Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Maxies
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:25 am

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by Maxies »

Thanks John, good explanation and very helpful.
I still need to understand the camberspar “flop”, and the foot of the jib, but as you say, i’ll trawl thru the posts and gather more intel. Thanks again.
Maxies

User avatar
JohnReinagel
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 1:44 pm
Location: Suburb of Buffalo, N.Y.

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by JohnReinagel »

I'll attempt to clarify the flop. The bow end at the spar is held onto the stay, so relative to port and starboard it is always midships. The stern end of the spar is held up by the luff of the sail and down by the single jib sheet. If you have the jib midships the arc of the spar (which is substantial) is also midships arcing from stern to bow while staying completely on center line. As the spar is moved port or starboard by the sheet and wind the arc also starts to lean to the same side so now as it leans it is placing a curve into the sail shape because of how tight the sail actually is to the spar while in it's recess. This recess is large enough to accommodate quite a bit of the spar laying sideways. The more the spar lays sideways or tilted due to letting the job sheet out, the more curve is placed into the sail shape, not that it ever really goes that far. At some point as you let the sheet out the wind pressure lessens and the sail will go flat again such as wing on wing. But where the sail is intended and designed for use, the slot effect, it adds the correct shape to the sail.

My first year with the boat I considered changing it in favor of a small roller furling set up mostly due to sail management. Now after 3 years I wouldn't consider it because of how well it works for helping slot draft, how simple the sail is to use under any conditions I have been in (30 to 35k at least) and now that I have raising and lower it down to somewhat of a science. In the stronger winds I've run under the camber spar alone still moving 5+ knots at barely 5 deg of heel. You won't break any speed records but man is it comfortable in strong winds.
John


1984 Hoyt F32
Hull #53

User avatar
RadioZephyr
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:04 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by RadioZephyr »

I'll add that I was doing 6's and 7's last November in 30kt winds with just the camberspar jib up. Crazy.
Josh
Sunset Spy
F38, Hull #152
Boston, MA

TonyB
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by TonyB »

Just FYI, I have started down this path of replacing the roller furling with a camber spar set up on my Freedom 40/40. I bought a used camperspar from someone who decided to go from camberspar to roller furling. They both have their advantages and disadvantageous. But just FYI, Paul Dennis at Warren River Boatworks in Rhode Island has a camber spar from a F 40/40 for sale, might be the same size as the 42/45.

Because of the small jib size, and the large mainsail, the jib looses its usefulness pretty quickly off the wind without a spar of some kind. With the roller furler set up, I find my jib often fluttering around uselessly. The narrow traveler of the self tacking setup doesn't help. Sometimes I can lead the sheet to the rail to help. Or downwind I can pole it out or fly the spinnaker.

The camber spar is a good design to hold the sail out as well as "automatically'" adding shape to the sail as it is eased. Other options would be a Hoyt Boom. But that requires a lot of deck work to re-enforce. And it doesn't' add any shape to the sail. I have wondered about a stiff batten in place of a camberspar. But that would probably require manually "popping" it to the other side when tacking, in anything but a stiff breeze.

The downsides to the camberspar as I can see (I haven't used one yet) is that they take up deck space. They add weight (although so does a rollerfurl and foil). And they make it difficult to change sails. Also you probably need a sail maker who is familiar with them when getting a new sail made.
Tony
SV Circe 1997 Freedom 40/40 - Hull #20 - Brickyard Cove Marina, Richmond, CA

jlodolce
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:30 pm
Location: Sackets Harbor, NY (Lake Ontario)

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by jlodolce »

Tony,

I have had 40/40 #16 (1995) for 13 seasons on Lake Ontario with the original camberspar rigging. I have no experience with a furling jib on the 40/40. I do love the way it sails. Do you mean that you are having a problem sailing off the wind with your current roller furling jib, or that you think you might have a problem sailing off the wind with a camberspar rig? The camberspar has been a real asset for me, as well as the fact that the small jib is battened. She sails well from 40 degrees to 180 degrees. I can also sail pretty well with jib only, with the main on the boom. I am surprised at the speed I get with small sail.

I agree that the fact that the camberspar is always there can be a nuisance, but I just step over or under it (I never leave it on the deck). I do have 3 other issues with the camberspar rig.

1) The biggest problem is that you have to go up on the bow to take the jib down. Once you release the jib halyard, the sail does not automatically flop down like the main does. You have to release the halyard, tighten the sheet as tight as you can to put the camberspar curve upright (if you don't, the camberspar will bang against the mast), then go up on the foredeck and manually pull the jib down and tie it to the camberspar.

2) The original foredeck/steaming light was relatively small. A couple of years ago, it had to be replaced. I installed a standard LED foredeck/steaming light over the winter. The next season, I realized that since the new foredeck light was a bit larger than the old one, the halyard that attaches to the aft end of the camberspar to keep the camberspar off the deck would catch on the light when I came about. I therefore had to go up on deck to free it from the light so it would not pull the light off the mast. I resolved this by unhooking the camberspar halyard before raising the jib, and reattaching it before fully lowering it. It is a pain in the butt, but works well

3) learning how to install the jib onto the camberspar in the spring is an art that took me a few years to figure out. The first few times, I spent hours doing this or that, flinging a few nasty sailor terms at the setup, until I figured it out. It is very difficult to attach the mast (aft) end of the camberspar to the sail and then attach the fore end roller onto the forestay. I finally figured out that once you have the camberspar attached to the mast end of the jib, you have to raise the sail before you can do what you have to do on the fore end. I have read about others with this problem, who actually talked about cutting the camberspar to make it shorter, which I would not recommend.

As far as sailmakers go, I believe Haarstick made all the original sails for the 40/40. I know they made mine, and we are only 4 boats apart in the series. They are now Quantum Sails, and definitely know a lot about Freedom sails.
Jim Lo Dolce
Lo Dolce Vita VII
Freedom 40/40 #16 1995
Sackets Harbor, NY (Lake Ontario)

TonyB
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by TonyB »

Thanks for the reply Jim. Great info. Yes the roller fueled jib, once you are off the wind a ways, just doesn’t do much. It is hard to give it any kind of shape. If I am reaching for a ways, I will sheet it over to the rail which helps. But at a certain wind angle it pretty much becomes useless without a pole. Looking forward to a cmberspar set up to solve that.
Tony
SV Circe 1997 Freedom 40/40 - Hull #20 - Brickyard Cove Marina, Richmond, CA

archerc
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:16 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by archerc »

Hi Tony,

My Freedom 45 CC has also been modified from the camberspar to a roller furler. I still have the original camberspar and self-tending jib to go with it if you or anyone else wants to go back to the original sail plan.

-Chris

TonyB
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:33 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by TonyB »

Hey Chris,
I would definitely be interested in the sail. I have already obtained a spar. If you want to discuss feel free to DM me and we can talk.

Thx.
Tony
SV Circe 1997 Freedom 40/40 - Hull #20 - Brickyard Cove Marina, Richmond, CA

LanceRyley
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:43 am

Re: Restoring modified Freedom 45 CC to self-tending jib?

Post by LanceRyley »

Just FYI if you are planning to re-use someone else's camberspar. Many of the Freedom 45's were modified to put the headstay out on the end of the bow pulpit, increasing the J measurement and requiring a new camberspar, so depending on your setup the spar off another boat may not work.

Regarding attaching the jib. I always start at the headstay. the trick as others have pointed out is to then partially raise the sail (I put the halyard around the top set of hanks and lift it as a bundle) AND to then rotate the camberspar in its pocket so that it is at least partially upright. Then you can lever the leech end onto the horns with a screwdriver pretty easily. if the camberspar is sagging in its untensioned position this becomes nearly impossible.

Lastly, I had a conversation recently with Jack Slattery from North Sails and he said that they have built camberspars for customers in the past and still have the ability to do so.
S/V Glory, 1992 Freedom 45 CC TM WK

Post Reply