more than 10 knots. From what I’ve read on the site, one should douse the jib over 10 knots.

  3.     It may not be an accurate comparision, but windsurfer masts are mostly two-part masts and I’ve never broken one of those, even with the crushing forces of the wishbone boom.

  4.     If Freedom was still willing to give out instructions on how to install a mast hinge in 1998, it would seem to me that they’d have had enough data back on breakages due to the hinging of the mast. If there was data to suggest mast breakage, I’d think that would have been added to the instructions.

The only negative information I have heard about the hinging of a mast had to do with the aluminum masts where the combination of the aluminum bending and the method of attaching the hinge to the mast (rivets vs. epoxy) resulted in the hinge loosening within the mast over time. Just my two cents.

I’d love to know where one can get the mast hinge assembly (though I must admit that I have not called Freedom to find out). I’d also love to know whether anyone has found a good source for aluminum spars. I’ve been looking at flagpole companies and I also found a possibility at http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Rig-Rite_Spars/RigRite_Round_Masts.html

Patrick
-----Original Message-----From: freedom21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of VivianSent: Friday, January 12, 2007 12:12 PMTo: freedom21@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedom21] Re: hinged mast




http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146Above link is to a series of photos taken 9/4/06 (Labor Day) in good wind showing the “bending” of the CF mast. Max, feel free to add this album to the Freedom 21.info site.Sean— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “Sean Mulligan” <quadmulligan@…> wrote:>> Hi - My opinion is that the carbon fiber mast is best left intact and > not hinged. I would think the aluminum masts would be better suited to > hinging.> > I have no proof of this, just my experience playing around with our CF > mast while unstepping and restepping it. Oh, and noting the great > forces on the rig when we’ve got 20 knots of wind and everything up. It > is designed to bend and it seems putting a hinge in would radically > change the arc of that bend.> > Sean Mulligan #307> > — In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “billpeggyweber” <billpeggyweber@> > wrote:> >> > Does anyone have experience or picture/info on hinging the mast???> > I’ve got the info/spec’s from our site. Interested in opinions> > and any kind of help. Thanks.> >>



8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

3

Posted by Doug Chace (ch47_av8r@…>)

All,

I contacted Freedom Yachts during my search for a new mast.
They “no longer deal in sailboats”. They now only feature powered
yachts. They were rather unwilling/able to answer any of my
questions regarding the F21. If you choose to contact them, I trust
that your interaction will be more pleasant/useful than mine.

By the way, the biggest problem with hinging a CF mast is that if
you mess it up (which I could show you more than a dozen ways to do
just that), you’ll be looking at buying a new mast since many CF
manufacturers won’t warranty a repair on a mast they repair if they
didn’t manufacture it in the first place. Oh… a new mast
(cheapest I could find is $3500 - 4K) is a bit of a chunk of cash.

Ugly info, but hope its helpful.

Doug


— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, Sean Mulligan <quadmulligan@…>
wrote:

MessageYes, easier to just go to:
http://picasaweb.google.com/seanpmulligan

Your points are well made. My comments:

  1. The bend is more pronounced as the rig tapers and the greater
    forces of twist occur.

  2. I think the wind was 18 or 19 and shortly after these photos
    were shot I did douse the main and sailed on jib alone. Why? Because
    it was easier and safer to drop the main into lazyjacks than to go
    forward to take in the headsail. I am interested in other ideas for
    shortening sail when the wind comes up as it relates to the jib -
    what have others done? (other than add roller-furling, which I will
    not do because I like the gunsight rig for the chute and the ability
    to pole out the jib.

  3. I know nothing of windsurfer masts but I am in awe of the speed
    I see them go (and the strength it seems to take to ride one).

  4. I was unaware of any 1998 instructions from Freedom (TSP?) on
    the subject. Do you have it?

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: freedom21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Patrick Weaver
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:09 PM
To: freedom21@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [freedom21] Re:Masts–Hinged, CF, and Aluminum

In order to get to Sean’s pictures you need to paste the
link into your browser:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?
uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146

I’m not an engineer but a number of things strike me (after
wanting to go sailing):

  1.     The mast bend looks like a CF mast doing what it is

supposed to do: bending off on a breeze. But the bend is at the top
of the mast. Near the base (where the hinge would be) it appears
straight.

  1.     Judging by the bend, the heel, and the waves it looks

to me that the wind is blowing more than 10 knots. From what
I’ve read on the site, one should douse the jib over 10 knots.

  1.     It may not be an accurate comparision, but windsurfer

masts are mostly two-part masts and I’ve never broken one of
those, even with the crushing forces of the wishbone boom.

  1.     If Freedom was still willing to give out instructions

on how to install a mast hinge in 1998, it would seem to me that
they’d have had enough data back on breakages due to the
hinging of the mast. If there was data to suggest mast breakage,
I’d think that would have been added to the instructions.

The only negative information I have heard about the hinging of a
mast had to do with the aluminum masts where the combination of the
aluminum bending and the method of attaching the hinge to the mast
(rivets vs. epoxy) resulted in the hinge loosening within the mast
over time. Just my two cents.

I’d love to know where one can get the mast hinge assembly
(though I must admit that I have not called Freedom to find out).
I’d also love to know whether anyone has found a good source
for aluminum spars. I’ve been looking at flagpole companies
and I also found a possibility at http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Rig-
Rite_Spars/RigRite_Round_Masts.html

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: freedom21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Vivian
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 12:12 PM
To: freedom21@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedom21] Re: hinged mast

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/viewPhoto?
uname=seanpmulligan&aid=5019158960530449153&iid=5019159115149272146

Above link is to a series of photos taken 9/4/06 (Labor Day) in
good wind showing the
“bending” of the CF mast. Max, feel free to add this album to the
Freedom 21.info site.

Sean

— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “Sean Mulligan” <quadmulligan@>
wrote:

Hi - My opinion is that the carbon fiber mast is best left
intact and
not hinged. I would think the aluminum masts would be better
suited to
hinging.

I have no proof of this, just my experience playing around with
our CF
mast while unstepping and restepping it. Oh, and noting the
great
forces on the rig when we’ve got 20 knots of wind and everything
up. It
is designed to bend and it seems putting a hinge in would
radically
change the arc of that bend.

Sean Mulligan #307

— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “billpeggyweber”
<billpeggyweber@>
wrote:

Does anyone have experience or picture/info on hinging the
mast???
I’ve got the info/spec’s from our site. Interested in opinions
and any kind of help. Thanks.

8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

4

Posted by mike monahan (m1ke50@…>)
hi doug…
boat for sale…good carbon fibre mast… main sail 3 years old gunmount sale new…never used i was told…
----- Original Message ----From: Doug Chace <ch47_av8r@…>To: freedom21@yahoogroups.comSent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:50:20 PMSubject: [freedom21] Re:Masts–Hinged, CF, and Aluminum

All,I contacted Freedom Yachts during my search for a new mast. They “no longer deal in sailboats”. They now only feature powered yachts. They were rather unwilling/able to answer any of my questions regarding the F21. If you choose to contact them, I trust that your interaction will be more pleasant/useful than mine.By the way, the biggest problem with hinging a CF mast is that if you mess it up (which I could show you more than a dozen ways to do just that), you’ll be looking at buying a new mast since many CF manufacturers won’t warranty a repair on a mast they repair if they didn’t manufacture it in the first place. Oh… a new mast (cheapest I could find is $3500 - 4K) is a bit of a chunk of cash.Ugly info, but hope its helpful.Doug— In freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Mulligan <quadmulligan@ …>
wrote:>> MessageYes, easier to just go to:> http://picasaweb. google.com/ seanpmulligan> > Your points are well made. My comments:> > 1. The bend is more pronounced as the rig tapers and the greater forces of twist occur.> > 2. I think the wind was 18 or 19 and shortly after these photos were shot I did douse the main and sailed on jib alone. Why? Because it was easier and safer to drop the main into lazyjacks than to go forward to take in the headsail. I am interested in other ideas for shortening sail when the wind comes up as it relates to the jib - what have others done? (other than add roller-furling, which I will not do because I like the gunsight rig for the chute and the ability to pole out the jib.> > 3. I know nothing of windsurfer masts but I am in awe of the speed
I see them go (and the strength it seems to take to ride one).> > 4. I was unaware of any 1998 instructions from Freedom (TSP?) on the subject. Do you have it?> > > Sean > > > -----Original Message-----> From: freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Weaver> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:09 PM> To: freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com> Subject: RE: [freedom21] Re:Masts–Hinged, CF, and Aluminum> > > > > In order to get to Sean’s pictures you need to paste the link into your browser:> > > > http://picasaweb. google.com/ lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan &aid=50191589605 30449153& iid=501915911514 9272146> > > > I’m not an engineer but a number of things strike me (after wanting to go sailing):> > > > 1. The mast bend looks like a CF mast doing what it is supposed to do: bending off on a breeze. But the bend is at the top of the mast. Near the base (where the hinge would be) it appears straight.> > 2. Judging by the bend, the heel, and the waves it looks to me that the wind is blowing more than 10 knots. From what I’ve read on the site, one should douse the jib over 10 knots.> > 3. It may not be an accurate comparision, but windsurfer masts are mostly two-part masts and I’ve never broken one of those, even with the crushing forces of the wishbone boom.> > 4. If
Freedom was still willing to give out instructions on how to install a mast hinge in 1998, it would seem to me that they’d have had enough data back on breakages due to the hinging of the mast. If there was data to suggest mast breakage, I’d think that would have been added to the instructions.> > > > > > > > The only negative information I have heard about the hinging of a mast had to do with the aluminum masts where the combination of the aluminum bending and the method of attaching the hinge to the mast (rivets vs. epoxy) resulted in the hinge loosening within the mast over time. Just my two cents.> > > > I’d love to know where one can get the mast hinge assembly (though I must admit that I have not called Freedom to find out). I’d also love to know whether anyone has found a good source for aluminum
spars. I’ve been looking at flagpole companies and I also found a possibility at http://www.rigrite. com/Spars/ Rig-Rite_Spars/RigRite_ Round_Masts. html> > > > Patrick> > > -----Original Message-----> From: freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Vivian> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 12:12 PM> To: freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com> Subject: [freedom21] Re: hinged mast> > > > http://picasaweb. google.com/
lh/viewPhoto?uname=seanpmulligan &aid=50191589605 30449153& iid=501915911514 9272146> > Above link is to a series of photos taken 9/4/06 (Labor Day) in good wind showing the > “bending” of the CF mast. Max, feel free to add this album to the Freedom 21.info site.> > Sean> > — In freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com, “Sean Mulligan” <quadmulligan@ > wrote:> >> > Hi - My opinion is that the carbon fiber mast is best left intact and > > not hinged. I would think the aluminum masts would be better suited to > > hinging.> > > > I have no proof of this, just my experience playing around with our CF > > mast while unstepping and restepping it. Oh, and noting the great > > forces on the rig when we’ve got 20 knots of wind and everything
up. It > > is designed to bend and it seems putting a hinge in would radically > > change the arc of that bend.> > > > Sean Mulligan #307> > > > — In freedom21@yahoogrou ps.com, “billpeggyweber” <billpeggyweber@ > > > wrote:> > >> > > Does anyone have experience or picture/info on hinging the mast???> > > I’ve got the info/spec’s from our site. Interested in opinions> > > and any kind of help. Thanks.> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- —> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time> with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.>

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