Posted by Peter Schaefer (pcschaefer@…>)
To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, they seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.
Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by jerry weinraub (zayde@…>)
Wonderful-but,have you noticed,most boats sold and used are less than 45
feet
----- Original Message -----
From: “Peter Schaefer” <pcschaefer@…>
To: <freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Cat Ketch Revival
\
To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, they seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
PeterYahoo! Groups Links
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?
Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of a
fixed freestanding mast?
just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@…> wrote:
To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.
I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night 
I suspect that they would offer a non-
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Michel,
here’s an alternative:
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote: Michel,I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38 CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears that the mizzen is pretty close to the
central pivot point on the boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it in the middle of the night I suspect that they would offer a non-wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’ but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten
from Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:>> At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.> > However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the > catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there be > enough volume out front to carry the mainmast? > > Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories of > a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats > below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive > and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will > probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of a > fixed freestanding mast?> > just my first
thoughts.> > michel> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer > <pcschaefer@> wrote:> >> > To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:> > > > On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, they > seem > > to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.> > > > Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html> > > > Greetings> > Peter> >>
All new Yahoo! Mail Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.
Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
Round masts are not the answer in reducing sailing around at the
mooring. I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and found
they too sail around like crazy. I think that the forward position of
a mast on a cat boat has a large contribution to the sailaround
characteristic. BTW, Garry Hoyt states that the 25’s wing mast
(bare) is its ultimate storm sail.The rotation of the mast can be
controlled via the mainsheet->boom->rotation limiter, so that
theoretically one can point, or reach, or run. I’ve also found that
the Hobie 14 (rotating wing mast of small cross-section) also sails
slowly under the push of its mast.
Herm SV Impulse (Mull 28)
At 09:10 AM 2/8/2007, andre laviolette wrote:
Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping
the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/inde
x.html
Greetings
Peterhttp://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
All
new Yahoo! MailGet news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.
Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
Michel,
Tapered ball/roller bearings come off-the-shelf in some VERY
large sizes. Harken also makes a line of large non-ferrous bearings
intended for rudder bearing use that could be useful for a large
mast. If one can a afford a boat that size, replacement parts for
mast bearings should not bother the owner. If you’ve ever sailed a
wing-mast boat and had the mast fail to rotate, one quickly
understands the contribution the rotating mast contributes to boat
speed. Wing masts are really a great feature, but they do cause
difficulty in mounting spinnaker fittings or making a boom vang work
well. Give me a rotating, freestanding mast anytime; I’ll cope with
the little details.
Herm SV Impulse
At 07:17 AM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@…> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/inde
x.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by webmaster (akusinitz@…>)
Of course there are pros and cons to
everything. I will say I was surprised how much of a difference the rotating
masts on woebegone daze made to sail trim. Slight changes in rotation made a
big difference on the one day I sailed on it. Winds were in the 18-25 knot
range and we sailed on all points of sail (including sailing back into the dock
on just the mizzen, when the engine died ).
Alan F-33
From:
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail Schiller
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007
12:13 PM
To:
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003]
Re: Cat Ketch Revival
Round masts are not the answer in reducing sailing
around at the
mooring. I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and found
they too sail around like crazy. I think that the forward position of
a mast on a cat boat has a large contribution to the sailaround
characteristic. BTW, Garry Hoyt states that the 25’s wing mast
(bare) is its ultimate storm sail.The rotation of the mast can be
controlled via the mainsheet->boom->rotation limiter, so that
theoretically one can point, or reach, or run. I’ve also found that
the Hobie 14 (rotating wing mast of small cross-section) also sails
slowly under the push of its mast.
Herm SV Impulse (Mull 28)
At 09:10 AM 2/8/2007, andre laviolette wrote:
Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping
the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles
River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:
To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.htmlGreetings
Peter<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca>All
new Yahoo! Mail
Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.
\
Posted by fgljff (fgljff@…>)
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Herman and Gail Schiller
<hschiller2@…>
wrote:
I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and found
they too sail around like crazy.
I owned a Nonsuch 30 (hull 146) and kept it on a mooring. I never once saw it
‘sail around’
the mooring.
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
In a cruising boat where sail area is not accountable to a rating, a little extra sail area makes up for the performance loss. The F25 round mast has a one foot taller mast and a one foot longer boom to make up the performance difference. Wing mast are more complex, more fragile but more fun ! Up to 20% more lift ! The absolute worst boat I have ever watched sail about its anchor is the F45. I watched a couple for some time in different anchorages and was surprised they did not sail out their anchor(s). Good boat though. A riding sail set on main halyard to two points on aft end of boat may reduce the tendancy. Andre.webmaster <akusinitz@…> wrote: Of course there are pros and cons to everything. I will say I was surprised how much of a difference the rotating masts on woebegone daze made to sail trim. Slight changes in rotation made a big difference on the one day I sailed on it. Winds were in the 18-25 knot range and we sailed on all points of sail (including sailing back into the dock on just the mizzen, when the engine died ). Alan F-33 From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail SchillerSent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 12:13 PMTo:
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Cat Ketch Revival Round masts are not the answer in reducing sailing around at the mooring. I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and found they too sail around like crazy. I think that the forward position of a mast on a cat boat has a large contribution to the sailaround characteristic. BTW, Garry Hoyt states that the 25’s wing mast (bare) is its ultimate storm sail.The rotation of the mast can be controlled via the mainsheet->boom->rotation limiter, so that theoretically one can point, or reach, or run. I’ve also found
that the Hobie 14 (rotating wing mast of small cross-section) also sails slowly under the push of its mast.Herm SV Impulse (Mull 28)At 09:10 AM 2/8/2007, andre laviolette wrote:>Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping >the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.>>lance_ryley <lance_ryley@yahoo.com> wrote:>Michel,>I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to>indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38>CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length>and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears>that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the>boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be>more efficient as a Cat
Schooner.>>I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is>currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s>about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m>trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can>feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that>with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so>who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it>in the middle of the night I suspect that they would offer a non->wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’>but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like>to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts>are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from>Freedom/Legacy Yachts.>>Lance>— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, >“michel.capel”><michel.capel@…> wrote:> >> > At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.> >> > However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the> > catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there>be> > enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?> >> > Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories>of> > a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats> > below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive> > and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will> > probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy
of>a> > fixed freestanding mast?> >> > just my first thoughts.> >> > michel> >> > — In > mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, > Peter Schaefer> > <pcschaefer@> wrote:> > >> > > To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:> > >> > > On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,>they> > seem> > > to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.> > >> > > Have a look at > <http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html> > >> > > Greetings> > > Peter> > >> >>>>><http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca>All >new Yahoo! Mail>>Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.>
All new Yahoo! Mail -
Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane.
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
We had a 10 Bft storm here a few weeks ago. My F44 was moored along a
quay. The yard guys had never seen a boat list 20* just from the
windage on the masts! So I’m glad I have round masts and not wing
masts.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem
to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer
length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would
be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do
that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job,
so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night
non-
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower
performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will
there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard
stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On
boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not
expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings
will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy
of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Andre, does that really work? I thought it just helped to reduce the
vibrations.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:
Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping
the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote: Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem
to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer
length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would
be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do
that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job,
so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower
performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will
there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard
stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On
boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not
expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings
will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy
of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
All new Yahoo! Mail
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Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
The examples mentioned here of anchor-sailers are all single mast
boats. My F33/35 catketch never sailed at anchor, not even in a 5 kt
current against the wind. Of course, in that case she laid abeam to
the anchor and chain, but still stationary.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:
In a cruising boat where sail area is not accountable to a rating,
a little extra sail area makes up for the performance loss. The F25
round mast has a one foot taller mast and a one foot longer boom to
make up the performance difference.
Wing mast are more complex, more fragile but more fun ! Up to
20% more lift !The absolute worst boat I have ever watched sail about its anchor
is the F45. I watched a couple for some time in different anchorages
and was surprised they did not sail out their anchor(s). Good boat
though.
A riding sail set on main halyard to two points on aft end of
boat may reduce the tendancy.Andre.
webmaster <akusinitz@…> wrote:
Of course there are pros and cons to everything. I
will say I was surprised how much of a difference the rotating masts
on woebegone daze made to sail trim. Slight changes in rotation made
a big difference on the one day I sailed on it. Winds were in the 18-
25 knot range and we sailed on all points of sail (including sailing
back into the dock on just the mizzen, when the engine died ).
Alan F-33
From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and
Gail Schiller
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 12:13 PM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Cat Ketch RevivalRound masts are not the answer in reducing sailing around
at the
mooring. I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and found
they too sail around like crazy. I think that the forward position
of
a mast on a cat boat has a large contribution to the sailaround
characteristic. BTW, Garry Hoyt states that the 25’s wing mast
(bare) is its ultimate storm sail.The rotation of the mast can be
controlled via the mainsheet->boom->rotation limiter, so that
theoretically one can point, or reach, or run. I’ve also found that
the Hobie 14 (rotating wing mast of small cross-section) also sails
slowly under the push of its mast.
Herm SV Impulse (Mull 28)At 09:10 AM 2/8/2007, andre laviolette wrote:
Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But
wraping
the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem
to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer
length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would
be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do
that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job,
so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it
in the middle of the night
non-
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower
performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like
to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In
<mailto:freedomyachts2003%
40yahoogroups.com>freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with
the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will
there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard
stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On
boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not
expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings
will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy
of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
<mailto:freedomyachts2003%
40yahoogroups.com>freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-
yachts.com/index.htmlGreetings
Peter<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta
?.intl=ca>Allnew Yahoo! Mail
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Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Thanks, Herm, for your explanation. About these petty details: how do
you mount a masttop windindicator set? and a tricolor light?
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Herman and Gail Schiller
<hschiller2@…> wrote:
Michel,
Tapered ball/roller bearings come off-the-shelf in some
VERY
large sizes. Harken also makes a line of large non-ferrous
bearings
intended for rudder bearing use that could be useful for a large
mast. If one can a afford a boat that size, replacement parts for
mast bearings should not bother the owner. If you’ve ever sailed a
wing-mast boat and had the mast fail to rotate, one quickly
understands the contribution the rotating mast contributes to boat
speed. Wing masts are really a great feature, but they do cause
difficulty in mounting spinnaker fittings or making a boom vang
work
well. Give me a rotating, freestanding mast anytime; I’ll cope with
the little details.
Herm SV ImpulseAt 07:17 AM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
<mailto:freedomyachts2003%
40yahoogroups.com>freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-
yachts.com/index.htmlGreetings
Peter
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Nice boat too! Sponberg scaled up Wobegon Daze! I am not very fond
of these huge profile wingmasts; they look a bit clumsy.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Michel,
here’s an alternative:
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htmLance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will
there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard
stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On
boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not
expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings
will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy
of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Wraping a halyard around and around the wing mast from top to bottom greatly reduces the lift generated. J. Cousteau used a rotating cylinder to produce lift, that assisted forward motion, on a research vessel. Notice the spiral flatbar that winds round and round tall cylinders such as industrial chimneys. The physics are always present. Andre. “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote: Andre, does that really work? I thought it just
helped to reduce the vibrations.— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette <andrelaviolette@…> wrote:>> Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But wraping the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.> > lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote: Michel,> I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does seem to > indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the 38 > CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer length > and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also appears > that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on the > boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design would be > more efficient as a Cat Schooner.> > I also wondered
about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star is > currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide there’s > about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m > trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can > feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do that > with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day job, so > who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does it > in the middle of the night I suspect that they would offer a non-> wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower performance’ > but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d like > to see someone actually building something like that. The concepts > are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from > Freedom/Legacy Yachts.> > Lance> — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel” > <michel.capel@> wrote:> >> > At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.> > > > However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the > > catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there > be > > enough volume out front to carry the mainmast? > > > > Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories > of > > a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats > > below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive > > and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will > > probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of > a > > fixed
freestanding mast?> > > > just my first thoughts.> > > > michel> > > > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer > > <pcschaefer@> wrote:> > >> > > To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:> > > > > > On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions, > they > > seem > > > to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.> > > > > > Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html> > > > > > Greetings> > > Peter> > >> >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------> All new Yahoo! Mail
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Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
The sailing around nonsense typically occurred when anchored. Winds
in BVI are strong, and in some of the bays they are STRONG (venturi
effect of the hills to windward). The Nonsuch would ponderously tack
through about 120 degrees in strong (12 knots and up) winds. I can’t
recall the boat’s behavior when I used one of the rental moorings
available in BVI, but the anchoring behavior stuck in my mind. Herm
At 07:59 AM 2/9/2007, you wrote:
— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Herman and Gail Schiller <hschiller2@…>
wrote:
I’ve chartered Nonsuch 30s and 33s in the BVI, and foundthey too sail around like crazy.
I owned a Nonsuch 30 (hull 146) and kept it on a mooring. I never
once saw it ‘sail around’
the mooring.
Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)
Michel,
On the Freedom 25 with rotating wing mast the “axle” that
the tapered roller bearing rides on is hollow. Wires/cables/ Pass
through the bottom of the mast, through the hollow axle, and onward
from there. Herm
At 08:53 AM 2/10/2007, you wrote:
Thanks, Herm, for your explanation. About these petty details: how do
you mount a masttop windindicator set? and a tricolor light?— In
mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
Herman and Gail Schiller
<hschiller2@…> wrote:Michel,
Tapered ball/roller bearings come off-the-shelf in some
VERY
large sizes. Harken also makes a line of large non-ferrous
bearings
intended for rudder bearing use that could be useful for a large
mast. If one can a afford a boat that size, replacement parts for
mast bearings should not bother the owner. If you’ve ever sailed a
wing-mast boat and had the mast fail to rotate, one quickly
understands the contribution the rotating mast contributes to boat
speed. Wing masts are really a great feature, but they do cause
difficulty in mounting spinnaker fittings or making a boom vang
work
well. Give me a rotating, freestanding mast anytime; I’ll cope with
the little details.
Herm SV ImpulseAt 07:17 AM 2/8/2007, you wrote:
At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the simplicitiy of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In
<mailto:freedomyachts2003%
40yahoogroups.com>mailto:freedomyachts2003%40yahoogroups.comfreedomyachts2003
@yahoogroups.com,Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at
<<http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html>http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/ind
ex.html>http://www.freestyle-
Greetings
Peter
Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)
Thanks Andre, I’m going to try that. Indeed I have a factory chimney
close by with a spiral around it.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@…> wrote:
Wraping a halyard around and around the wing mast from top to
bottom greatly reduces the lift generated.
J. Cousteau used a rotating cylinder to produce lift, that
assisted forward motion, on a research vessel.
Notice the spiral flatbar that winds round and round tall
cylinders such as industrial chimneys. The physics are always
present.Andre.
“michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:
Andre, does that really work? I thought it just helped
to reduce the
vibrations.— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, andre laviolette
<andrelaviolette@> wrote:Wing masts do provide lift at the dock or at a mooring. But
wraping
the halyard round and round the mast reduces much of the lift.lance_ryley <lance_ryley@> wrote: Michel,
I wondered about those two things as well - the bow form does
seem
to
indicate something along the Freedom 38’s entry, which makes the
38
CK an exciting ride downwind. Unless they feel that the sheer
length
and size of the boat provides the proper balance. It also
appears
that the mizzen is pretty close to the central pivot point on
the
boat - what’s that going to do to the helm? Maybe the design
would
be
more efficient as a Cat Schooner.I also wondered about the rotating wing masts. Where Bright Star
is
currently, she gets a pretty wild ride because at low tide
there’s
about 5 - 7 kts of current coming out of the Charles River. I’m
trying to imagine a wing mast adding to the mix. I know you can
feather a wing mast to minimize the effect, but a) how do you do
that
with a winter cover on? b) I live aboard, but I do have a day
job,
so
who does that in the middle of the day? (I already know who does
it
in the middle of the night
non-
wingmast model as well, like the Freedom 25, as a ‘lower
performance’
but more cost effective model. Still, it’s intriguing, and I’d
like
to see someone actually building something like that. The
concepts
are much too good for the treatment they’ve gotten from
Freedom/Legacy Yachts.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:At first glance, a wonderful idea. and a goodlooking boat.
However, I wonder whether the hull design has been drawn with
the
catketch rig in mind. The bow sections are very narrow; will
there
be
enough volume out front to carry the mainmast?Also, they plan to use rotating wingmasts. I’ve only heard
stories
of
a lifetime of trouble with rotating masts on larger boats. On
boats
below 35 ft, you can use common truck wheel bearings, not
expensive
and readily available. For thicker wingmasts, custom bearings
will
probably have to be fabricated. Why not opt for the
simplicitiy
of
a
fixed freestanding mast?just my first thoughts.
michel
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Peter Schaefer
<pcschaefer@> wrote:To all lovers of Freedom cat ketches:
On the Isle of Man, where they used to build the UK
versions,
they
seem
to opt for a more modern revival of this layout.Have a look at http://www.freestyle-yachts.com/index.html
Greetings
Peter
All new Yahoo! Mail
Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail page.
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk
email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail