Thru hulls without seacocks

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SunnyIsleMark
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:42 am

Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by SunnyIsleMark »

During the survey for my recently purchased F28, the surveyor noted that the cockpit drain hoses, manual bilge pump hose, and propane vent hose were all connected to thru hulls near or below waterline, without a seacock. He suggested that current safety code require any thru hull below water, even when heeled over under sail) have a seacock fitted. I'm assuming that the F30. F32, and perhaps others, have similar arrangements.
While none of these would ever be shut during normal use, or even when leaving the boat unattended, I can understand the rationale for safety.
I'm curious how many Freedom owners have fitted seacocks in these locations, or have simply monitored hose/clamp integrity?

SV_Pyari
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Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by SV_Pyari »

Thru hulls below the waterline are fitted with a seacock. The ones ~1 feet above waterline are not, which is fine since my boat was spec'd for smaller lakes.

I usually shut every seacock except the raw water intake from the motor when leaving the boat unattended.
Manuel

SV Pyari - F30 CK, centerboard, wishbones
Built in UK by Fairways Marine. Hull #110

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mike cunningham
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Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by mike cunningham »

Really?

That is silly, at least for a 30. AND dangerous IMO.

On a 30 the cockpit drains are above the water when she is sitting idle at the dock, albeit only slightly. There are extremely robust hoses connected from the cockpit floor to fiberglass flanges glassed to the interior of the hull at the outlets. These flanges bring the effective waterline up another three or four inches. Yes, these should be double clamped and routinely inspected.

When underway the drain outlets will be below the waterline frequently and so will the whole boat if a wave fills the cockpit and you have the seacocks closed because you forgot to open them. Not to mention the drain outlets are very inconvenient to access. You should have your lower companionway board in and secure in any substantial seaway.

I am open to counter argument but this seems like very dangerous guidance. When would you close these seacocks, at the dock? You sure would not want them closed at sea that is certain. What if you are away from the boat and you get a bunch of rain with those seacocks closed. It really makes no sense.

I have had a wave partially fill the cockpit, I can't imagine a situation where a quarter ton of water is sloshing around in the cockpit in a heavy seaway while you try, somehow, to get below to open the seacocks you forgot to open when you left the dock. That could be very uncomfortable.

Seacocks for propane and bilge pump. NOPE! Same access issue and same dangerous issue IMO. Routinely inspect the flanges like you do the cockpit drains. The whole point of the propane drain is to keep leaking propane out of the boat at sea AND at the dock. A seacock on the bilge pump? Ah...no. Both of these outlets are also above the waterline at the dock. If the boat is so heavily loaded they are below the waterline at the dock, get stuff off the boat!!

I am religious (or try to be) about closing sink drain and engine raw water seacocks when off the boat. My head outlet is permanently sealed so no seacock there. I do think this is good practice.

You should be carrying emergency bungs to close any failed through hulls should a hose come loose, seacock/flange failure, etc. That would include the ability to seal the drains in an emergency situation. Get a bung for the rudder post too, same one will fit the cockpit drain outlet. That covers you if the rudder falls out of the boat. I know it sounds goofy but bungs are cheap. You can even make your own. Locate them close to thru hulls so they are at hand when the fertilizer hits the fan. You will not want to be pondering "gee, where did i put those bungs?" when there is a gusher shooting out of a hole in the boat. I don"t know about you but, I freak out when I pull my speed transponder out and I get a gusher for a few seconds while I slap the bung in there. It is just flat out scary looking into the deep blue through a hole in the boat.
Last edited by mike cunningham on Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

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Camino
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Location: Stockton, CA

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by Camino »

Timely. Sailing yesterday I opened my strbd aft lazarett to check - three hoses exit at just barely above waterline when the boat is at rest - propane vent/drain hose, manual bilge hose, electric bilge hose- no seacocks of course. I always close my raw water engine intake valve when I leave, head intake is closed underway unless I use it in which case I open it and close immediately after, sinks are closed. All sea cocks have either a wooden plug or (better) a flexible rubber/foam plug tied to the hose. Plugs are also adjacent to my thru hull water temp, boat speed. The 35P doesn’t have cockpit drains as transom is open.


EDIT — my old Sabre sailboat had Spartan Bronze seacocks on most every thru hull, including the cockpit drains. Those were always left open and had cones attached by lanyard I would do maintenance annually on all of them.

I’ve never seen a seacock on the motor exhaust thru hull- that is certainly a hose and definitely is through the hull
Last edited by Camino on Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom and Stephanie
Good Way II F 35 (P)
1999. Wing Keel 5’
3GM30F, 3-blade maxi prop
Emery Cove, CA

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mike cunningham
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Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by mike cunningham »

Camino wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:37 pm
Timely. Sailing yesterday I opened my strbd aft lazarett to check - three hoses exit at just barely above waterline when the boat is at rest - propane vent/drain hose, manual bilge hose, electric bilge hose- no seacocks of course. I always close my raw water engine intake valve when I leave, head intake is closed underway unless I use it in which case I open it and close immediately after, sinks are closed. All sea cocks have either a wooden plug or (better) a flexible rubber/foam plug tied to the hose. Plugs are also adjacent to my thru hull water temp, boat speed. The 35P doesn’t have cockpit drains as transom is open.
Great minds think alike :D
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

SunnyIsleMark
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:42 am

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by SunnyIsleMark »

Thanks for the responses, and Mike in particular I was hoping you would respond given your offshore experience and preparations. It sounds like the F30 setup is about the same. My first response to the (highly respected) surveyor was the same as yours, specifically "why would you ever close these?" But I did look up the ABYC recommendations and it is not hard to imagine a scenario where shifting gear (spare anchor, tool box, etc) in a locker, while under way, could damage a hose that would be below waterline under sail. I believe that is the intent of ABYC H-27:

H-27.5.1 All piping, tubing, or hose lines penetrating the hull below the maximum heeled waterline, shall be equipped with a seacock to stop the admission of water in the event of failure of pipes, tubing, or hose.

In that rare, but possible scenario it certainly would be easier to close a seacock than remove multiple hose clamps or cut a damaged hose and plug the thru hull with a bung while lying in a locker bouncing around in a seaway.

In my boat the two cockpit drains, manual bilge pump, and propane vent thru hulls are all easily below waterline under sail with crew in the cockpit. They would not be a significant concern unattended at the dock. Of all of them, the propane vent is the most vulnerable by far, (because it is in the center of the cockpit locker) and I will probably relocate that to the transom. I was curious if anyone else had made any modifications to address the ABYC recommendations. Thanks!

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mike cunningham
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Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by mike cunningham »

SunnyIsleMark wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:30 pm
Thanks for the responses, and Mike in particular I was hoping you would respond given your offshore experience and preparations. It sounds like the F30 setup is about the same. My first response to the (highly respected) surveyor was the same as yours, specifically "why would you ever close these?" But I did look up the ABYC recommendations and it is not hard to imagine a scenario where shifting gear (spare anchor, tool box, etc) in a locker, while under way, could damage a hose that would be below waterline under sail. I believe that is the intent of ABYC H-27:

H-27.5.1 All piping, tubing, or hose lines penetrating the hull below the maximum heeled waterline, shall be equipped with a seacock to stop the admission of water in the event of failure of pipes, tubing, or hose.

In that rare, but possible scenario it certainly would be easier to close a seacock than remove multiple hose clamps or cut a damaged hose and plug the thru hull with a bung while lying in a locker bouncing around in a seaway.

In my boat the two cockpit drains, manual bilge pump, and propane vent thru hulls are all easily below waterline under sail with crew in the cockpit. They would not be a significant concern unattended at the dock. Of all of them, the propane vent is the most vulnerable by far, (because it is in the center of the cockpit locker) and I will probably relocate that to the transom. I was curious if anyone else had made any modifications to address the ABYC recommendations. Thanks!
OK, I can understand that line of reasoning.

The seacocks are there for emergency use only. and remain open at all other times. I guess you then have to evaluate the need to maintain the seacocks and the cost to install them (if they do not already exist) vs the robustness of the existing plumbing and an evaluation of how difficult it would be to deal with a hose/clamp failure underway without a corresponding seacock. My personal opinion is that seacocks are going to add unnecessary complexity and someone is inevitably going to use them incorrectly...plus I am broke and couldn't afford to install them even if I thought it was a good idea.

It is funny because I have spent a LOT of time trying to think through emergency scenarios and every time I turn around someone is throwing a new one out there. Drat!

One more note since you brought it up, I try really hard to stow gear to reduce the possibility of something heavy getting loose. A shifting anchor, for example, could easily take a seacock out. I had all this heavy stuff (anchors, drogues, erud, fuel jugs, valise liferaft etc.) tied down with ratchet straps around the boat. I got knocked over pretty hard one time and my only weather laptop flew horizontally (and spectacularly) across the entire width of the cabin, smashing into various pieces upon contact with the port side cabin wall. Fortunately I was able to reassemble the screen bezel and keyboard so all was well but I learned a lesson about securing even the small items. I made a lanyard for the laptop after that incident. But not a single heavy item budged.

You can buy these stainless fold flat D ring tie downs on Amazon pretty cheaply. They are easy to install on the plywood under the cabin cushions and do not damage the cushions when they are laid on top of the folded tie down. When you have something heavy to secure you can remove the cushion and tie stuff down with tensioning straps which eliminate any movement of the gear. The same can be accomplished in the lazarette by epoxying some wood stips against the hull and using these as both a fiddle (for fuel jugs for example) and for your tie down foundation. I have no loose gear down in the laz or the transom. In addition to hoses, There are other vulnerable items down there - quadrant, steering cables and AP linear drive for example.

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel- ... NrPXRydWU=
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

SunnyIsleMark
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:42 am

Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by SunnyIsleMark »

Thanks for your thoughts Mike, and for the D ring ideas. I’m of the same mindset right now regarding changes to the existing cockpit drains and the cost/risk trade off. The odds are good that even if they were installed and left open, they may end up being stuck if they are not used periodically.
So that leads to my other question: how many Freedom owners have actually replaced the drain hoses? They seem to have somewhat unique terminations at both ends…

SunnyIsleMark
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Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by SunnyIsleMark »

These are the cockpit drain hoses I am referring to:
IMG_1004.jpeg
IMG_1004.jpeg (2.35 MiB) Viewed 3591 times
IMG_1005.jpeg
IMG_1005.jpeg (2.68 MiB) Viewed 3591 times

Mark K.
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Re: Thru hulls without seacocks

Post by Mark K. »

On my 1993 F35 (Pedrick design) I had 7 or so above the waterline plastic thru-hulls at the boot stripe level. All were suffering from UV degradation and I replaced them with metal ones. I believe the new ones will last the life of the hull. My concern was that if a weaken plastic thru-hull struck something in the water it might break off and flood the boat. When I replaced them a non-boater friend removed them for me with just one quick hammer blow which demonstrated to me how fragile they had become. Had I read this thread first I may have added thru-hull valves.
I don't have cockpit drains, the transom is open so only-thru hulls below the level of the cockpit floor are of concern. Anything above that level would not matter. If the boat were to flood the sink in the head would back flow first. I plan on adding a one-way check valve on that one to reduce the risk. Possibly others as well.
All of the plastic thru-hulls were only set in with sealant and when removed exposed the balsa core material in the hull. I used a router bit to pare back the balsa and reinforced/filled the gap with thickened epoxy. They are all much stronger now than when the boat left the factory.

Mark K.
S/V Encore

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