Tell me about a F 38 1988

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1

Posted by oodah999 (oodah999@…>)

Group,

I am a current Beneteau owner in the process of selling my Oceanis 321
looking to move up to a larger boat to cruise down the west coast of
Mexico. I have come across a 38 footer for sale and am completely
ignorant of Freedom Yachts. I have joined up here with the hope of
learning more about them.

If other owners here would like to answer some questions, I’d really
appreciate hearing from you.

Here goes- How well does the Yanmar 3GM drive the boat. My Beneteau
has the same engine but is a lot lighter so I am wondering at what
speed does a 38 cruise? How well do they point? Are blisters a
problem? What is up with the carbon fiber mast? I can’t believe they
were using carbon fiber back in the 80’s for a mast. What are some
pros and cons? The boats really look great. How is the mast supported
at the coach roof? any failures at that point?

Thanks for your input in advance,

Oodah999

2

Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)

What is up with the carbon fiber mast? I can’t believe they

were using carbon fiber back in the 80’s for a mast. What are some
pros and cons?

Pros - The rig stays up. Rig failures are rare unlike conventionally
stayed boat where failure of a single fitting can put your rig in
the water and endanger the boat and crew. Freestanding composite
masts have been around for quite a while. There was even a boat
builder in the 50’s that built boats with freestanding fiberglass
masts. Read Dan Spurr’s book “Heart of Glass.”

With a Freedom the mast automatically depowers the sail in a puff.
You can swing the boom further forward because there is no standing
rigging to get in the way. Not having standing rigging greatly
reduces the stress on a boat. A conventionally rigged boat has a big
stick pushing down on the keel, wires trying to bend the bow and
stern like a banana, and chainplates that can be a nightmare in
older boats.

Cons - mast can be weakened by owners and/or riggers that improperly
mount things on them. You can’t just drill a buch of holes in it. To
mount a rigid vang you need to have a collar fabricated. If a carbon
fiber mast is struck by lighting it’s probably toast. Repair of a CF
mast in a third world country could be difficult. If you can talk
the owner or broker into anchoring during the sea trial listen for
creaking or squeaking sounds while the boat rocks at anchor. It’s
nothing to worry about but the noise can be annoying.


The boats really look great. How is the mast supported

at the coach roof? any failures at that point?

Most Freedoms have keel stepped masts with a substantial aluminum
collar at the partner. I think all of the 38’s were built by
Tillotson Pearson, Inc. (TPI) Construction is great. The rudders are
bullet proof. Best rudderstock arrangement I’ve ever seen in a
production boat.

Thanks for your input in advance,

Oodah999

3

Posted by Jacqui MacConnell (jacimacc@…>)

Welcome “oodah”, and the Kuether family,

We find the Yanmar 3GM standard issue fine. If others
have repowered higher, perhaps they will write in and
give results. Other owners have longer experience, but
I find mine powers us along well at 5+ knots, strains
a bit at higher, but can acheive 6+. I don’t like to
push it. My engine has 2900+ hours on it, and folks
newly aboard have asked how come I got a new engine
on a 1986 boat? Not knowing it wasn’t. That would be
because of my great good fortune in buying behind
Brian Guptil, the boat’s owner for the 11 years prior.
Good man and true. Lucky me, lucky boat. And thanks
again, Sir Brian, for picking our family to be the
next
owners. Still happy about it here…

It does bring up the point that your surveyor will
begin revealing overall level of continuing care.
Inattention here and inattention there, can mean
suprises
coming down the line. The boats themselves were built
brilliantly. To ABS and to Lloyd’s of London
standards.
Very little to fault for a “production” sailboat.
There are
three references I would give each of your families:
“World’s
Best Sailboats” by Ferenc Mate’ (has a chapter on the
boat
and the TPI yard, very educational), the Practical
Sailor
review on the F36 (same boat absent the swim step
extension which later became standard), and Mr. Mark
Edwards at the TPI site, who is both amazingly
informed
and helpful.

Of interest, regarding the masts, is that their three
year test ground was in gorges and deserts, supporting
wind turbine blades. That inventor scientist, Ev
Pearson,
next went to TPI. That’s the proving ground for these
amazing power plants. The masts were gauranteed for
life to first owners. There are some members on this
list
who have gone 360 on the wrong axis in a hurricane
(doused) and came up with the mast standing and
intact.
I love that level of safety.

One writer once said “standard rigs have 21 potential
failure points; the Freedom has one.” And it tends
mostly
not to fail.

I was twelve years chosing my boat. Hope you guys
needn’t take that long. People ask me now if I’d
consider selling it. “Nope, it’s going into my
will…”
They literally don’t make 'em like this anymore.

Beyond your specific inquiries, the things I did not
know before ownership, and now like the best, are that
the boat is very fast, while always being very
seakindly.
Go figure. I don’t know how they did it, but this
particular
design is golden. It serves, and serves obediently.

It is also gratifying that most guests never need
leave the cockpit. As a new skipper, that reducees my
need to worriedly monitor people placement. The boom
clears the dodger, the guests are behind that. Never
the twain need meet. I can keep track of other things.

I could go on, but will let others who have put more
miles under their keel speak up. All the best in your
search. If either of your families wants a test sail,
I’m
in Bellingham and most happy to host you.

Kind Regards, Jacqui MacConnell
Sparrow 1986 F36/38 Hull No. 48




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4

Posted by Bob Frew (rfrew@…>)

I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted to
change the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me that
there was not enough room to install the prop. Has
anyone done this?
Bob, Freespirit.

5

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

I have an F-33 and it also has limited space for the prop. I selected a variprop for several reasons (no need to disassemble to adjust pitch, separate forward and reverse pitches, and a few other nice design features) . It also turned out it has the shortest length of any feathering prop I saw and it swapped right in without any changes to the prop shaft.
I spoke with Michael 804-436-0150 www.varipropusa.com. He was very responsive and quite knowledgable and the prop is terrific.
Hope this helps.
Alan Kusinitz F-33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Frew
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988
I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted tochange the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me thatthere was not enough room to install the prop. Hasanyone done this?Bob, Freespirit.

6

Posted by Jerome Weinraub (zayde@…>)

Very interested. Does it add sailing speed? How is it backing down? Did you get 2 or 3 blade?

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Kusinitz
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988

I have an F-33 and it also has limited space for the prop. I selected a variprop for several reasons (no need to disassemble to adjust pitch, separate forward and reverse pitches, and a few other nice design features) . It also turned out it has the shortest length of any feathering prop I saw and it swapped right in without any changes to the prop shaft.
I spoke with Michael 804-436-0150 www.varipropusa.com. He was very responsive and quite knowledgable and the prop is terrific.
Hope this helps.
Alan Kusinitz F-33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Frew
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988
I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted tochange the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me thatthere was not enough room to install the prop. Hasanyone done this?Bob, Freespirit.

7

Posted by Paul McFadden (pwhitmac@…>)




My Hoyt32 is/was fitted with a 2 blade 14" Max Prop. At the present it is running with the spare 14" fixed 3blade while I have PYI recondition the Max. I feel that your boat would take pretty any type of 14" prop, as there is adequate clearance. This is based on your shaft/strut has not been modified. One thing you might look into is the shaft size issue. My Hoyt has a 1" shaft, and the last I knew Autoprop’s smallest shaft size was 1 1/4", if that’s true another consideration is looking into a Max Prop. I’ve had them on my last three boats and they have performed flawlessly. It really is a superior prop. If you do decide to go with a Max Prop, email me for some input on pitch.
PWM




Bob Frew <rfrew@…> wrote: I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted tochange the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me thatthere was not enough room to install the prop. Hasanyone done this?Bob, Freespirit.
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8

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)

I got a 3 blade. Its available even in the 4 blade so if someone had a very small aperature for the prop they could still get enough blade area. It provides tremendous thrust in reverse. You can set pitch separately in reverse from forward so you can customize the tradeoff between thrust and prop walk. And unlike for forward you don’t have to worry about being able to reach max design RPM (at least to some degree) since you don’t run it long in reverse.
It definitely reduces drag when sailing. The difference depends on wave action point of sail etc. but I’d say conservatively 1/2 know and maybe more depending on the original prop your comparing against.
Note that although they claim you can adjust pitch while in the water you have to be careful not to lose the set screws (one for forward one for reverse) if you do so. You don’t have to dissaemble the prop but you do have to back out the set screws to make the adjustments.
Alan Kusinitz F-33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerome Weinraub
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988

Very interested. Does it add sailing speed? How is it backing down? Did you get 2 or 3 blade?

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Kusinitz
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988

I have an F-33 and it also has limited space for the prop. I selected a variprop for several reasons (no need to disassemble to adjust pitch, separate forward and reverse pitches, and a few other nice design features) . It also turned out it has the shortest length of any feathering prop I saw and it swapped right in without any changes to the prop shaft.
I spoke with Michael 804-436-0150 www.varipropusa.com. He was very responsive and quite knowledgable and the prop is terrific.
Hope this helps.
Alan Kusinitz F-33 Hull #51

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Frew
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988
I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted tochange the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me thatthere was not enough room to install the prop. Hasanyone done this?Bob, Freespirit.

9

Posted by CaptGoodSail@… (CaptGoodSail@…)



In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!

10

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)

PROPS

 When considering a different prop, it is most important to know what reduction gear ( transmission gearing ) you have . A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air. Ideally we should have a 4 to one reduction gear and a huge dia. folding prop.Of course a different shaft ( longer and fatter  ) and a repositioned strut may be in order to get a minimum of 15% hull clearance. I believe Yanmar provides 3 different ratios,  approx. 2 ,  3   and 4 to one.  Pitch would be changed accordingly.
 I ran for years with a factory installed 18" X 17 ", and could not understand why the choice and poor performance.  After, I digested Dave Gerr's book on props I dared and switched to a 20' X 19" and could still get 150 rpm from max,  Wow what a difference lots off reverse to get off mud banks ( no, not me ) and gained 1.5 knots cruise. Of course my fuel consumption went up from less than.75 gal / hr to about 1.25 gal/hr. Consumption on a diesel is approximately 1 gal. per 40hp per hr. I had previously only using 17 hp out of a 62 hp diesel. Not good for the engine.
 The 18' X 17' was the correct prop. for a 2 to one red. gear, I had a 3 to one.
 AndrePaul McFadden <pwhitmac@...> wrote:






My Hoyt32 is/was fitted with a 2 blade 14" Max Prop. At the present it is running with the spare 14" fixed 3blade while I have PYI recondition the Max. I feel that your boat would take pretty any type of 14" prop, as there is adequate clearance. This is based on your shaft/strut has not been modified. One thing you might look into is the shaft size issue. My Hoyt has a 1" shaft, and the last I knew Autoprop’s smallest shaft size was 1 1/4", if that’s true another consideration is looking into a Max Prop. I’ve had them on my last three boats and they have performed flawlessly. It really is a superior prop. If you do decide to go with a Max Prop, email me for some input on pitch.
PWM


Yanmar
Bob Frew <rfrew@…> wrote: I bought a 32 hoyt design this past year. I wanted tochange the prop to an autoprop. the yard told me thatthere was not enough room to install the prop. Hasanyone done this?Bob, Freespirit.


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11

Posted by William A. Cormack (wacormack@…>)

My 1986 F-36 Cruises at about 6 knots without strain with the 3GM30F engine
and an autoprop. Can be pushed higher. The only problem I have with this
engine is a leaking rear seal at about 3000 hours. The leak is small and
I’m rigging a way to catch it before it gets to the bilge. I’ve heard some
say that the 38 cruises faster.

Sailing performance is great except close hauled. Mine is shoal draft (4.5
feet) and wants to go sideways when hard on the wind. Off wind performance
more than makes up for this. After all, it’s said that gentlemen don’t sail
to weather anyway!

Bill

William A. Cormack, CPA
Principal and Chief Financial Officer
Whelan Associates, LLC, a Corporate Real Estate Service Firm
100 Faunce Corner Executive Center, Suite 150
500 Faunce Corner Road
North Dartmouth, MA 02747
Voice: 508-984-4100, Fax: 508-984-4101, Cell 508-254-5828
MailTo:wacormack@…
----- Original Message -----
From: “oodah999” <oodah999@…>
To: <freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:34 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988

\

Group,

I am a current Beneteau owner in the process of selling my Oceanis 321
looking to move up to a larger boat to cruise down the west coast of
Mexico. I have come across a 38 footer for sale and am completely
ignorant of Freedom Yachts. I have joined up here with the hope of
learning more about them.

If other owners here would like to answer some questions, I’d really
appreciate hearing from you.

Here goes- How well does the Yanmar 3GM drive the boat. My Beneteau
has the same engine but is a lot lighter so I am wondering at what
speed does a 38 cruise? How well do they point? Are blisters a
problem? What is up with the carbon fiber mast? I can’t believe they
were using carbon fiber back in the 80’s for a mast. What are some
pros and cons? The boats really look great. How is the mast supported
at the coach roof? any failures at that point?

Thanks for your input in advance,

Oodah999

Yahoo! Groups Links

12

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)



Capt Good Sail.

 Please note that my message was titled props.  NOT a prop for anyones specific yacht, i.e. F 32.
 Fuel consumption is proportional to horsepower used.
 A Pearson 424 with a W 63C burning .75 hp / hr is not using one half of the useable hp. Leads to glazzing of the cylinders.
 With only a 2 to 1 red. gear 18" was good,  20 " diameter would be  correct with a 3 to 1 red. gear.   I have seen 3 and 4 to 1 reduction gears in cruising sailboats.


 WHAT I WAS DISCUSSING WAS :  that given the option, choose the numericaly higher reduction gear as long as you have the required prop. clearance .    This way you will get more punch going into heavy seas.

 Andre.CaptGoodSail@... wrote:




In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!
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13

Posted by Jerome Weinraub (zayde@…>)

I think the tach pickup,on the Yanmar 3GM30 ,is on the engine,not the alternator. My F33 with a 27 hp 3gm30f,will turn 3600 RPM turning a 3 blade 15x13 prop,2.62 reduction.I get 6.7 kts@2800 rpm,at about 0.6 gph.

----- Original Message -----
From: CaptGoodSail@…
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988


In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!

14

Posted by Paul McFadden (pwhitmac@…>)




As far as I’m concerned, and by my own experience, you are correct. One caveat tho, My spare prop is a three blade fixed michigan, and is a 14x14. Installed on my 32 I can get just under the 3600 rpm max. inasmuch as I generally run around 2500 rpm this works out just about perfectly, and the engine stays right in the normal heat range. This is verified by the readings on an actual calibrated heat guage, which helps. I have considered a pyrometer, but really haven’t convinced myself of the necessity, as of yet.
One last thing. PYI, who I have the greatest respect for, are a bit off in their pitch recommendations. In my experience the have recommended a setting that is in reality one setting to low (fine). I have found this to be true on my last three props.
By the way, is the transmission on 32s a 2.36, or 2.63? I’m not in my boat, so I can’t verify it. Whatever it is, I believe that all the Hoyt32s came with the same transmission.
PWM




CaptGoodSail@… wrote:


In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!

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15

Posted by Mike Kovacic (sailslakemichigan@…>)
With all this talk about props and RPM’s, I own a Freedom 36 with a platform extension. Hull # 98. What is the optimum cruising rpm?

Thanks in advance for your reply…

MikePaul McFadden <pwhitmac@…> wrote:





As far as I’m concerned, and by my own experience, you are correct. One caveat tho, My spare prop is a three blade fixed michigan, and is a 14x14. Installed on my 32 I can get just under the 3600 rpm max. inasmuch as I generally run around 2500 rpm this works out just about perfectly, and the engine stays right in the normal heat range. This is verified by the readings on an actual calibrated heat guage, which helps. I have considered a pyrometer, but really haven’t convinced myself of the necessity, as of yet.
One last thing. PYI, who I have the greatest respect for, are a bit off in their pitch recommendations. In my experience the have recommended a setting that is in reality one setting to low (fine). I have found this to be true on my last three props.
By the way, is the transmission on 32s a 2.36, or 2.63? I’m not in my boat, so I can’t verify it. Whatever it is, I believe that all the Hoyt32s came with the same transmission.
PWM




CaptGoodSail@… wrote:


In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!



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16

Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Optimum cruise rpm. When everything is set up correctly, 20% below max RPM.Mike Kovacic <sailslakemichigan@…> wrote:

With all this talk about props and RPM’s, I own a Freedom 36 with a platform extension. Hull # 98. What is the optimum cruising rpm?

Thanks in advance for your reply…

MikePaul McFadden <pwhitmac@…> wrote:





As far as I’m concerned, and by my own experience, you are correct. One caveat tho, My spare prop is a three blade fixed michigan, and is a 14x14. Installed on my 32 I can get just under the 3600 rpm max. inasmuch as I generally run around 2500 rpm this works out just about perfectly, and the engine stays right in the normal heat range. This is verified by the readings on an actual calibrated heat guage, which helps. I have considered a pyrometer, but really haven’t convinced myself of the necessity, as of yet.
One last thing. PYI, who I have the greatest respect for, are a bit off in their pitch recommendations. In my experience the have recommended a setting that is in reality one setting to low (fine). I have found this to be true on my last three props.
By the way, is the transmission on 32s a 2.36, or 2.63? I’m not in my boat, so I can’t verify it. Whatever it is, I believe that all the Hoyt32s came with the same transmission.
PWM




CaptGoodSail@… wrote:


In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!



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17

Posted by Paul McFadden (pwhitmac@…>)

Presupposing you are propped to reach the max rpm of 3600 (or close to it) a glance at the fuel and torque tables say about 2500 rpm. Of course if you are either under or over propped, every thing changes. By the way, the engine I’m referring to is the 3GM30F…PWM
Mike Kovacic <sailslakemichigan@…> wrote:

With all this talk about props and RPM’s, I own a Freedom 36 with a platform extension. Hull # 98. What is the optimum cruising rpm?

Thanks in advance for your reply…

MikePaul McFadden <pwhitmac@…> wrote:





As far as I’m concerned, and by my own experience, you are correct. One caveat tho, My spare prop is a three blade fixed michigan, and is a 14x14. Installed on my 32 I can get just under the 3600 rpm max. inasmuch as I generally run around 2500 rpm this works out just about perfectly, and the engine stays right in the normal heat range. This is verified by the readings on an actual calibrated heat guage, which helps. I have considered a pyrometer, but really haven’t convinced myself of the necessity, as of yet.
One last thing. PYI, who I have the greatest respect for, are a bit off in their pitch recommendations. In my experience the have recommended a setting that is in reality one setting to low (fine). I have found this to be true on my last three props.
By the way, is the transmission on 32s a 2.36, or 2.63? I’m not in my boat, so I can’t verify it. Whatever it is, I believe that all the Hoyt32s came with the same transmission.
PWM




CaptGoodSail@… wrote:


In a message dated 2/28/2005 10:16:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrelaviolette@… writes:
A Yanmar 27 hp can turn anywhere from 14 inch diameter to as much as 20 inches for best thrust and efficiency at the expense of more drag under sail in lightish air.

Sorry but a Yanmar 3GM (27hp) cannot turn a prop much larger than 14". There is just not enough torque. 3GM Yanmars were mostly shipped with 2.36 reduction drives; some 2.61 and the manuals list a 3.2 gear, but I have never seen one in an auxilary sailboat. BTW all of the various gears have a common 3.16:1 ratio reverse gear. Generally most boats of simular displacement to your Freedom will wind up with a 14" dia, 12" pitch, 2 blade prop. You must make certian that the engine can get a full 3600RPMs without any visible black or blue smoke. Otherwise you are overloading your engine. The black smoke is unburned diesel fuel. That is why Andre’s fuel consumption went from .75 gal/hr to 1.25 after he installed a too large prop!

My old Pearson 424 with a Westerbeke 63C runs 2:1 reduction and an 18"X13" prop and gets full RPM, and runs at hull speed. Fuel consumption is just a tad under a Gal/hr at speed and about .75 at 2900 cruise speed. Initially we had tried a 20"X10" prop (becuase it was on the boat when we repowered) and the engine could not wind up more than 2900 RPM (3600RPM max).

Another tip, have a mechanic hookup a strobe tach on your engine and check your tachometer. I have found many to be easily 10-20% off – especially if the alternator has been upgraded to a Balmar or such since the pulleys are usually smaller than the std alternator.

I suggest that you not take seriously anything that Andre has said. What’s this about 62HP?? – obviously Andre doesn’t have a Yanmar 27! Or a Freedom 32!!

All in all —I do suggest a MAX-prop or an Auto-Stream (distributed by Martec Engineering) if your want a feathering prop. I have installed many of both! Both PYI and Martec will gladly run a calculation for you as to proper dia and pitch. But as Andre wisely commented you must have the reduction gear ratio handy when you order your new prop. You will find it on the silver nameplate on the top of the gear near the gear oil dipstick.

Cheers!



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18

Posted by oodah999 (oodah999@…>)

Dave, Jacqui,William and all:

Thanks so much for the input on a F-38. I surely would not have
guessed that only the added swim step makes a 38 out of a 36. Most
boats have a different beam dimension with the added two feet. If they
won’t sail close to the wind, how bad is it? My Beneteau only sails
between 35 and 40 degrees to the wind but a Catalina 320 can out point
me big time. Since props are in discussion, I replaced the three blade
Michigan on the Beneteau with a two blade Flex-o-Fold 12x16 if I
remember right. That is turned with a 2.61 to 1 gearbox ratio and
really made a difference in how the boat sailed. At the same time, I
got new sails from North so I could never tell which improvement
helped the most. All I know was it made it a completely different
boat. I also have the 3GM which seems to like to cruise about 2700 rpm
and still only use about .75 g/hr. If I crank it up to 3000, it uses
closer to 1 g/hr. On fairly light chop and 6 knots or less of headwind
I’m making 6.6 to 6.8 k/hr without a heading current.

I’m enjoying the discussions here.

Oodah

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “William A. Cormack”
<wacormack@w…> wrote:

My 1986 F-36 Cruises at about 6 knots without strain with the 3GM30F
engine
and an autoprop. Can be pushed higher. The only problem I have
with this
engine is a leaking rear seal at about 3000 hours. The leak is
small and
I’m rigging a way to catch it before it gets to the bilge. I’ve
heard some
say that the 38 cruises faster.

Sailing performance is great except close hauled. Mine is shoal
draft (4.5
feet) and wants to go sideways when hard on the wind. Off wind
performance
more than makes up for this. After all, it’s said that gentlemen
don’t sail
to weather anyway!

Bill

William A. Cormack, CPA
Principal and Chief Financial Officer
Whelan Associates, LLC, a Corporate Real Estate Service Firm
100 Faunce Corner Executive Center, Suite 150
500 Faunce Corner Road
North Dartmouth, MA 02747
Voice: 508-984-4100, Fax: 508-984-4101, Cell 508-254-5828
MailTo:wacormack@w…
----- Original Message -----
From: “oodah999” <oodah999@y…>
To: <freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:34 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Tell me about a F 38 1988

Group,

I am a current Beneteau owner in the process of selling my
Oceanis 321
looking to move up to a larger boat to cruise down the west coast
of
Mexico. I have come across a 38 footer for sale and am completely
ignorant of Freedom Yachts. I have joined up here with the hope of
learning more about them.

If other owners here would like to answer some questions, I’d
really
appreciate hearing from you.

Here goes- How well does the Yanmar 3GM drive the boat. My
Beneteau
has the same engine but is a lot lighter so I am wondering at what
speed does a 38 cruise? How well do they point? Are blisters a
problem? What is up with the carbon fiber mast? I can’t believe
they
were using carbon fiber back in the 80’s for a mast. What are some
pros and cons? The boats really look great. How is the mast
supported
at the coach roof? any failures at that point?

Thanks for your input in advance,

Oodah999

Yahoo! Groups Links

19

Posted by Jacqui MacConnell (jacimacc@…>)

Hello again Oodah. Sparrow carries a Martec
three-bladed feathering prop. She is the deep fin keel
version. Greater specifics, I’ll have to run down to
the boat and fetch. Pointing/ pinching I’ll have to
check with crew from last year’s race season. When
under motor and my timid don’t push it to groaning
approach, we make about 5.5 knots, and use very very
little fuel. Possibly less than .5GPH. I bought the
vessel from Brian in September of 2003, did not refill
until August of 2004. I wanted to be able to go a
whole year between stops at a “gas station”, but crew
was getting edgy (chicken.) Coulda made it, though! We
still had a half a tank after just all kinds of
cruising! Am considering a bumper sticker for my good
ancient Quattro that says “my other vehicle runs
before the wind…” Here’s the amazing thing, that
others can better address, as I am a newbie in this.
Though Freedoms are rumored not to be competitive due
to angles off wind, our actual experience is to win
races with only tradionally rigged vessels as our
competitors. Sometimes it is inspired innovative crew,
who says no, no, let’s go over THERE instead. But many
times it is because once we get positioned right, and
come screaming back in, no one can get around how we
are able to make up time. There is a rumor about that
one Freedom owner or designer long ago laid down $5000
back when, and said he’d challenge any other boat on
any three legged race. No takers. I believe it from
last year’s lark and results out here on little
Bellingham Bay. We even bested a spendy Santa Cruz 52
in real time. Don’t be misled by others concerns that
Freedoms can’t bring it. Boy howdee. Dinna know I’d
adopted a thoroughbred. Note that if it’s this list
you keep asking, you are clearly asking the choir to
sing to you. Kind regards, Jacqui Mac, Sparrow





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20

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

won’t sail close to the wind, how bad is it? My Beneteau only sails
between 35 and 40 degrees to the wind but a Catalina 320 can out

“only” 35-40 degrees to the wind?? hehe, those of us with Cat
Ketches can only dream :wink: Even a traditional rig of any vintage is
doing well at 45 degrees off true. What Capn Jacqi Mac Sparrow said
is true - Freedoms generally don’t point with boats of similar size,
but they make up for it in power and speed. The rigs are capable of
pushing the boats at hull speed, and I imagine that there’s got to
be a small amount of advantage in the ease with which one goes from
tack to tack - no big winches to grind, if you’re racing then maybe
for looks you’ve got someone to adjust the mainsheet traveller
(assuming you have one - I don’t).

I’ve also been thinking about the “big stick” theory, that having
such a massive mast somehow contributes to the inability of these
boats to point. While I’m sure that there is some effect, I’ve been
wondering lately if that single point of massiveness can possibly be
worse than shrouds and spreaders all over the place. It would seem
to me that on most points of sail, shrouds would provide more wind
resistance and drag than a single, clean (albeit massive) mast.
That’s what I get for thinking too much.

I think you’ll find that an F-38 is a well-built, well-behaved,
enjoyable vessel that will hold her own ‘around the buoys.’

Lance
Bright Star, F40 CK