responses to F33 Dreamin - Alan, Brandt

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1

Posted by leantruc (leantruc@…>)

Thanks Alan and Brandt for your input.
I found it interesting that you both found it noteworthy that your
boats were fixed keel versions. I had thought that the centerboard
design was an asset, but perhaps there’s something I dont know.
Enlighten me. I’ve noticed a variety of sail rigging configurations
booms vs. “wishbone” (sprits), mast track vs. ?; and a variety of
opinions to go with them. I recently down loaded an article: Why A
Cat Ketch? by B&B Yacht Designs
(http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm)
(this is where I picked up the “sprit” term)
The writer states that a tack requires only that one “put the helm
over”. This I understand. He goes on to say that a jibe is
accomplished the same way. Enlighten me. Further he states that in
landing down wind one can opt to “let go the sheets allowing the
sails to fly forward completely”. A wonderful concept I’d never
contemplated, but an F33 expert says no. Perhaps B&B rigs differtly.
I heard that the first dozen F33s had aft “staterooms”, though tiny,
in lieu of the quarter birth. Can anyone confirm? If the F32 can
work in aft “quarters” why not the F33?

2

Posted by leantruc (leantruc@…>)

Thanks Alan and Brandt for your input.
I found it interesting that you both found it noteworthy that your
boats were fixed keel versions. I had thought that the centerboard
design was an asset, but perhaps there’s something I dont know.
Enlighten me. I’ve noticed a variety of sail rigging configurations
booms vs. “wishbone” (sprits), mast track vs. ?; and a variety of
opinions to go with them. I recently down loaded an article: Why A
Cat Ketch? by B&B Yacht Designs
(http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm)
(this is where I picked up the “sprit” term)
The writer states that a tack requires only that one “put the helm
over”. This I understand. He goes on to say that a jibe is
accomplished the same way. Enlighten me. Further he states that in
landing down wind one can opt to “let go the sheets allowing the
sails to fly forward completely”. A wonderful concept I’d never
contemplated, but an F33 expert says no. Perhaps B&B rigs differtly.
I heard that the first dozen F33s had aft “staterooms”, though tiny,
in lieu of the quarter birth. Can anyone confirm? If the F32 can
work in aft “quarters” why not the F33?

3

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

I can speak to some of these questions.

In the B&B design, for simplicity, they are using a sprit -
essentially a long pole going from the clew to a point between the
tack and the head along the mast. It serves the same purpose of a
boom or a wishbone. The sprit in their designs is closest to a
wishbone rig with the difference that a wishbone has two curvatures,
meeting ahead of the mast and at the sail’s tack. The curvature
allows the sail to have shape on either tack, whereas with a sprit,
on one tack the sail is pressed up against the sprit, disturbing its
shape. The wishbone is more efficient, but it is also twice the
material. I think all F40’s and probably most F33’s were originally
equipped with wishbones.

When you see that a boat has a ‘standard’ boom, this generally means
that an owner has opted away from the wishbones and had the boat
refitted with a single, standard boom. This generally allows sails
to be larger and fully battened, giving the boat better performance
across a wider range of wind. There are advantages and disadvantages
to each rig, and if you search these archives, you’ll find a hundred
different opinions about which is a better rig. It will come down to
your personal preference.

Now, about fixed keel vs keel/centerboard. for pure performance, the
fixed keel, either deep or winged or even shoal, is going to
outperform a centerboard boat going up wind (better center of
effort). Off the wind - beam reach to “dead down wind” a centerboard
will generally outperform a keel boat (less wetted surface). If
you’re a cruiser, you may like the centerboard because it lets you
into places deep keel boats can’t go. On the Wanderer on which I
used to race, the centerboard was affectionately known as the ‘rock
finder.’

Tacking is as easy as they say - trim to close hauled and put the
helm over and hold it til the boat comes through. Scary easy - on
Bright Star, it’s become kind of a joke to announce the tack, since
it requires everyone on the crew to… well… carry on as they were.

I have to take exception to the stated method of jibing though.
regardless of boat design you should never let the boom (or booms)
swing free from one side of the boat to the other. Besides creating
a serious safety risk, the jarring stop of the boom at the other
side of the jibe can break things. Peoples’ techniques on this are
different - and they should change, depending on weather and
circumstances - but they should always end with a phrase like “and
EASE the boom out on the new side.” Getting the boom ALL the way out
(to avoid rounding up) is a big plus too, especially in a ketch,
especially with the mizzen.

The part about how far out you can let your sails depends on how
it’s rigged - wishbones, conventional boom - but without stays
holding up the mast, you should be able to get the booms at least to
perpendicular to the hull. Some on the group can even get them a
little ‘by the lee,’ which still makes me cringe from my Laser days
(another free-standing rig. ‘by the lee’ in a Laser almost
inevitably leads to ‘death roll’ followed by “OH SH*$!!!” followed
by “Splash!” followed by, if in a regatta, laughter.)

I’ll leave discussions of the interior design to others.

Cheers,
Lance

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “leantruc” <leantruc@y…>
wrote:

Thanks Alan and Brandt for your input.
I found it interesting that you both found it noteworthy that your
boats were fixed keel versions. I had thought that the
centerboard
design was an asset, but perhaps there’s something I dont know.
Enlighten me. I’ve noticed a variety of sail rigging
configurations
booms vs. “wishbone” (sprits), mast track vs. ?; and a variety of
opinions to go with them. I recently down loaded an article: Why
A
Cat Ketch? by B&B Yacht Designs
(http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm)
(this is where I picked up the “sprit” term)
The writer states that a tack requires only that one “put the helm
over”. This I understand. He goes on to say that a jibe is
accomplished the same way. Enlighten me. Further he states that
in
landing down wind one can opt to “let go the sheets allowing the
sails to fly forward completely”. A wonderful concept I’d never
contemplated, but an F33 expert says no. Perhaps B&B rigs
differtly.
I heard that the first dozen F33s had aft “staterooms”, though
tiny,
in lieu of the quarter birth. Can anyone confirm? If the F32 can
work in aft “quarters” why not the F33?

4

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

Since Lance answered on the rigs I’ll tell you what I know of the interiors.
The centerboard version has a large table covering the centerboard trunk. It
runs to the galley so you can only exit from one end (by the head) if seated on
the port side of the table. My understanding is that some folks didn’t like
that and it was part of the reason that prompted Freedom to offer the fixed
versions. There may have been other reasons.
Other than this I’m only aware of two cabins. After speaking with the designer
of the boat (Jay Paris) I believe the original was the tri cabin layout. The
cabin trunk was extended in the center further into the cockpit creating a
smaller U shaped cockpit with the wheel on the back of the cabin and an off
center companionway. I believe the galley may have been on one side of the the
boat and not u-shaped as in the two cabin arrangement. The key tradeoff being
more cabins less cockpit.
I have the 2 cabin shoal draft fixed keel with the rig converted to full
battens, non-wishbone booms.
I find it odd that although intellectually its clear that a cat ketch like this
requires no winching to tack until I actually sailed one I couldn’t fully
appreciate the experience. Short tacking is now a common thing even single
handed for long stretches.
Alan F-33 Hull #51

Quoting leantruc <leantruc@…>:

Thanks Alan and Brandt for your input.
I found it interesting that you both found it noteworthy that your
boats were fixed keel versions. I had thought that the centerboard
design was an asset, but perhaps there’s something I dont know.
Enlighten me. I’ve noticed a variety of sail rigging configurations
booms vs. “wishbone” (sprits), mast track vs. ?; and a variety of
opinions to go with them. I recently down loaded an article: Why A
Cat Ketch? by B&B Yacht Designs
(http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm)
(this is where I picked up the “sprit” term)
The writer states that a tack requires only that one “put the helm
over”. This I understand. He goes on to say that a jibe is
accomplished the same way. Enlighten me. Further he states that in
landing down wind one can opt to “let go the sheets allowing the
sails to fly forward completely”. A wonderful concept I’d never
contemplated, but an F33 expert says no. Perhaps B&B rigs differtly.
I heard that the first dozen F33s had aft “staterooms”, though tiny,
in lieu of the quarter birth. Can anyone confirm? If the F32 can
work in aft “quarters” why not the F33?



Alan
SoftwareCPR
www.softwarecpr.com

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