errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

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THATBOATGUY
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errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by THATBOATGUY »

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George
George and Kerri Huffman S/V Marquesa Freedom 40 CC CK Sail MarquesaImage

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Alain
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by Alain »

THATBOATGUY wrote:Image
George
A pale (and heavier) copy of the original "Frog Kiss", equiped with a discrete bowsprit and jib...
Alain (at time I envy the ketch)
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Alain
Naïade, F39PH '83, Montréal

katorpus
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by katorpus »

George -

I assume (always dangerous) that your topic title here was in response to my statement (on the Mizzen Staysail Dimension thread) that my "spare halyard is on the front side of the mast".

It IS on the forward side of the mast...on the headplate at the masthead...not fractionally installed.

My comment about not getting full raise on the sail (if using the spare as a main or mizzen halyard) relates to the last few inches which the headboard would normally travel ...right up to the turning block in the masthead. Most of the effect of this could be offset by moving the first reef hook down to the "cunningham hole" in the sail and tensioning the sail downward, but sail shape (particularly at the foot of the sail) WOULD be affected, and there's a serious potential chafe issue going on there at the masthead, nevermind that all the halyard tension on the headboard is pulling FORWARD (rather than up) when the sail is raised to its maximum height. This last thing would induce some twist in the headboard, further affecting sail shape at the head of the sail.

I see these "spares" as "emergency use only" insofar as the main & mizzen are concerned. Obviously, they are suitably located for staysail, spinnaker or whatever, but I still question the wisdom of flying something besides the main off of the main mast without having some kind of running backstay.

I kept an asymmetrical spinnaker when I sold a 30' S-2, and I've flown it once or twice from the main mast, but the tack was pretty high (due to the shorter mast on the S-2) and I wasn't real happy with how it looked up there...I think I'll give it a try before long on the mizzen mast.

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THATBOATGUY
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by THATBOATGUY »

Oh no John,

I wasn't directly reffering to your boat. I have a "spare" halyard on each mast that's in the proper position to be used as a halyard or topping lift. I use them as topping lifts. I also have pulleys at the front of each mast. The one on the mizzen has a halyard on it and clearly this boat had a mizzen staysail fo some sort at some time because it's rigged with the running backs. As for the pulley at the front of the main mast... I think I'll either leave it up with a messenger line on it or take it down completely as you suggested. I just don't have the time or energy at this point to deal another major change to the boat. I *think* that one would be ok flying a headsail on our rig so long as the main was set first. Kind of like you do on many Catamaran where you reduce sail from the headsail back.

George
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katorpus
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by katorpus »

I use my main & mizzen halyards as a "topping lift" after dropping the sails into the lazy jacks.

Tensioning these after the sails are furled and allows the lazy jacks to hold the weight of the sail & boom while the sails are being dropped without the sail sliding between the boom & the (slack) lazy jack.

The weight of the sail & boom is then (mostly) carried (while docked or at anchor) by the larger diameter halyard and the gooseneck, rather than the lighter lazy jack lines themselves.

I suppose that this also helps eliminate the "resonance" thing discussed on the other thread, as the top of the mast is "tied" to the end of the boom. We have seasonal straight line winds of 50-70 mph with some regularity in Corpus Christi (associated with the arrival of a storm front). They may last 20 minutes, or they may last 2 hours.

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markedwards
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by markedwards »

All of the cat ketch/cat schooner rigged Freedoms were designed to fly three different staysails from the masthead of the mizzen/aft mast. Offered with sail plans of the day were a close reaching staysail blade sail of light dacron, and two broad reaching staysails, more like spinnakers, for off wind. Imagine the hole in the sail plan when wing on wing and the size of the staysail one might fly to completely fill this area. The tack of the blade close reaching sail was meant to attach to a heavy duty padeye that should be found as standard hardware about 1/3 aft of the forward mast.

For the broad reaching staysails in nylon, the tacks varied but I found the best point to the forward bow cleat on the side opposite the main sail when wing on wing. The standard equipment running backstays had 4:1 block and tackle so one could provide some support to the mast on the weather side. The runners are positioned directly outboard of the mizzen/aft mast when not sailing with a staysail but were meant to be brought aft to the ends of the toe rails prior to hoisting the staysail and tensioned slightly.

On all of these boats a masthead block and "spare" halyard was provided for the main/forward mast as well as the mizzen but no sail was designed or intended to fly from this point. This was provided just as a spare in case the primary halyard was lost or if someone had to go aloft for some purpose.

Mark Edwards

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Michel
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by Michel »

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your explanation on how to rig the staysails. Do you think there's anybody that still has the seam measurements for the three different staysails for the F44? Or at least the designed area for each sail, so I can figure out the dimensions myself?

Thanks,
Michel
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

Tom V
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Staysail Sizes for Freedom 44

Post by Tom V »

Regarding questions about staysail sizes...

A while back, Steve Haarstick suggested these dimensions to me for a full staysail repertoire
(measurements in feet & inches not metric!) based on what he had made for Freedom 44s in the past:


1. Large Cross Cut Staysail (Luff: 47.5'; LP 27.3'; Area : 649 square feet
2. Blade Cross Cut Staysail (Luff: 457'; LP 12.75'; Area: 282 square feet
3 Assymetrical Triradial Spinnaker: Area: 1,145 square feet

The only one is a blade staysail.. but would like to get more.
A friend out sailing with me the other day suggested I get a harken staysail furler, so I could quickly roll the staysail up when I need to tack or gybe.... still have to ower it to the deck and disconnect it, I think, but it wouldn't be blowing all over the place and much quicker to re-set on the new course.

Tom Vesey
Freedom 44 Jackrabbit

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markedwards
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Re: errrr. hmmmm. pulley on front of mast?

Post by markedwards »

Haarstick in Rochester (716-342-5200 would have that information as would Steve Thurston from the Thurston Quantum loft in Bristol (401-254-0970). Steve was among the very first sail makers building sails for Freedoms and did many of the cat ketch rigged boats. I might have that information at home as well and will look for it. Mark Edwards

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Michel
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Re: staysails

Post by Michel »

Tom, Mark,

Many thanks already for your info.

Tom, on my F33/35 I had a full suit of three staysails. I had a sniffer on the mizzen gennaker and harken rollers on the medium and the blade staysail. as you say, when tacking or gybing you need to roll in the sail and lower it just a bit, enough to hank off the sail at the deck. I just left it hanging alongside the mizzen until after the tack or gybe to set it again quickly.

Tom, one more thing: what is does the measurement PL mean? Thanks.

For a mizzen gennaker on the F44 I bought a ready made (size 7) Momentum Sails ASpin AR (Allround) with a luff length not too long, to halfway between the main and mizzen mast and an area of 900 sqft. A size 8 would fit as well. I choose a relatively small sail to be able to stretch the luff straight from mid deck between main and mizzen and use it on beam reaches (with main and mizzen both on the leeward side) as well. That is basically a course for the intermediate size staysail, but because of the sheer size of the sails when stowen below decks, I opted for only one full cut staysail. But I would like to add a flat cut blade staysail to the wardrobe.
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2533014805_43997d7b3f.jpg (74.3 KiB) Viewed 9435 times
And I need to have third reefs made; ISAF Offshore special regulations require either a trysail or a reef in the main that reduces the luff at least 40%.
Michel Capel, Freedom 44 #4 1981 'Alabama Queen', NED8188, cat ketch with wishbones, home port Enkhuizen, the Netherlands, 52*42.238'N 005*18.154'E.

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