Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Boat handling, ideas, questions...

Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby norfolk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:35 pm

As a previous Freedom 38 owner, I must say I miss the boat tremendously (Except those nasty light air summer days on the Chesapeake.). While at the Annapolis boat show I visited the Sabre Spirit, Alerions, Hanse, and a handful of other designs that were playing with the self tending jib concept 20+ years after the fact. These designs were running their forestays from 75% up to all the way up to the masthead.

I seem to remember a posting on the original Freedom site of an F38 with a much taller jib. Haarstick had made the sail. Has anyone else played with this concept? If so what was entailed with the modification as far as attachment to the mast? Mark Edwards might have some recollection of this.

Was there any notable gain as far as speed was concerned?

Any comment on the 40/40s and Pedrick 35s with the over lapping headsails? Don't you have to use running back stays?

I still enjoy an occasional race, but we have a fair amount of light air days in the summer. That is why I am bringing this up.
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby sailmon » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:42 pm

I think running back stays are required for taller sails.
I'm thinking about a code zero or asymetric on a detachable flexible furler to add some horsepower to my F38.
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby GeoffSchultz » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:09 am

I missed this post while off skiing. Anyhow, I have a 40/40 (hull 25) with a 7/8 rig and it doesn't use any running back stays. I've never heard of any problems related to not having them. I have heard of masts being broken by people who have run a spinnaker to the masthead. I did see one 40/40 in the BVIs who running backstays as well as Genoa track, but in my opinion he was missing the Freedom concept.

Now please understand that I'm a cruiser who typically spends 6 month of the year on the boat outside of the country. When I'm moving the boat, I typically need to get from point A to B within daylight hours. I ran an asymmetric spinnaker for a while, but it was more of a pain than a help. The wind range that it was useful in was too restrictive in my opinion, especially when I could just run wing on wing with the self tending jib and have a much larger range. As a result I don't use it any more.

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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby sailmon » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:24 pm

Interesting thoughts on asymmetrical spi. I was thinking about a reaching sail on flexible furler for our F38. Will need to give some serious thought to construction so as to have reasonable wind range. Am not sure if it would replace the self-tacking jib - but would really love to free up foredeck for docking and anchoring.
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby daletournier » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:03 am

Hi all, I agree with Geoff in regards to the assymetrical. I believe for the amount of times the angle is suitable its not worth the hassle. I also dont see that much more performance improvement over trimming my jib main properly. This could just be me not using it as well as it could be used but I have experimented a fair bit and other than looking really cool Im not overly impressed. The new feathering prop and clean bottom on the other hand.
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby daletournier » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:06 am

I forgot to mention my mast was replaced in 1997/8. Apparently broke as a result of running a spinnaker from the mast head while racing.
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby bighopper252 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:55 pm

So, on the F35, there are some owners who only have a self tending jib ( with all the inconveniences of cluttering a deck when need is to anchor...). there are other owners with a 110, 135 and even larger geny with side tracks. Does that mean that it is all a matter of infinitesimal angle when close to the wind and speed gain?
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby daletournier » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:02 am

Sorry I may be showing my ignorance but I dont quite understand your question , infinitesminal angle?
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby bighopper252 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:07 am

It was a question! :?: I am not a Freedom owner (yet?) My question was if there is a real advantage to rig a self tending job with a camberspar or any other device, versus rigging a roller furler jib. The latter creates a better venturi effect between the two sails in my opinion. The larger jib also provides more sail area - necessary on Long Island sound in Mid-July. It should also be way more efficient in wing-on-wing situations. Does all that makes sense? Or are the gains "infinitesimal" ? :?
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Re: Self tacking jib on the sloop rig.

Postby unfetteredalexandria » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:38 am

It seems like what you may be wondering about is not the performance of self-tending vs. roller-furling headsails per se, but rather the performance of overlapping vs. non-overlapping headsails. There are a lot of posts on this topic scattered around the board. Try searching for "staysail" and you will find quite a few. You might also talk to sailmakers familiar with Freedoms, such as Steve Haarstick. The consensus seems to be that overlapping headsails win on pointing and speed performance, and as the breeze goes light, you want as much overlap as possible.

On some of the Hoyt Freedoms, it seems that Hoyt (the designer) intended not to use a headsail, but customer demand led to an option for one with some small overlap. When he came up with his camber spar idea (which is non-overlapping and self-tending), it became standard on some of the boats. After leaving Freedom, he had an idea he called the "jib-boom." This is included with the Alerions he is now selling, and I've seen them on other boats as well. This would seem to let you have your roller-fuller and also have a spar at the foot of the sail, with self-tending as an option as well.

It seems to me that what Hoyt was after on the Freedoms he designed was to avoid hassles. To his eye, removing the need for tacking and trimming a large overlapping genoa was one of the ways his design accomplished its goal. The extent to which you agree with Hoyt could be your guide as to what kind of headsail, if any, you want to use.
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