Erik,
Thanks for all the great information.
If possible, I would like to come and see the boat rigs and any photos you have.
Let me know where and when please.
I am going with aluminum masts-$$$$ less
No decision on booms
Wrap around sails look good to me, so far.
Nonsuch mast research:
I did look at the Freedom 40 with Nonsuch masts. I don't know which Nonsuch model they came from.
Nonsuch rigs are as hard to find as replacements for Freedom masts.
I did go to Brewers Marine in Essex CT this winter and the manager allowed me to measure the Nonsuch masts that were removed for winter storage. The mast he said that would fit my 40 was from the Nonsuch 30. One of the mast measured 49' long, had a 9" base circumfrence and tapered to 4" at the top-two sections-sleeved. The second mast was a 57' long, a circumfrence of 10" at the base tapered to 4 " at the top-two sections-sleeved. Both extrusions are 1/4" thick. Both bases were closed with castings.
The Nonsuch aluminum booms have cast aluminum fittings on both ends. I believe these castings to be unique to the Nonsuch boom.
After examining the Nonsuch rigs and their workings, I have decided to pursue the original Freedom design.
Original design: Gary Hoyt wrote, the base section was indeed a 10" straight extrusion and the top section was tapered.
Measured aluminum rig: I measured a Freedom 40 with a set of standing aluminum masts and found them to be close in length. The mizzen mast step was 20" below the main mast step. Both masts roughly measured 49' from base to mast head.
I photographed a Freedom 40 rigged with carbon fiber masts and normal booms. By scaling-highly inaccurate-in the photos it appears that the main mast sets approximatly two feet taller than the mizzen mast.
I have found a source for anodized aluminum poles 50' in length, sleeved, 1/4" thick, 10" base diameter tapering to 4" on top.
A fully tapered extrusion, from base to top, is used on the Nonsuch and should work on the Freedom.
It would be nice if there was a standard rig design-each seems to be different, but then where would the fun be if this was easy?
I am begining to understand the rig and the simplicity of opperation. Thanks to the folks on the Forum.
I do have some drawings for the boat-hull, deck, sections of the side and bow to stern, and a boat rigged. I don't know how accurate they are.They were in the boat when I took delievery. They are large and if anyone migh need a copy let me know.
Thanks again,
Steve Kring
Kringco@verizon.net
Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Steve,
If you have to completely re-rig I would consider all possible improvements to the original wrap around Freedom rig. Search this board, there are several discussions here about the combination of wishbones and single ply sails on (or without) tracks, which is what I feel is the optimum for both handling simplicity, performance and costs.
Also mind you that wrap around sails involve twice the sailmaker's labour hours in making the sails and therefore will increase the costs of the sails over single ply sails. Furthermore, with wraparounds it's more difficult to have more roach in the sail or have squarehead sails so with wraparounds your sail area will always be close to the original sailplan's area, unless you use taller masts, in which case you would want to rework the stability calculations and need to consider adding ballast.
If rerigging, it's a good idea to re-calculate the optimum sailplan's CoE anyway. I feel that having the CoE more forward would be an improvement on the F40. The F40 had two identical sails for simplicity but there must be reasons why the sailplans of the F44 and F33 have a different relation of the areas of the two sails. The F33 has 66% of total area in the main and 33% in the mizzen, the F44 has 55% of the total area in the main and 45% in the mizzen.
The F40, being heavy on the rudder as it is, in my opinion would benefit from having a larger main sail. If you keep the mizzen about the same size, that would increase your total sailarea which is good to speed up the somewhat sluggish F40. Look at the F44 too, this boat evolved from the F40 after the experience gained with the F40, with changes in the aft part of the hull and a larger sail plan.
I.M.H.O. the Wyliecat rig is the most advanced wishbone rig there is at this time and I would have a good look at this rig and see what I could learn from it. And perhaps you can keep your costs down by buying standard Wylie components.
One last remark: be careful in using sketches, plans and drawings of Freedoms. I found these to be inaccurate in their dimensions. These documents were mostly made for marketing purposes and have probably been scaled and distorted to fit brochure pages. Don't trust them.
Best,
Michel
If you have to completely re-rig I would consider all possible improvements to the original wrap around Freedom rig. Search this board, there are several discussions here about the combination of wishbones and single ply sails on (or without) tracks, which is what I feel is the optimum for both handling simplicity, performance and costs.
Also mind you that wrap around sails involve twice the sailmaker's labour hours in making the sails and therefore will increase the costs of the sails over single ply sails. Furthermore, with wraparounds it's more difficult to have more roach in the sail or have squarehead sails so with wraparounds your sail area will always be close to the original sailplan's area, unless you use taller masts, in which case you would want to rework the stability calculations and need to consider adding ballast.
If rerigging, it's a good idea to re-calculate the optimum sailplan's CoE anyway. I feel that having the CoE more forward would be an improvement on the F40. The F40 had two identical sails for simplicity but there must be reasons why the sailplans of the F44 and F33 have a different relation of the areas of the two sails. The F33 has 66% of total area in the main and 33% in the mizzen, the F44 has 55% of the total area in the main and 45% in the mizzen.
The F40, being heavy on the rudder as it is, in my opinion would benefit from having a larger main sail. If you keep the mizzen about the same size, that would increase your total sailarea which is good to speed up the somewhat sluggish F40. Look at the F44 too, this boat evolved from the F40 after the experience gained with the F40, with changes in the aft part of the hull and a larger sail plan.
I.M.H.O. the Wyliecat rig is the most advanced wishbone rig there is at this time and I would have a good look at this rig and see what I could learn from it. And perhaps you can keep your costs down by buying standard Wylie components.
One last remark: be careful in using sketches, plans and drawings of Freedoms. I found these to be inaccurate in their dimensions. These documents were mostly made for marketing purposes and have probably been scaled and distorted to fit brochure pages. Don't trust them.
Best,
Michel
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Steve;
I think you should contact Halsey Herreschoff about the mast specs. The boat that Eric posted about doesn't have the same mast height relationship as mine. When I have had mine out the mizzen is at least 3' maybe even 4 or 5' longer than the main. When stepped the main is less than a foot taller than the mizzen. There may be a difference between the center cockpit and my aft cockpit model that I don't know about. Not all of the boats were built by Tillotson Pearson, only the US made ones, there may be differences there as well. Eric's description of the masthead seems quite correct. I am planning on being at Brewer Wickford the week of May 7th if you want to take a better look at Running Free. I also have on board most of the original owners manual which has many measurements in it. I'm not sure if the mast dimensions are there or not.
It was my understanding that Mr. Herreschoff did all the numbers work while Mr. Hoyt had the creative ideas. I also believe he is still practising and can be reached at the Herreschoff museum in Bristol RI.
Carl Berdie
I think you should contact Halsey Herreschoff about the mast specs. The boat that Eric posted about doesn't have the same mast height relationship as mine. When I have had mine out the mizzen is at least 3' maybe even 4 or 5' longer than the main. When stepped the main is less than a foot taller than the mizzen. There may be a difference between the center cockpit and my aft cockpit model that I don't know about. Not all of the boats were built by Tillotson Pearson, only the US made ones, there may be differences there as well. Eric's description of the masthead seems quite correct. I am planning on being at Brewer Wickford the week of May 7th if you want to take a better look at Running Free. I also have on board most of the original owners manual which has many measurements in it. I'm not sure if the mast dimensions are there or not.
It was my understanding that Mr. Herreschoff did all the numbers work while Mr. Hoyt had the creative ideas. I also believe he is still practising and can be reached at the Herreschoff museum in Bristol RI.
Carl Berdie
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Steve - research is always good!!! I can't wait to get my boat to the West Coast (May?), do some bottom work, lauch, figure out the rigging/sails and sail the darn thing. I will def. keep you abreast of the developments and you can swing up anytime you like.
Some thoughts - I seem to recall a write-up that recommended sailing and reefing the F40 such that both masts have similar sail area - I am assuming the mast are more lightly loaded and the boat handles better if you have the sail plan split rather than dropping the mizzen and sailing with the main only when it gets windy. But for safety reasons when designing the rig, you would want a single mast to be rated for all of the load- i.e. when determining loadings on the mast, assume it is the only one on the F40. Given the displacement of a Nonsuch 30, that may mean those masts are too light. It would take some math, but I seem to recall the calculation has the power of 4 involved, so a small change in diameter (1") can make a large change in strength and stiffness.
I am with Michael: The WylieCats have it going on
They use the an externally mounted sail track https://www.tidesmarine.com/?page_id=61 that makes raising and lowering extremely easy (expensive though so if you figure out how to machine one, I'm very interested). Full batten sails with some boats even doing square top mains that seem to be better on a reach than the round roached mains. Also, the rigs/sails are designed to be very adjustable as to shape and can be full or flat as needed. The mast flexes and flattens the main, plus spills the wind out of the sail such that you can carry the same sail up to 25 knots without reefing, and when racing, even to higher wind speeds (they do not reef in SF Bay, even is the summer, and sail just fine when it gets light). You need strong, stiff booms for that and I don't think the teak booms are up to it. The WC booms are either Al or CF and wider than the Nonsuch, and do not interfere with the sail. Booms are on fixed stays, with lines going between each wishbone, under the foot of the sail to catch it when dousing - to drop you simply luff up and let the halyard go and stand back. Main sheets are 2x1 - even at that, it is quite a long sheet because the booms are so long. Gybing is accomplished by simply sailing by the lee until the main comes over - at that point you are close to reaching on the other board such that the main will luff and backwind as it comes across the center line. Very undramatic unless the sheet hooks on something...
In interest of openness I need to admit that I am considering a chambered junk rig as a replacement sail plan for my boat though. These thoughts are not at all fully fleshed out and in part depend on the cost to convert my rig to something similar to a Wyliecat.
Erik
Erik
Some thoughts - I seem to recall a write-up that recommended sailing and reefing the F40 such that both masts have similar sail area - I am assuming the mast are more lightly loaded and the boat handles better if you have the sail plan split rather than dropping the mizzen and sailing with the main only when it gets windy. But for safety reasons when designing the rig, you would want a single mast to be rated for all of the load- i.e. when determining loadings on the mast, assume it is the only one on the F40. Given the displacement of a Nonsuch 30, that may mean those masts are too light. It would take some math, but I seem to recall the calculation has the power of 4 involved, so a small change in diameter (1") can make a large change in strength and stiffness.
I am with Michael: The WylieCats have it going on
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
In interest of openness I need to admit that I am considering a chambered junk rig as a replacement sail plan for my boat though. These thoughts are not at all fully fleshed out and in part depend on the cost to convert my rig to something similar to a Wyliecat.
Erik
Erik
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Steve, Michel
Michel makes good points. The labor isn't double for the wrap, but I'm sure it's more. There is less detail work and lighter cloth for the wrap. The roach can be increased with bigger battens, but not a whole lot. Steve Thurston made my main larger than the mizzen by a slightly longer foot and luff. I got an additional 10 to 15 sq feet. The increase in performance was tremendous, but the old sail by comparison was totally shot. Hard to attribute the better speed. The ease of repair and lack of expensive stuff to go wrong is what sold me on the wrap method.
Carl Berdie
Michel makes good points. The labor isn't double for the wrap, but I'm sure it's more. There is less detail work and lighter cloth for the wrap. The roach can be increased with bigger battens, but not a whole lot. Steve Thurston made my main larger than the mizzen by a slightly longer foot and luff. I got an additional 10 to 15 sq feet. The increase in performance was tremendous, but the old sail by comparison was totally shot. Hard to attribute the better speed. The ease of repair and lack of expensive stuff to go wrong is what sold me on the wrap method.
Carl Berdie
- THATBOATGUY
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Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
A former Freedom employee detailed the aluminum mast construction to me. The bottom section is aluminum pipe. The transition section was purpose fabricated. The top section was a tapered aluminum flag pole. He told me the sections were first assembled as a friction fit using a forklift to jam them together then mechanically fastened. This was told to me on a dock in the BVI and it was not until I was home again and looking closely at the masts that I could tell the tale was true!
Our boat (hull 7) began life with wishbone booms and wrap around sails. A subsequent owner added isomat (conventional) booms with jiffy reefing Also strong track with cars and full battened sails. I added lazy jacks and stackpacks which for the lazy cruiser I believe is the ultimate solutions.
We were rigged with running backs when we purchased the boat but we had no staysails so we removed them.
George
Our boat (hull 7) began life with wishbone booms and wrap around sails. A subsequent owner added isomat (conventional) booms with jiffy reefing Also strong track with cars and full battened sails. I added lazy jacks and stackpacks which for the lazy cruiser I believe is the ultimate solutions.
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
We were rigged with running backs when we purchased the boat but we had no staysails so we removed them.
George
George and Kerri Huffman S/V Marquesa Freedom 40 CC CK Sail Marquesa![Image](http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6217/animatedhulagirlwk4.gif)
![Image](http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6217/animatedhulagirlwk4.gif)
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Carl Berdie,
I would like to come see you boat if the offer is still open. Let me know day/day options so I can schedule the trip!
Steve Kring
I would like to come see you boat if the offer is still open. Let me know day/day options so I can schedule the trip!
Steve Kring
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Steve Kring;
I am leaving tomorrow morning, should be out there by Monday. I hope to get the prop off and to a shop on Monday, Tuesday I should be there almost all day. The boats at Wickford Brewer and I can be reached at 612-825-4741. Until the prop is in the shop, I won't know for sure my schedule. Feel free to call, I should have a good idea on Monday afternoon.
Carl Berdie
I am leaving tomorrow morning, should be out there by Monday. I hope to get the prop off and to a shop on Monday, Tuesday I should be there almost all day. The boats at Wickford Brewer and I can be reached at 612-825-4741. Until the prop is in the shop, I won't know for sure my schedule. Feel free to call, I should have a good idea on Monday afternoon.
Carl Berdie
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Hey Steve - I just realized you are in FL - for some reason I thought you were in San Diego... In any case, my boat is suppose to arrive at the Berkeley Marine Center in Berkeley, CA by Wednesday of next week. The mast don't go in until the boat is in the water and I expect to be on the hard for two weeks at least. You are welcome to come by or ask for any specific pictures or measurements off the rig.
Erik
Erik
Re: Freedom 40 Aluminum Masts
Carl Berdie
The sail cost of the two ply wrap around sail was not too bad when compared to the heavier single ply sail. Then adding the track and the associated hardware I would need, the two ply wrap is more cost effective.
I measured the mast steps from the water line on my boat to establish the difference in the elevation of the two. The main mast step is approximatly 34" higher than the mizzen step. Adding this information to the approximat length, 49', of the masts I measured on another boat I came up with the total height of approximatly 52' above the water line. This number appears to coincide with other information I have read and matches the most detail drawings I have.
I am trying to get there Tuesday this week and will call-thanks.
Thanks Steve Kring
Erik
I agree the Nonsuch 30 mast would most probably too light. I read an article by Gary Hoyt on how to sail the Freedom 40 in which he said (condensed) to sail with both sails equal, full or reefed. The boat was not designed to sail with only one sail.
I will not make it to CA but will ask to have a few measurements and pictures taken if I may? I may have my son drop by-He lives in CA and works at the San Diego Zoo, maybe not too far. I will find out.
Thanks again,
Steve Kring
Michel
I agree that there have been big improvements over the last 40 years. I have to figure the value of the improvements- spicifically-ease of use, performance, durability, and cost.
I will primarily single handling the boat.
I have contacted Wylie C and the rig looks great. I am gathering information to send to them for an estimate of cost.
Good point on the drawings-if I mix all of the drawings that I posess together, I get a most unusual looking craft which does not"close"
Thanks again!
Steve Kring
The sail cost of the two ply wrap around sail was not too bad when compared to the heavier single ply sail. Then adding the track and the associated hardware I would need, the two ply wrap is more cost effective.
I measured the mast steps from the water line on my boat to establish the difference in the elevation of the two. The main mast step is approximatly 34" higher than the mizzen step. Adding this information to the approximat length, 49', of the masts I measured on another boat I came up with the total height of approximatly 52' above the water line. This number appears to coincide with other information I have read and matches the most detail drawings I have.
I am trying to get there Tuesday this week and will call-thanks.
Thanks Steve Kring
Erik
I agree the Nonsuch 30 mast would most probably too light. I read an article by Gary Hoyt on how to sail the Freedom 40 in which he said (condensed) to sail with both sails equal, full or reefed. The boat was not designed to sail with only one sail.
I will not make it to CA but will ask to have a few measurements and pictures taken if I may? I may have my son drop by-He lives in CA and works at the San Diego Zoo, maybe not too far. I will find out.
Thanks again,
Steve Kring
Michel
I agree that there have been big improvements over the last 40 years. I have to figure the value of the improvements- spicifically-ease of use, performance, durability, and cost.
I will primarily single handling the boat.
I have contacted Wylie C and the rig looks great. I am gathering information to send to them for an estimate of cost.
Good point on the drawings-if I mix all of the drawings that I posess together, I get a most unusual looking craft which does not"close"
Thanks again!
Steve Kring