OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

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mike cunningham
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by mike cunningham »

Sorry about this obsession with the camberspar, but here is another request for one of my Freedom 30 owning colleagues.

If you have an original Camberspar, I would be really interested in the "chord" of the spar on your boat. I would like to confirm the rebending of my spar was done correctly. This is simply a measurement of max draft of the CS when measured from a straight line connecting the base of the tacking arm to the base of the front end fitting.

Mine is 16.5 inches. I spoke to Paul D. about this the other day and he believes the CS chord should be around 9 inches??!! That is a big difference. My CS was rebent to shape by one of the top sailmakers in the SF Bay area at the time (2016). I have some faith in this shop, now closed, but would really like to square this with Paul's feedback.

BTW, Paul mentioned he had to fab a camberspar for someone who had broken their spar not too long ago. He billed $2500.00 and he said he lost money on the deal...Yikes!
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

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rvivian
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Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:08 pm

Re: OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by rvivian »

Hi Mike -

My boat is up in Blaine and I won't get there until sometime next week. I'll measure for you then.

I n the meantime maybe this post will help:

https://freedomyachts.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8583

It seems to indicate 13% of the length for the sail pocket.
Heart's Desire
Freedom 30
Shelton, WA

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RadioZephyr
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:04 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by RadioZephyr »

Hey Mike,

A few things:

1. Paul tells me that according to Dave Bierig, Freedom used tubing that was a size smaller than what he had spec'd. He's not sure why. The camberspar that came with my first Freedom had a quite severe curve in it, and I think that that has to do with the lighter duty tube bending over years of compression. I think a lot of owners' spars have probably suffered a similar fate, albeit gradually enough that they never noticed.

2. A few years ago, I decided to get a new tube made with the heavier aluminum and reuse my existing end fittings. There was a marine fabrication shop in Bristol that had a bending table, and Paul let me borrow the pattern he made (which is based on the patent drawings). They had the heavier tubing in stock, and were able to bend me up a fresh camberspar in a day. I believe the cost was $150. The finish is polished, not painted, but otherwise it's indistinguishable. A clue for finding a similar outfit in your area: their primary business was building custom towers for sport fishing boats out of aluminum tubing.

3. The camberspar that Paul had fabricated was a stainless steel aft end fitting, not the whole thing. I saw it in his shop a few months back, and it's quite lovely. That price makes sense to me, given the work that it must have taken to make. Also, it is the much larger version, for the F45.

4. This place apparently took over the camberspar business for Dave Bierig: http://mobile.coletech.net/camberspar.shtml. They would probably be a good place to ask.

Good luck!

-Josh
Josh
Sunset Spy
F38, Hull #152
Boston, MA

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mike cunningham
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by mike cunningham »

Thank you guys very much for the excellent information. I had not seen the article Geoff had posted, that is really helpful. I have see bits of this write up but not the whole story.

How the heck much is there to learn about this darn rig. Jeeze, it seems like I am working on a Phd or something.

Couple of recent findings on my part

I have the spar off the boat and in my garage to clean it up, lubricate bits and just try to manually put it through its tacking cycle to better understand what happens when I tack the boat. That exercise has been useful.

The PO (I bot Jacqueline 23 years ago hahaha) had placed a bolt and nylock through one of the holes which allow adjustment of the tacking arm extension tube. I never questioned it. Yesterday I swapped it out for a "fast pin" per the orig. design . The bolt had deformed the tube due to over tightening (PO) but i got that sorted and now the tube slides nicely and can be easily adjusted to appropriate pocket tension. Wow! it only took me 23 years!

I was finally fitting my new sail which was built a couple years ago. My old sail requires that I put a bolt through the tack and it is gnarly to do this because so much heavy material, washers, the clip inside the pocket and over the forestay...yee gads. The new sail implemented something mentioned in the article, It includes two tabs which extend about an inch from the sail at the fwd end of the spar pocket. This allows me to see everything as I attach the clip. I do not have to try to see inside the front of the pocket to see what is happening with the bolt as it is threaded through one side of the sail, the sheave. the other side of the sail and misc washers, etc. Much much more convenient. I am now going to see if I can find a clevis pin (like a fast pin) which can be securely locked in place yet can be released easily. This would allow a fairly rapid removal of the sail from the forestay. I will secure the sheet block with a soft shackle which will allow rapid removal of the sheet and the sail/spar is off in two or three minutes with no loss of security. The dreaded clip is still in the mix though.

However, the rig can be equipped with tines extending about 1/2 inch from the sheave. This allows me to get rid of the clip altogether and simply use another locking pin to secure the CS to the forestay which would reduce removal and attach time and simplicity to that of a regular jib. It would require me to have the tines extended a bit but I need to replace the sheave anyway so the tines need to come off regardless (my sheave is welded on its center pin).

Whew, making some progress. Next step is to re-rig and evaluate/measure things before having tines extended. I am headed to the yard in a couple weeks so that will co-locate me with a SS fab shop.
Last edited by mike cunningham on Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

User avatar
mike cunningham
Posts: 489
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am
Location: Jacqueline, F30 #3, Discovery Bay, California

Re: OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by mike cunningham »

RadioZephyr wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:09 pm
Hey Mike,

A few things:

1. Paul tells me that according to Dave Bierig, Freedom used tubing that was a size smaller than what he had spec'd. He's not sure why. The camberspar that came with my first Freedom had a quite severe curve in it, and I think that that has to do with the lighter duty tube bending over years of compression. I think a lot of owners' spars have probably suffered a similar fate, albeit gradually enough that they never noticed.

2. A few years ago, I decided to get a new tube made with the heavier aluminum and reuse my existing end fittings. There was a marine fabrication shop in Bristol that had a bending table, and Paul let me borrow the pattern he made (which is based on the patent drawings). They had the heavier tubing in stock, and were able to bend me up a fresh camberspar in a day. I believe the cost was $150. The finish is polished, not painted, but otherwise it's indistinguishable. A clue for finding a similar outfit in your area: their primary business was building custom towers for sport fishing boats out of aluminum tubing.

3. The camberspar that Paul had fabricated was a stainless steel aft end fitting, not the whole thing. I saw it in his shop a few months back, and it's quite lovely. That price makes sense to me, given the work that it must have taken to make. Also, it is the much larger version, for the F45.

4. This place apparently took over the camberspar business for Dave Bierig: http://mobile.coletech.net/camberspar.shtml. They would probably be a good place to ask.

Good luck!

-Josh
Josh, re the bend. I suppose it is possible the CS bend has increased due to loading under sail. That is what happened to me in rather spectacular fashion about 350 NM offshore in 45Kts. I was too chicken to go forward in heavy seas. The sail hard jibed a few times and just blew up with the CS bending dramatically and the tacking arm ripped off the CS. Having said this, I attempted to fix the spar in Hawaii so it could be used for the trip back to the mainland. I locked one end into a massive cleat in a concrete dock and after several hours was able to get about half the bend out. Point is it took a huge amount of force to get even part of the bend out. I weighed about 190 lbs at the time and with my entire body weight bouncing on the end of the spar I could only manage a partial rebend. I gave up and the storm jib was used for the return trip as it was for the last 350NM of the race. I would be really surprised if our normal sailing activities would be able to impart this kind of force. But I am absolutely prepared to be wrong. The jib exerts a surprising amount of force on the spar. jibes or tacks in heavier weather could probably do the trick, they did do the trick in my case.

This emphasizes our need to understand what the design spec is for the amount and location of the max chord (draft). Rvivian noted 13% of sail pocket length implied by article. example would be 9 foot sail pocket = 14 inch chord. The missing piece is where should max chord be? Back to the patent drawing to try to estimate that.

It is good to hear you were able to economically fab a replacement.
Mike Cunningham
Freedom 30 (Mull) Hull #3
Build date...June, 1986 . Freedom Yachts USA, sloop, shoal keel
Gun Mount and pole retrofitted (purchased from a Hoyt Freedom 32)
Yanmar 2gm20F , 1600 hrs fixed two blade prop
e-rud and ocean racing equipment

F32Circle
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:14 am

Re: OMG he is talking about the camberspar again and needs help

Post by F32Circle »

For what it’s worth. The chord for the camberspar on my Hoyt F32, crudely measured, appears to be 14 inches, when the baseline is the axle of the sheave to the center of the tubing at the aft end of the spar.
I think Circle has had a pretty docile sailing history so I’m doubtful the camberspar has been stressed enough to have bent.
F32 Hull #67, Saybook CT.
Yanmar 3GMF, Loose-footed Main, MaxProp, Ronca, Muir windlass,
Heart Interface inverter/charger, SeaFrost

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