Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Boat handling, ideas, questions...

Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby mtryon » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:49 am

I'm wondering if some more experienced F32 owners can give me some ball park numbers on how close winded I should expect my F32 to perform...and when I should stop trying and tweaking things because that's as good as it's going to get. I've searched for this info and there's lots of talk of using genoas instead of the camberspar jib, but seems it's not that much different for the effort and cost involved. So some good average numbers in degrees will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby GeoffSchultz » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:08 am

Clearly you don't understand the concept of a boat! A boat is designed to never be done and require constant tinkering so that it drains you of all available time and cash. Once those are exhausted, there will still be one more thing...

Sorry that I couldn't provide any real help, but I couldn't resist...

:lol: Geoff
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby Rick Simonds » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:23 am

In flat water and moderate wind my Hoyt 32 will tack in 100 degrees, 50 either side of the true wind. The more race-orented boats will be at about 90, outpointing me by about 5 degrees on either tack. As the conditions get bouncy their advantage will reduce and we'll be a little more evenly matched

My $.02 worth: Don't try to point higher, it won't work, stay at 50 degrees off and go for higher boat speed. Pointing higher will just increase my leeway so much that I'ml probably still making good about 50, just at a much lower speed.

Trim for speed. My correct sail trim will show up as minimal weather helm. A touch of weather helm is an advantage but if I need more than about half a spoke of wheel, I tighten the halyards and the cunningham (not everyone has one) then start moving the traveler down until it disappears. Dragging the rudder sideways through the water is a wonderful speed killer.

The old sail trim adage about "when in doubt, let it out" seems really true on my 32. I've never had any luck with the boom right over the centerline, I do best with it over the leeward side of the companionway. The camberspar jib is very easy to over-tighten, too. The camberspar itself makes the jib look just fine, it has a nice-looking shape, but it's not generating much. Just a few inches inside the raised cabin top is about the tighest it can be.

My best approach to windward is always flying everything softer, looser and farther out than many boats. I trim so the boat is smooth and sleek and I sail for SPEED, not for pointing. At the windward mark I'm usually behind the racers and in front of the other cruisers.

(Side note, but kind of related: getting rid of the ridiculously bulky, solid 3-bladed propeller I had in favor of a feathering 3-blade propeller has made a very real sailing improvment in everything, but it shows up especially well when getting to windward. More speed + less leeway = greatly improved VMG. "Bang for the buck"-wise, it's one of the best improvements I've done.)
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby daletournier » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:46 am

I agree with Rick particularly with over tightening jib and feathering prop. I recently had a new jib made and it came with tell tales, the tell tales really showed me that more often than not i was sheeting the jib abit tight. My wind gauge shows me pointing a little higher than what Rick suggests but at the cost of speed. Bearing away a little and using your traveller really makes a difference. Being a relatively short cruising boat weight distribution ( trim ) makes a significant difference as well. Purchasing a new main soon and will be interested to see if theres a difference going to wind.

Cheers Dale Tournier.
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby Rick Simonds » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Dale,

I bought a new main about 4 years ago. I've made so many changes that I can't say if the new main makes a difference specifically to windward but it is a big difference in getting the boat to balance. My new sail is about 10" shorter on the foot measurement than the old one so, effectively, the sail plan is farther forward. I'm not necessarily recommending that the foot be made shorter, I don't know enough about it to comment, but that's the most visible difference between them and I do like the way the boat sails now. The new sail requires much less everything; less halyard and outhaul tension, far less vang. It has a much wider tolerance of trim adjustment, without a lot of tweaking it still "feels right." And now my Aries windvane works like it is supposed to. My old one was the original 1984 sail that came with the boat. The fabric was still strong enough but I'm sure the shape had blown out of it years ago. The new one is quite a difference.

BTW, I read the cruising reports of you and your 32 with great interest and, yes, a little bit of envy. Keep 'em coming.
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby daletournier » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:21 pm

Hi Rick, my current main has a 13' 8" foot which i believe to be 8" longer than standard ( according to info from a previous owner ). The bigger main suits me as not alot of breeze where im currently cruising yet i do have a fair bit of weather helm which could be a result of sail now being a bit baggy and actively use most sail controls. Looking forward to new main. Wet season here now so not heading off again until next year, enjoying sitting at Langkawi doing maintaince making Freeform better. Looking forward to Borneo, Phillipines, Png and Solomons next year ( cant wait ).
Cheers Dale
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby mtryon » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Hey guys! Thanks so much for all the great info. Rick and Dale, every time I read posts with really good and interesting info it turns out to be from YOU two guys! I should just print all your posts and put them in a binder! Ha! (Rick, I did exactly that with your "Gun Mount" tutorial! Great stuff!!)

Well, I sailed Bamboleo for only the second time this past Sunday. I sailed her in a local PHRF "cruisers race" here in San Diego (non spinnaker). The course was 6 miles to weather, and 6 miles downwind back. (NO reaching leg...darn it!) It was a VERY interesting experience and I learned a lot about the boat, and also learned that I don't know much about trimming this funny Freedom rig going to weather. Rick, you are so right; "when in doubt let it out". I must say, at the start of the race, I must have scared the crap out of the 25 boat fleet. I guess cruisers are a bit less inclined to mix it up around the starting line so at the start I hit the line at the gun all powered up, looked back, and the fleet was WAY behind. Now I'm thinking...this can't last for long. Sure enough within a half-mile the big Catalina 42 went past me big time and was pointing a good 10 degrees higher. Rick, I did as you said and totally went for boat speed...actually I focused on saling VMG to Wind (not the mark) and that's the best I could do, about 5.5 knots of boat speed but nearly 60 degrees off the wind in 9 to 10 knots true wind speed...so if you are able to get ten more degrees to weather then I do have a problem. By the time I got to the weather mark all but 4 or 5 boats had passed me and I was looking forward to the legendary off wind performance of my big main. But it was not to be. At first I got her going well and was gaining, but the wind started to die on me and I simply ran out of race track to the finish line. Oh well... All in all it was a great day. I finished 11th out of 25 or so boats. But....when a Willard 8 ton beats you all the way around the course, you know you have a problem! LOL!!

I found several things that are seriously wrong, and also new to me. First; and maybe the biggest problem going to weather; my camber spar doesn't flop over the same on each tack. On starboard it just flops back to vertical and even sometimes stays stuck to weather killing the jib shape. Even when it flops to the correct side, maybe it's STILL not flopping enough? I don't know how much it is supposed to do, so I am going to take it apart and see where the problem is and what is binding up. Also, the jib has a cupped leach. I thought the leach line was simply too tight, so I eased it out, but with the cut of this jib, it's either cupped to weather or fluttering cupped to weather. I know that curled back leach is disturbing the flow in the slot big time. I will have to take that over to North Sails here in SD and see what they can do about that. Also, I don't understand how effective the clew outhaul is on the camber spar. There are several slots to tension it but the ALL look like they tighten the foot too much. The foot line is also ineffective. Loosened all the way the foot is just too flat and bringing the clew end in on the camber spar doesn't ease it and give it any more shape either. Any ideas? Maybe this jib is just plain cut wrong. I noticed too that when the bottom third of the jib is trimmed correctly the top third is twisted off to leeward, and since the Freedom rig has no provision for a jib car, I can't see a way to get the twist out of the jib. Ideas anyone?

The main looked great. Don't fully battened mains ALWAYS look great? Ha! I think in this light air here in SD I may put in some more batten tension to see if that helps---dunno though. I'm new to this type of sail. If you guys have any thoughts on batten tension I'd appreciate your input.

The last thing that bugged me was that sitting on the high side I can't see the jib tell tails, so I had to sit low side all the time. Gotta move some tell tails for a better view. (they are old yarns anyway) I need to put the newer tape style on there. I did put new tell tails on the leach of the main and that help me trim easier. I found I had to use just a "hint" of vang going to weather and that seemed to get the top panels of the main back in the game and not twisted off.

Lastly, Geoff; you are soooo right. Silly me. So far she's taken all of my cash. Now she's working on taking all my time!
But I love her!
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Marty
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Re: Freedom 32 (Hoyt) Numbers Sailing to Weather

Postby Rick Simonds » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:35 am

According to a discussion I had with Dave Berig, the inventer of the Camberspar jib: The equivalent to moving the jib sheet car of a conventional rig (i.e.- adjusting the leech tension of the jib) is to make the headstay of the Camberspar jib looser or tighter. You can't do this underway like you can with a regular jib car, you have to just set it for about the right setting for whatever you think is "average".

(Gulp... I hope I'm remembering a phone call from 10 years ago correctly:) Loosening the headstay loosens the Camberspar jib's leech and tightening the headstay tightens the leech. If the top of your jib is luffing when the bottom isn't, the leech is too loose, so if I'm correctly remembering which way is which, I think your headstay is too loose. That wire isn't a headstay at all, it's more of sort of a "guide" for the luff of the sail. Compared to a normal headstay it should be really, REALLY, whackydoodle, floppy loose, or at least I'd start from there and tighten it a little at a time until I liked the result. The standard test for leech tension is to watch the luff of the sail as you steer into a tack. The whole luff, top to bottom, should "break" (go soft) at the same time as you get headed straight into the wind. If the top of the luff breaks first the leech is too loose, if the bottom breaks first the leech is too tight. (I actually think that all-at-once is a little too tight; I'd have the top break just a smidgon ahead of the bottom.) With a Camberspar jib this setting is changed by altering the headstay tension, it is a compromise for all conditions so play with it over several days of sailing and, if anything, I'd err on the side of having the leech a bit too loose, not too tight.

My $0.02 worth for leech line adjustment on any boat: If you actually need to tighten them more than the tiniest amount what you really need is a sailmaker. Most sailors should set them to "not floppy slack but also not really doing anything", then leave them like that for the rest of thier lives.

I don't worry about batten tension very much either. Batten stiffness is more important than batten tension, and I'm not hardcore enough to start messing with the stiffness. I think the tension should be set to low tension in most cases, and definitely set low in the bottom ones, with only enough tension to remove any wrinkles in the batten pockets. More batten tension pre-bends the battens and forces more/deeper camber into the sail and less tension means less camber. That means that if the main is old, the sail probably has streached to have too much camber, so I'd use low batten tension to try to flatten it, and if the sail is new, the batten tension should probably be low so you don't change the camber that the sail designer has built into the sail. On my boat it comes down to a practical matter: if the battens don't reliably flip to the other side when I tack in light air they are too tight, otherwise I've never seen a huge difference. Maybe a little extra in the top 2 battens but, really, other variables are bigger.

My Camberspar won't always flip to the other tack in very light wind either but yours should have worked easily in 10-ish knots. It should flip to exactly the right angle too, and that angle changes automatically depending on how far it is sheeted in or out. Check that the forward fitting rotates freely, I guess. Don't know that one. Shoulda worked in that much wind.

Overall I'd guess you should fix the hooked leeches and experiment with trimming for flatter sails. Your pointing should improve.
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