Posted by jw2nsc (jwnsc@…>)
Hello, I’m new to the group and joined because I’m attracted to the
free-standing rig concept. Having said that, has anyone converted their
Freedom cat sloop, ketch or schooner to a junk rig? Not sure if a junk
rig has enough advantages to justify a change if the present sail(s)
is/are sound, but maybe something to think about if a boat needed new
sails. Thanks.
Jim Williams
Charleston, SC
Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)
Yes, it has and is being done.
We’ve just bought a freedom 33 cat ketch, and it is up on blocks in
Beaufort, NC waiting for us to move over and start fixing stuff in the
yard. One of the jobs will be convert it to a junk rig. (It has
original (1981!) wrap-around wishbone sails, so some changes are
needed)
I also know that Pete Hill purchased a Freedom 33 and did a refit on
it which will include a junk rig. (I have not heard how it went, but
intend to try and find out soon!)
Further, I have seen a photo of a another F33 converted to a junk rig
in an ad for Christopher Scanes on the back cover of the Junk Rig
Association newsletter a couple years back. I should probably ask for
info about that conversion as well.
I would not be surprised if there have been others, but I do not
currently know of them. Please let me know of any others you hear of.
Barry
On Jan 24, 2008 11:04 AM, jw2nsc <jwnsc@…> wrote:
Hello, I’m new to the group and joined because I’m attracted to the
free-standing rig concept. Having said that, has anyone converted their
Freedom cat sloop, ketch or schooner to a junk rig? Not sure if a junk
rig has enough advantages to justify a change if the present sail(s)
is/are sound, but maybe something to think about if a boat needed new
sails. Thanks.Jim Williams
Charleston, SC
Posted by phildowneyuk (phildowneyuk@…>)
hi,
i saw a junk rigged freedom 35 in a uk boat magazine pictured in the
canary islands (she was mid blue hull and decks same colour as the
send button on this page) as for me im tempted to make up a pair of
massive lugsails for light airs out of 2 oz nylon (spi cloth)im a
sailmaker and even i doubt its a good use of time and money but she`d
go like heck!
On the plus side:
ridiculously easy sail handling
cheaper sails
you can make the lot yourself
a large increase in sail area is possible due to the top batten
adding stacks of area on the back of the sails, which is a more
efficient planform light air and offwind performance should improve
my concerns would be:
weight aloft in terms of battens decreasing the stability from as
designed
it will be possible to apply a larger sail load to the rig than the
masts were designed for (i wonder what insurers would say if you
snapped one of those pricy masts after changing the sailplan)
moving centre of effort aft possibly messing up balance
lack of windward efficiency (can be improved by going for an advanced
version)
loss of self vanging effect of wishbone booms
loss of the dynamic depowering effect of flexible sail on bendy mast
need to reef earlier due to extra area
have fun , phil downey
Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)
On Jan 24, 2008 3:51 PM, phildowneyuk <phildowneyuk@…> wrote:
On the plus side:
Snip…All seem right to me…
my concerns would be:
Snip…Agree on most of 'em, but have a couple comments:
weight aloft in terms of battens decreasing the stability from as
designed
It is undeniably a heavier rig, but the extra weight aloft does get
lower as you reef.
moving centre of effort aft possibly messing up balance
This is easier to avoid than you think, because the junk sails
typically have 10% balance in front of the mast, and it can be as high
as 25% in some circumstances. (No problem at all on the cat ketches;
probably more of an issue with sloop rigged Freedoms)
loss of self vanging effect of wishbone booms
Junk sails have no need more need for a vang than wishbone boomed sails.
need to reef earlier due to extra area
True, but not a problem because reefing is soooooo much easier: Just
slack the halyard until the 1st and 2nd battens are stuck together.
The sheet is effectively eased a bit in the process, so tighten it up
a bit and keep on sailing. If you need to reef more, drop two or three
panels at a time instead of one.
Then again…even though you CAN put up more sail area, you do get to
choose how much to actually put up.
Barry
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
I’ll just add my 2 cts based on my experience with Bright Star, a
Freedom 40 cat ketch. I would think twice about any rig that put more
sail area up high and also reduced your pointing ability. The cat
ketches in general already only point through about 100-110 - it’d seem
unwise to reduce that ability any further. The extra sail area aloft is
definitely more efficient, but on Bright Star we were throwing our
first reef in the mizzen at 12 kts, the first reef in the main at
around 18. In other words, there was plenty of power in the rig to
begin with.
Like I said, this is just opinion, but one of the things that I liked
about Bright Star (and Glory for that matter) was the ease of sail
control. There’s one sheet per sail, there are two reefing lines for
the main, end of story.
Lance
“Glory”
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “jw2nsc” <jwnsc@…> wrote:
Hello, I’m new to the group and joined because I’m attracted to the
free-standing rig concept. Having said that, has anyone converted
their
Freedom cat sloop, ketch or schooner to a junk rig? Not sure if a
junk
rig has enough advantages to justify a change if the present sail(s)
is/are sound, but maybe something to think about if a boat needed new
sails. Thanks.Jim Williams
Charleston, SC
Posted by jw2nsc (jwnsc@…>)
Many thanks for the replies. So, the
bottom line is yes, a junk rig is doable
on a Freedom boat, especially the models
with two masts. If done you may get a
slight decrease in windward efficiency
from that seen from a cat rig in exchange
for easier sail-handling and potentially
better reaching and downwind performance
at a lower cost.
Jim
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
I wonder if a junk rig would really be a significant improvement over a
catketch rig in terms of reaching and running and ease of handling. The
known advantages of junk rigs are all set off against conventional
rigs. Junk sails are probably cheaper, because I understand that they
are totally flat. An advantage would also be more area high up, but
that can also be achieved with a heavily roached cat sail; look e.g. at
the Wyliecats at wcxww.wyliecat.com
I would not be too fearfull of increasing the sail area, as long as
you’re prudent and know when to reef. With a junk rig, the top loading
of the sail is not at the top of the mast, but at the point where the
top batten crosses the mast: a point far from the mast top. I wouldn’t
worry about that. I would worry about a top hoisted code zero sail,
like a gennaker.
If you look at the ratios of SA/length, SA/displ. and so on, you always
see that the Freedom catketches are undercanvassed. My own experience
with F33/35s and F44s confirms this. Upwind in light airs you’re always
at a loss with these boats so a bit more cloth doesn’t hurt at all.
Michel
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “jw2nsc” <jwnsc@…> wrote:
Many thanks for the replies. So, the
bottom line is yes, a junk rig is doable
on a Freedom boat, especially the models
with two masts. If done you may get a
slight decrease in windward efficiency
from that seen from a cat rig in exchange
for easier sail-handling and potentially
better reaching and downwind performance
at a lower cost.Jim
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
If you look at the ratios of SA/length, SA/displ. and so on, you
always
see that the Freedom catketches are undercanvassed. My own experience
Michel,
I wonder if those SA/D ratios were for the wishbone models? I am
certain that many people switched to the conventional booms in order to
create more sail area, and I would venture that Bright Star, when I
bought her, was never undercanvassed. Adding a conventional boom and
sail track was probably cheaper than building better wishbones.
As far as ease of handling, we never got to true single-line reefing on
Bright Star. If I’d kept her for another year, I probably would have.
I’m not trying to be argumentative; I’m hoping for some enlightenment
on this, but from what I’ve seen of Junk rigs, you have a main sheet,
and a sheetlet that goes to each batten in the sail. Is this actually
easier to handle than a single main sheet? Are fully-battened junk rig
sails easier to haul up the mast than a fully battened full-roach main?
I could jibe the main on Bright Star fully in the shadow of the Mizzen,
then jibe the mizzen with very little shock to the rig. Is it even
easier to jibe a junk? With no first hand knowledge of junk rigs
(except when I was a kid - my stepfather had a 19’ chinese
junk “schooner.” He proposed to my mom on it, and I can remember them
sewing the bamboo battens into the sails).
Can someone with firsthand knowledge list some of the pros and cons of
the rigs?
Thanks,
Lance
Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)
Lance:
I agree. For me, the initial appeal of the Freedom boats was their uniqueness,
their unconventionality and flaunting of the boating norms. The fac that they
were also simple, efficient, weatherly, fast and easy to handle made them even
more appealing.
So I wonder why one would wish to convert to a junk rig? To be even more
inconventional? OK, but why would a junk rig be better? Morfe sail area? Seems
to me if you want more sail area, you could just get more sails. Like a staysail
or a drifter/reacher. Some may find the junk rig more apeaking, but to my mind,
the cat ketch rig maybe more close-winded, has fewer lines, is easoer to
maintain and is more picturesque. A junk rig may be better downwind.
Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL
---- lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
If you look at the ratios of SA/length, SA/displ. and so on, you
always
see that the Freedom catketches are undercanvassed. My own experienceMichel,
I wonder if those SA/D ratios were for the wishbone models? I am
certain that many people switched to the conventional booms in order to
create more sail area, and I would venture that Bright Star, when I
bought her, was never undercanvassed. Adding a conventional boom and
sail track was probably cheaper than building better wishbones.As far as ease of handling, we never got to true single-line reefing on
Bright Star. If I’d kept her for another year, I probably would have.
I’m not trying to be argumentative; I’m hoping for some enlightenment
on this, but from what I’ve seen of Junk rigs, you have a main sheet,
and a sheetlet that goes to each batten in the sail. Is this actually
easier to handle than a single main sheet? Are fully-battened junk rig
sails easier to haul up the mast than a fully battened full-roach main?
I could jibe the main on Bright Star fully in the shadow of the Mizzen,
then jibe the mizzen with very little shock to the rig. Is it even
easier to jibe a junk? With no first hand knowledge of junk rigs
(except when I was a kid - my stepfather had a 19’ chinese
junk “schooner.” He proposed to my mom on it, and I can remember them
sewing the bamboo battens into the sails).Can someone with firsthand knowledge list some of the pros and cons of
the rigs?Thanks,
Lance
–
Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
When I had new sails made for my F-33 (non
wishbone rig) I had them designed with a very large roach. This added quite a
bit of sail area to both sails. I need to reef a little sooner but in light air
or downwind it’s a significant difference.
My limited understanding of junk rigs
would lead me to believe that:
Maybe
since they extend forward of the mast they’re somewhat balanced so less
force on the sheet (but force on the sheet is not a problem for me. I don’t
use winches for the main or mizzen and have no problems). Also perhaps you
get a bit more sail area but not so much more then a very large roach.
The
reefing method is quite nice on a junk rig.
Sail
shape would not be as good to windward.
I’m
not sure the added weight aloft and risk of unproven design (meaning it
might take a sail plan designer a few tries to find the right combination
that’s optimal for the boat) is worth it.
On the other hand it would be fun to try
and unique.
Alan
From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of sgaber@…
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008
5:42 PM
To:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Cc: lance_ryley
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: Any Junk-Rigged Freedoms Out There?
Lance:
I agree. For me, the initial appeal of the Freedom boats was their uniqueness,
their unconventionality and flaunting of the boating norms. The fac that they
were also simple, efficient, weatherly, fast and easy to handle made them even
more appealing.
So I wonder why one would wish to convert to a junk rig? To be even more
inconventional? OK, but why would a junk rig be better? Morfe sail area? Seems
to me if you want more sail area, you could just get more sails. Like a
staysail or a drifter/reacher. Some may find the junk rig more apeaking, but to
my mind, the cat ketch rig maybe more close-winded, has fewer lines, is easoer
to maintain and is more picturesque. A junk rig may be better downwind.
Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL
---- lance_ryley <lance_ryley@yahoo.com>
wrote:
If you look at the ratios of SA/length, SA/displ. and so on, you
always
see that the Freedom catketches are undercanvassed. My own experience
Michel,
I wonder if those SA/D ratios were for the wishbone models? I am
certain that many people switched to the conventional booms in order to
create more sail area, and I would venture that Bright Star, when I
bought her, was never undercanvassed. Adding a conventional boom and
sail track was probably cheaper than building better wishbones.As far as ease of handling, we never got to true single-line reefing on
Bright Star. If I’d kept her for another year, I probably would have.
I’m not trying to be argumentative; I’m hoping for some enlightenment
on this, but from what I’ve seen of Junk rigs, you have a main sheet,
and a sheetlet that goes to each batten in the sail. Is this actually
easier to handle than a single main sheet? Are fully-battened junk rig
sails easier to haul up the mast than a fully battened full-roach main?
I could jibe the main on Bright Star fully in the shadow of the Mizzen,
then jibe the mizzen with very little shock to the rig. Is it even
easier to jibe a junk? With no first hand knowledge of junk rigs
(except when I was a kid - my stepfather had a 19’ chinese
junk “schooner.” He proposed to my mom on it, and I can remember
them
sewing the bamboo battens into the sails).Can someone with firsthand knowledge list some of the pros and cons of
the rigs?Thanks,
Lance
–
\
Posted by Barry Stellrecht (yak@…>)
On Jan 25, 2008 2:30 PM, lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Can someone with firsthand knowledge list some of the pros and cons of
the rigs?
Well, compared to the Freedom rigs, the advantages are EXTREME ease of
reefing, and being a low-stress rig that tolerates cheaper sail
fabrics, and is much more feasible to home-build as good a set of
sails as you could want. In other words, far cheaper to build and
maintain than conventional sails.
Ease of handling is similar, and the sails could be a bit easier to
raise–they are heavier (a yard and bigger battens to lift), but don’t
have the friction of a sail track (or wrap-around sail!) to deal with.
And weight helps you going down, while friction is against you either
way.
I wouldn’t expect performance to improve, except downwind if you can
project more sail area. (Bigger sails on the same masts) JR sails
aren’t aerodynamically perfect, but then again, a big mast in front of
each sail on a cat ketch isn’t an aerodynamically perfect either. On
the other hand, I don’t expect it to be very much worse either.
[Note, JR sails can be made with some camber, and they sail much
better than flat JR sails]
I expect to have less running sail control lines once my conversion is
complete, however the 4-6 part purchases on halyards and sheets will
make for a lot more line to stow at times.
Barry
Posted by kerslakebrian (kerslakebrian@…>)
Having owned a Sunbird 32 schooner junk since 1980 (built in the UK),
I can vouch for the ease of handling and versatility of these rigs.
Those of you who want to find out more can look at
http://www.junkrigs.com and see the range of sail types available
within the genre.
As to converting a Freedom to junk, sounds fine to me and good luck,
Barry, with the project. As`he knows, it isn’t unique to convert a
Freedom - solo yachtsman Pete Hill - see
http://www.towndock.net/shipping/2007_05_01_shiparchive.html (who
recently sailed the Atlantic in a junk rigged 30+ year old Kingfisher
20) is converting his Freedom right now, and Gary Griffin - see
http://www.junkrigs.com/rally2006-summer.htm - did the conversion some
time ago.
You have to sail a junk to know how easy it is. I haven’t sailed a
Fredom, but I can imagine the difference, and once I find a buyer for
my Sunbird - see http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/15981 -
I’ll be looking for a Freedom too. The masts are in just the right place.
Brian Kerslake
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Barry Stellrecht”
<yak@…> wrote:
On Jan 25, 2008 2:30 PM, lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Can someone with firsthand knowledge list some of the pros and cons of
the rigs?Well, compared to the Freedom rigs, the advantages are EXTREME ease of
reefing, and being a low-stress rig that tolerates cheaper sail
fabrics, and is much more feasible to home-build as good a set of
sails as you could want. In other words, far cheaper to build and
maintain than conventional sails.Ease of handling is similar, and the sails could be a bit easier to
raise–they are heavier (a yard and bigger battens to lift), but don’t
have the friction of a sail track (or wrap-around sail!) to deal with.
And weight helps you going down, while friction is against you either
way.I wouldn’t expect performance to improve, except downwind if you can
project more sail area. (Bigger sails on the same masts) JR sails
aren’t aerodynamically perfect, but then again, a big mast in front of
each sail on a cat ketch isn’t an aerodynamically perfect either. On
the other hand, I don’t expect it to be very much worse either.
[Note, JR sails can be made with some camber, and they sail much
better than flat JR sails]I expect to have less running sail control lines once my conversion is
complete, however the 4-6 part purchases on halyards and sheets will
make for a lot more line to stow at times.Barry