Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?
Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?
See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^P
mike
Posted by Robert Lockhart (rlockhart@…>)
While searching for my 28CK I spoke to a gentleman whose father had
converted and regretted it ever since. Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Capel [mailto:mike_c_f35ck@…]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] What’s wrong with wishbones??
Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?
Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?
See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^P
mike
Yahoo! Groups Links
Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Robert.
I agree, wholeheartedly. I did the same thing, and have been looking to to find a wishbone to go back to where I was. For one think, without the wrap around sail, windward ability suffers fiercely. Does anyone know where I might find a wishbone for the main on a Freedom 33?
(I heard from one outfit, making them, for about $4000 . (Heck, I replaced my main mast for less thant hat !)Robert Lockhart <rlockhart@…> wrote:
While searching for my 28CK I spoke to a gentleman whose father hadconverted and regretted it ever since. Robert -----Original Message-----From: Michel Capel [mailto:mike_c_f35ck@…] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: [freedomyachts2003] What’s wrong with wishbones??Guys,Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch? Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^PmikeYahoo! Groups Links
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Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
I want to know where those used wishbones wind up, cause I am looking for one !Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:
Guys,Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch? Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
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Posted by larry buckley (connlb@…>)
Having just bought my F-33 it has the original sails and during sea trials it was very hard to get the sails up. The block that hoists the wishbone got in the way and the sail does not hoist up very easily. In fact the mizzen block hung up and let go, which of course let the boom come crashing down!!! Of course, since I have only sailed a conventional sloop rig; thats what I am use to. That does not really help me make an informed decision on which rig to use.
So guys, pitch on in with some pro and con!!
Frank Minelli <myslo@…> wrote:
I want to know where those used wishbones wind up, cause I am looking for one !Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote: Guys,Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch? Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
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Posted by seatimsboat@… (seatimsboat@…)
To raise lower or reef the sail you have to release the outhaul so that the luff is not under tension and the boom can move freely. On my 40 in strong winds when the luff is pushed against the mast I use the reef down hauls to pull the sails down. Tim
Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)
You also need to loosen the outhaul on the conventional booms to make
things go easier.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, seatimsboat@a… wrote:
To raise lower or reef the sail you have to release the outhaul so
that the
luff is not under tension and the boom can move freely. On my 40 in
strong
winds when the luff is pushed against the mast I use the reef down
hauls to pull
the sails down. Tim
Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
Frank,
I’ve heard some people offering their wishbones for sale because they
want to convert to standard booms… convince someone to convert
and buy their wishbones!
Mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli <myslo@y…>
wrote:
Robert.
I agree, wholeheartedly. I did the same thing, and have been
looking to to find a wishbone to go back to where I was. For one
think, without the wrap around sail, windward ability suffers
fiercely. Does anyone know where I might find a wishbone for the main
on a Freedom 33?
(I heard from one outfit, making them, for about $4000 . (Heck, I
replaced my main mast for less thant hat !)Robert Lockhart <rlockhart@t…> wrote:
While searching for my 28CK I spoke to a gentleman whose father had
converted and regretted it ever since. Robert-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Capel [mailto:mike_c_f35ck@y…]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] What’s wrong with wishbones??Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
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Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
It’s true that the hoist of wrap around sails is tough, I can only
hoist my F33 mizzen by hand. On the other hand, if you put an extra
block on the top of the sail and a longer halyard, it should be
possible.
what you may have forgotten as former sloop - sailor, is to release
the outhaul! Before lowering or hoisting, you should always release
the outhaul to relieve the pressure off the forward wishbone end.
some cons of the wishbone and wraparounds:
some pro’s:
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, larry buckley <connlb@y…>
wrote:
Having just bought my F-33 it has the original sails and during sea
trials it was very hard to get the sails up. The block that hoists
the wishbone got in the way and the sail does not hoist up very
easily. In fact the mizzen block hung up and let go, which of course
let the boom come crashing down!!! Of course, since I have only
sailed a conventional sloop rig; thats what I am use to. That does
not really help me make an informed decision on which rig to use.
So guys, pitch on in with some pro and con!!Frank Minelli <myslo@y…> wrote:
I want to know where those used wishbones wind up, cause I am
looking for one !Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:
Guys,Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomyachts2003/To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
hey, good idea, Mike. Ok you wishbone haters, convert, convert ! and let me have your good old bone.Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:
Frank,I’ve heard some people offering their wishbones for sale because they want to convert to standard booms… convince someone to convert and buy their wishbones!Mike— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli <myslo@y…> wrote:> Robert.> > I agree, wholeheartedly. I did the same thing, and have been looking to to find a wishbone to go back to where I was. For one think, without the wrap around sail, windward ability suffers fiercely. Does anyone know where I might find a wishbone for the main on a Freedom 33?> (I heard from one outfit, making them, for about $4000 . (Heck, I replaced my main mast for less thant hat !)> > Robert Lockhart <rlockhart@t…> wrote:> While searching for my 28CK I spoke to a gentleman
whose father had> converted and regretted it ever since. Robert > > -----Original Message-----> From: Michel Capel [mailto:mike_c_f35ck@y…] > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM> To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [freedomyachts2003] What’s wrong with wishbones??> > > > Guys,> > Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional > rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch? > > Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in > Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the dock?> > See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of > wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^P> > mike> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > > > > >
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT> > > ---------------------------------> Yahoo! Groups Links> > To visit your group on the web, go to:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomyachts2003/> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > ---------------------------------> Do you Yahoo!?> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
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Posted by akusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
When I was looking to buy my F-33 I saw only one in the US with
wishbones and even it had been converted to have a sail track (but
retained the wishbones). The nonsuch boats and the wylie cats I
believe have the wishbones with sail track not wraparounds.
I would was interested in the original rig but the only boats with
it I saw were outside the US.
When purchased my boat had north full battened sails with battcars
and they work quite well. I have no basis to compare with the
original rig. Prior owners complained of raising, lowering, and
reefing especially in heavy winds but I have no personal experience.
Alan
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:
Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a
conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
If I buy a new set of sails, I would probably go for a track too, but
I will keep my wishbones. The reason? With full battens and full
roach I could have more sail aloft, something the F33 really needs.
The Wyliecat is a good example of how I’d like my rig to be. One
point however is that Wylie mast, which is much more flexible aloft
than the Freedom masts. Freedom always tried to make the masts as
stiff as they could get them, while on lots of other catboats, (finn,
laser, nonsuch, wylie) the flexing masttop is part of the concept
behind the rig type.
One thing I would worry about if I would have a masttrack: Could I
still wing out the main sail over the bow and fill the gap between
main and mizzen with my mizzen gennaker?
And indeed Alan, raising a wraparound mainsail is an outright pain in
the butt. Reefing is easy with a simple two line reefing system; I do
that drill with my eyes closed from the cockpit in les than a minute
for both sails. Lowering is also easy, but i made a small adaptation
to the rig; I made downhaul lines with which I can tear down and
fixate both sails in 20 seconds.
mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “akusinitz”
<akusinitz@s…> wrote:
When I was looking to buy my F-33 I saw only one in the US with
wishbones and even it had been converted to have a sail track (but
retained the wishbones). The nonsuch boats and the wylie cats I
believe have the wishbones with sail track not wraparounds.
I would was interested in the original rig but the only boats with
it I saw were outside the US.
When purchased my boat had north full battened sails with battcars
and they work quite well. I have no basis to compare with the
original rig. Prior owners complained of raising, lowering, and
reefing especially in heavy winds but I have no personal experience.
Alan— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a
conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons
of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Posted by seatimsboat@… (seatimsboat@…)
I sailed on a 44 with a track and the owner cautioned me against sailing by the lea as when he had attempted to let the boom out beyond 90 degrees the battens had sufficient leverage to either pull the cars from the track or pull the track from the mast.I agree that the additional sail area provided by the larger roach would be nice to have . As I said before I am looking into the James Wharram “soft wing” sail. It seems to be ideally suited for the freedom rig. In fact he says in his article that his rig is a development of the original freedom wraparound wishbone rig. What do you think? Tim
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
I think the main reason that Bright Star was originally converted was
to get a little more sail area aloft than a wishbone rig could
provide. She was originally in Jacksonville Florida, then on the
Chesapeake… My guess is that they were trying to maximize
light/fluky wind performance.
As for the comment about flimsy goosenecks, the ss collars that make
up my goosenecks dont’ seem the least bit flimsy to me, and I can run
dead down wind with the masts at 90 deg.
I don’t have a degree in fluid dynamics or anything, but I’m not sure
I’m buying into a sleeved sail having a better edge into the wind. I
haven’t actually seen a sleeved sail on a Freedom, but one would
surmise that the sleeve further increases the effective diameter of
the masts. Wind of any velocity blasting into those stumps would
probably not get laminar to the sail until well into the belly of the
luff, regardless of rig. But like I said, I’m only guessing here.
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:
Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
Lance,
Interesting that you mention the laminar flow. I’m reading Garry
Hoyt’s booklet Ready About at this time and he eventually conceded
that full battens and an ordinairy boom is probably more effective -
because you can have moor sail aloft. To make sure that the laminar
flow gets back to the surface of the sail, you indeed probably need
sleeves up to halfway to the leech. I can see that easily on my two
ply sails; they flapper up to halfway to the leech.
But Lance, imagine that you could swing out your booms to 60 degrees
forward…
Cheerio
Mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:
I think the main reason that Bright Star was originally converted
was
to get a little more sail area aloft than a wishbone rig could
provide. She was originally in Jacksonville Florida, then on the
Chesapeake… My guess is that they were trying to maximize
light/fluky wind performance.As for the comment about flimsy goosenecks, the ss collars that
make
up my goosenecks dont’ seem the least bit flimsy to me, and I can
run
dead down wind with the masts at 90 deg.I don’t have a degree in fluid dynamics or anything, but I’m not
sure
I’m buying into a sleeved sail having a better edge into the wind.
I
haven’t actually seen a sleeved sail on a Freedom, but one would
surmise that the sleeve further increases the effective diameter of
the masts. Wind of any velocity blasting into those stumps would
probably not get laminar to the sail until well into the belly of
the
luff, regardless of rig. But like I said, I’m only guessing here.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a
conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons
of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Posted by Michel Capel (mike_c_f35ck@…>)
Tim,
It’s a pity Paul de Reus doesn’t wisit here anymore, perhaps I should
call him to make him get back here. He has an F33 and had new sails
made with a large luff sleeve, like the Wharram sails. He has full -
or almost full - battens, like on surfboard sails. Very full roach
and no (ugly, i.m.h.o.) leg-of-mutton (funny small gaff built into
the sail). the luff sleeve has a zipper and velcro and a few straps
and buckles.
cheerio, mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, seatimsboat@a… wrote:
I sailed on a 44 with a track and the owner cautioned me against
sailing by
the lea as when he had attempted to let the boom out beyond 90
degrees the
battens had sufficient leverage to either pull the cars from the
track or pull the
track from the mast.I agree that the additional sail area provided
by the
larger roach would be nice to have . As I said before I am looking
into the James
Wharram “soft wing” sail. It seems to be ideally suited for the
freedom rig.
In fact he says in his article that his rig is a development of the
original
freedom wraparound wishbone rig. What do you think? Tim
Posted by akusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
My F-33 has the hardware for mizzen staysails/spinnakers etc. but no
sail so I have no experience in this and have been wondering if it
would be worthwhile with the fully battened mains at least for light
air.
With the mast track and gooseneck and straight boom I can wing out
the main and mizzen a little more then 90 degrees. The sales have
battcars which extend a bitt and pivot so the sails are not
stretched against the mast. Obviously the distance the gooseneck and
slides/battcars extend would effect the maximum angle.
The wishbone and wraparounds ability to rotate much further seems a
great feature in some situations.
Anyone have thoughts on use of the mizzen staysails with the
standard booms and fully battened main and mizzen and whether
they’re worth it? A few sailmakers have told me they wouldn’t think
so. But it would seem in light air a large one could make sense, no?
Alan
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:
If I buy a new set of sails, I would probably go for a track too,
but
I will keep my wishbones. The reason? With full battens and full
roach I could have more sail aloft, something the F33 really
needs.
The Wyliecat is a good example of how I’d like my rig to be. One
point however is that Wylie mast, which is much more flexible
aloft
than the Freedom masts. Freedom always tried to make the masts as
stiff as they could get them, while on lots of other catboats,
(finn,
laser, nonsuch, wylie) the flexing masttop is part of the concept
behind the rig type.One thing I would worry about if I would have a masttrack: Could
I
still wing out the main sail over the bow and fill the gap between
main and mizzen with my mizzen gennaker?And indeed Alan, raising a wraparound mainsail is an outright pain
in
the butt. Reefing is easy with a simple two line reefing system; I
do
that drill with my eyes closed from the cockpit in les than a
minute
for both sails. Lowering is also easy, but i made a small
adaptation
to the rig; I made downhaul lines with which I can tear down and
fixate both sails in 20 seconds.mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “akusinitz”
<akusinitz@s…> wrote:When I was looking to buy my F-33 I saw only one in the US with
wishbones and even it had been converted to have a sail track
(but
retained the wishbones). The nonsuch boats and the wylie cats I
believe have the wishbones with sail track not wraparounds.
I would was interested in the original rig but the only boats
with
it I saw were outside the US.
When purchased my boat had north full battened sails with
battcars
and they work quite well. I have no basis to compare with the
original rig. Prior owners complained of raising, lowering, and
reefing especially in heavy winds but I have no personal
experience.
Alan— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel”
<mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:Guys,
Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a
conventional
rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch?Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence
in
Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on
the
dock?See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and
cons
of
wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^Pmike
Posted by Thomas Carlton (Finesse@…>)
There is a GREAT photo of Ketch 22 under mizzen staysail on the Yahoo site.
Thomas
F-33 L’Audace
Posted by George Fisher (wildenergyfreedom2007@…>)
What do you think about Gary Hoyt’s book? If it is worth while, where can I get a copy?Michel Capel <mike_c_f35ck@…> wrote:
Lance,Interesting that you mention the laminar flow. I’m reading Garry Hoyt’s booklet Ready About at this time and he eventually conceded that full battens and an ordinairy boom is probably more effective - because you can have moor sail aloft. To make sure that the laminar flow gets back to the surface of the sail, you indeed probably need sleeves up to halfway to the leech. I can see that easily on my two ply sails; they flapper up to halfway to the leech. But Lance, imagine that you could swing out your booms to 60 degrees forward…CheerioMike— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley” <lance_ryley@y…> wrote:> > I think the main reason that Bright Star was originally converted was > to get a little more sail area aloft than a wishbone rig
could > provide. She was originally in Jacksonville Florida, then on the > Chesapeake… My guess is that they were trying to maximize > light/fluky wind performance.> > As for the comment about flimsy goosenecks, the ss collars that make > up my goosenecks dont’ seem the least bit flimsy to me, and I can run > dead down wind with the masts at 90 deg. > > I don’t have a degree in fluid dynamics or anything, but I’m not sure > I’m buying into a sleeved sail having a better edge into the wind. I > haven’t actually seen a sleeved sail on a Freedom, but one would > surmise that the sleeve further increases the effective diameter of > the masts. Wind of any velocity blasting into those stumps would > probably not get laminar to the sail until well into the belly of the > luff, regardless of rig. But like I said, I’m only guessing here.> >
Lance> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Michel Capel” > <mike_c_f35ck@y…> wrote:> > > > Guys,> > > > Why is everybody removing their wishbones and buying a conventional > > rig as soon as they purchased a Freedom catketch? > > > > Is it just plain (American?) conservatism, lack of confidence in > > Garry Hoyt’s design capabilities or fear to be laughed at on the > dock?> > > > See if we can have a heated discussion about the pro’s and cons of > > wishbones and ordinary booms. ;^P> > > > mike
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Posted by Brian Guptil (sailordude@…>)
Alan
Mizzen StaySail.
I do not have a lot of time with the stay sail up, but found it to give a significant speed improvement in the beam to near broad reach range, in light winds. As you fall off further, the staysail blocks the main and well, lets not go there. If your cruising area includes those types of sailing, they are fun. As you know, they sheet of the end of the mizzen boom and tie off to a centerline rail of the windward rail. The 44 has running backs used with the stay sail.
My web site has a photo of Cayenne broad reaching under staysail, light winds
Brian Guptil sailordude@…1735 112th Ave NE www.brigup.comBellevue, WA. 98004-3706