Difference between US and EU views on safety issues and regs.

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me again how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on top of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst hose at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a safety valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a big boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

Interesting discussion on Diesel - I’ll add my two experiences.

first about the red diesel. When I still had bright star, I was
getting a pool of red fluid under the transmission, which I thought,
because of its color, was… transmission fluid! I checked the level,
and it seemed to be right, but more fluid kept appearing, so I pulled
my transmission and had the seals serviced. For what it’s worth, on
the Hurth’s you can’t do this job yourself unless you happen to be a
diesel/transmission mechanic, because the shaft seals are internal and
the hurth has to be opened up. The transmission came back with new
seals, was reinstalled and… there was still red fluid leaking into
the engine pan.

My second assumption was that the hydraulics were leaking - in fact I
knew they were, and I knew where. Originally, there was solid copper
tubing going up the pedestal, then joined to what turned out to be air
compressor hose in the engine compartment. It was leaking at the
joint. I had used transmission fluid in the hydraulic reservoir as a
stopgap on a cruise, and then when I got back I set about getting new,
hydraulic-grade hoses made. While I was at it, I replaced the
reservoir, which had a damaged filter unit in it. It took about 3
weeks to find the right kind of 45 degree angle hydraulic fittings to
get hose to fit down the edson pedestal, but the end result was
extremely gratifying.

Except of course for the red fluid under the transmission. I knew it
wasn’t the hydraulics because I’d replaced the fluid with Hynautic
hydraulic oil, so I finally broke down and hired one of our marina
mechanics to take a look. He thought it was transmission fluid too,
until he realized… as I should have… that diesel is colored red for
offroad use, and that’s what in fact had been leaking the whole time.
He found that one of the injector pipes was slightly out of alignment,
so it spurted diesel when the engine was under load. Never had another
problem.

On Glory, we were on a tight schedule to get the boat to Boston after
purchase. I had been down in Sakonnet working hard with George to
finish commissioning systems, and on Saturday morning, I started the
engine, just as he had told me. Vroom and much rejoicing… nervous
optimism at being able to leave in a couple hours. I put the engine
under light reverse load, just to feel it… and the engine died. A
few more cranks and it was obvious it wasn’t going to start. I looked
in the engine room and the racor was STUFFED with water. It turned out
that the deck fill was open about 1/4 turn… all winter.

Fortunately, one of my friends back in Boston had just started a fuel
polishing business. He came down and started polishing the fuel and
cleaning the tank. One nice feature on the Freedom 45 fuel tank is
that there is a sump and a good inspection port - it was relatively
easy for him to vacuum out the gunk, and the water came out of the
polishing. It may have been true years ago that fuel polishing didn’t
really work that well, but the Algae-X setup he used was extremely
effective. We were able to motor out of Brewer’s that afternoon and
get ourselves to Cuttyhunk before the evening fell.

So we’ve done our first major winter project this past weekend.
Without getting into arguments about the merits of diesel vs. propane
heaters, we decided we needed to do something to supplement the
electric heat we generally use in the winter time. Eventually, we’ll
put in a diesel-fired hydronic system like the Hurricane, but for now,
we just needed something to take off the chill - something we could
use at the dock, on anchor, or underway if necessary, so we decided on
the Newport Dickinson P-12000 direct-vent propane heater. It’s rated
to 9700 BTU and I think will do a good job of taking the edge off. It
burns 1lb/4 hours on high, which gives a 20 lb tank around 80 hours
(110 hours on the low setting). The stack is a double-wall, with cold
air coming down the outer wall into the combustion chamber, and
exhaust gases going up the inner stack. This means no air in the boat
is burned. The problem was deciding where to put it.

We finally decided that from a venting and convenience standpoint, the
unit would go on the bulkhead at the forward end of the dining table.
While we lose a little bit of sitting comfort, there is still enough
room to slide past the heater and sit at the table. The sides of the
unit stay relatively cool, with only the front of the unit becoming
extremely hot. We started on Saturday around 1 pm to install the deck
cap, stack, and fireplace. To mount the unit, which comes
pre-installed on a stainless steel heat shield, I had to drop the
mirror in the forward head. flat head machine screws were pushed
through and stainless cap nuts in the salon make the installation look
very sharp.

On sunday morning I started routing the propane line through the
bilge, under the engine compartment, through the aft cabin and into
the propane locker. It took about 3 hours, some swearing and a moment
when I was pretty sure my arm would be permanently trapped under the
galley floor, but it actually went a lot smoother than I thought it
would. While we were at it, I put in a dual-stage, two bottle
regulator and a new solenoid for the gas control. The unit also has a
fan - the electric wires were run through the wall into the head, up
over the ceiling panel, and into the distribution panel inside the
medicine cabinet. Overall, a pretty tidy installation.

Before the Patriots game was over, we had our first fire in the
fireplace - it looks good and does exactly what it was intended to do.
Pictures in the Photos section.

Lance

Posted by Roger L. (rogerlov@…>)

Michel, some of my engineering work is in the area of
international safety standards and I can’t help but notice that
countries have widely different philosophies. Maybe there are
regulations for that type of installation in the US…I don’t
know specifically. But I agree with your observation that the US
regulates fewer things and less stringently so than Europe. The
US does have areas of high regulation…for example in new home
construction. However, boats and boat construction have
traditionally been far less regulated than housing…in fact,
less regulated than most activities. Unfortunately that era of
design freedom is eroding…I say “unfortunately” since I’m
one who agrees with lesser regulation.

In my own work I would try to keep the regulator on the tank for
the reasons that you say. There are some nice hoses made, it is
just that I am not familiar with their reaction to propane
temperatures on the primary side and also don’t know much about
propane/hose chemistry. So my own engineering preference is
borne of self-ignorance coupled with conservatism! I’d be
tempted to make runs between the tank and regulator with
stainless steel piping, gas connections, and vent overboard as
well. Still, I can see many advantages to using a flexible
system onboard. If a person does his homework and makes a good
installation I don’t have a problem with that. It could be
treated similarly to high pressure hydraulics. Hydraulics are a
related area where technology has reduced dangers in spite of
proximity.
Roger F28cc


----- Original Message -----
From: “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…>
To: <FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:11 AM
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Difference between US and EU views
on safety issues and regs.

\

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me
again how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the
US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane
regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also
necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on
top of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst
hose at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar
pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a
safety valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems
like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle
empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a
big boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our
regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

Interesting discussion on Diesel - I’ll add my two
experiences.

first about the red diesel. When I still had bright star, I
was
getting a pool of red fluid under the transmission, which I
thought,
because of its color, was… transmission fluid! I checked
the level,
and it seemed to be right, but more fluid kept appearing, so
I pulled
my transmission and had the seals serviced. For what it’s
worth, on
the Hurth’s you can’t do this job yourself unless you happen
to be a
diesel/transmission mechanic, because the shaft seals are
internal and
the hurth has to be opened up. The transmission came back
with new
seals, was reinstalled and… there was still red fluid
leaking into
the engine pan.

My second assumption was that the hydraulics were leaking -
in fact I
knew they were, and I knew where. Originally, there was
solid copper
tubing going up the pedestal, then joined to what turned out
to be air
compressor hose in the engine compartment. It was leaking at
the
joint. I had used transmission fluid in the hydraulic
reservoir as a
stopgap on a cruise, and then when I got back I set about
getting new,
hydraulic-grade hoses made. While I was at it, I replaced
the
reservoir, which had a damaged filter unit in it. It took
about 3
weeks to find the right kind of 45 degree angle hydraulic
fittings to
get hose to fit down the edson pedestal, but the end result
was
extremely gratifying.

Except of course for the red fluid under the transmission. I
knew it
wasn’t the hydraulics because I’d replaced the fluid with
Hynautic
hydraulic oil, so I finally broke down and hired one of our
marina
mechanics to take a look. He thought it was transmission
fluid too,
until he realized… as I should have… that diesel is
colored red for
offroad use, and that’s what in fact had been leaking the
whole time.
He found that one of the injector pipes was slightly out of
alignment,
so it spurted diesel when the engine was under load. Never
had another
problem.

On Glory, we were on a tight schedule to get the boat to
Boston after
purchase. I had been down in Sakonnet working hard with
George to
finish commissioning systems, and on Saturday morning, I
started the
engine, just as he had told me. Vroom and much rejoicing…
nervous
optimism at being able to leave in a couple hours. I put the
engine
under light reverse load, just to feel it… and the engine
died. A
few more cranks and it was obvious it wasn’t going to start.
I looked
in the engine room and the racor was STUFFED with water. It
turned out
that the deck fill was open about 1/4 turn… all winter.

Fortunately, one of my friends back in Boston had just
started a fuel
polishing business. He came down and started polishing the
fuel and
cleaning the tank. One nice feature on the Freedom 45 fuel
tank is
that there is a sump and a good inspection port - it was
relatively
easy for him to vacuum out the gunk, and the water came out
of the
polishing. It may have been true years ago that fuel
polishing didn’t
really work that well, but the Algae-X setup he used was
extremely
effective. We were able to motor out of Brewer’s that
afternoon and
get ourselves to Cuttyhunk before the evening fell.

So we’ve done our first major winter project this past
weekend.
Without getting into arguments about the merits of diesel
vs. propane
heaters, we decided we needed to do something to supplement
the
electric heat we generally use in the winter time.
Eventually, we’ll
put in a diesel-fired hydronic system like the Hurricane,
but for now,
we just needed something to take off the chill - something
we could
use at the dock, on anchor, or underway if necessary, so we
decided on
the Newport Dickinson P-12000 direct-vent propane heater.
It’s rated
to 9700 BTU and I think will do a good job of taking the
edge off. It
burns 1lb/4 hours on high, which gives a 20 lb tank around
80 hours
(110 hours on the low setting). The stack is a double-wall,
with cold
air coming down the outer wall into the combustion chamber,
and
exhaust gases going up the inner stack. This means no air in
the boat
is burned. The problem was deciding where to put it.

We finally decided that from a venting and convenience
standpoint, the
unit would go on the bulkhead at the forward end of the
dining table.
While we lose a little bit of sitting comfort, there is
still enough
room to slide past the heater and sit at the table. The
sides of the
unit stay relatively cool, with only the front of the unit
becoming
extremely hot. We started on Saturday around 1 pm to install
the deck
cap, stack, and fireplace. To mount the unit, which comes
pre-installed on a stainless steel heat shield, I had to
drop the
mirror in the forward head. flat head machine screws were
pushed
through and stainless cap nuts in the salon make the
installation look
very sharp.

On sunday morning I started routing the propane line through
the
bilge, under the engine compartment, through the aft cabin
and into
the propane locker. It took about 3 hours, some swearing and
a moment
when I was pretty sure my arm would be permanently trapped
under the
galley floor, but it actually went a lot smoother than I
thought it
would. While we were at it, I put in a dual-stage, two
bottle
regulator and a new solenoid for the gas control. The unit
also has a
fan - the electric wires were run through the wall into the
head, up
over the ceiling panel, and into the distribution panel
inside the
medicine cabinet. Overall, a pretty tidy installation.

Before the Patriots game was over, we had our first fire in
the
fireplace - it looks good and does exactly what it was
intended to do.
Pictures in the Photos section.

Lance


Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
That is strange Michel, The idea of hard plumbing the regulator to the bottle sounds good on paper. But putting a pendulous weight at the end of a thin metal tube in an environment prone to vibration does not seem safe to me. Just my 2 pennies. Do you have access to the written standard? Maybe they have worked it out at an engineering level, i.e. over my nuts and bolts level of thinking. George— On Tue, 11/25/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Difference between US and EU views on safety issues and regs.To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 3:11
AM

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me again how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on top of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst hose at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a safety valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a big boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@ …> wrote:

Interesting discussion on Diesel - I’ll add my two experiences.

first about the red diesel. When I still had bright star, I was
getting a pool of red fluid under the transmission, which I thought,
because of its color, was… transmission fluid! I checked the level,
and it seemed to be right, but more fluid kept appearing, so I pulled
my transmission and had the seals serviced. For what it’s worth, on
the Hurth’s you can’t do this job yourself unless you happen to be a
diesel/transmission mechanic, because the shaft seals are internal and
the hurth has to be opened up. The transmission came back with new
seals, was reinstalled and… there was still red fluid leaking into
the engine pan.

My second assumption was that the hydraulics were leaking - in fact I
knew they were, and I knew where. Originally, there was solid copper
tubing going up the pedestal, then joined to what turned out to be air
compressor hose in the engine compartment. It was leaking at the
joint. I had used transmission fluid in the hydraulic reservoir as a
stopgap on a cruise, and then when I got back I set about getting new,
hydraulic-grade hoses made. While I was at it, I replaced the
reservoir, which had a damaged filter unit in it. It took about 3
weeks to find the right kind of 45 degree angle hydraulic fittings to
get hose to fit down the edson pedestal, but the end result was
extremely gratifying.

Except of course for the red fluid under the transmission. I knew it
wasn’t the hydraulics because I’d replaced the fluid with Hynautic
hydraulic oil, so I finally broke down and hired one of our marina
mechanics to take a look. He thought it was transmission fluid too,
until he realized… as I should have… that diesel is colored red for
offroad use, and that’s what in fact had been leaking the whole time.
He found that one of the injector pipes was slightly out of alignment,
so it spurted diesel when the engine was under load. Never had another
problem.

On Glory, we were on a tight schedule to get the boat to Boston after
purchase. I had been down in Sakonnet working hard with George to
finish commissioning systems, and on Saturday morning, I started the
engine, just as he had told me. Vroom and much rejoicing… nervous
optimism at being able to leave in a couple hours. I put the engine
under light reverse load, just to feel it… and the engine died. A
few more cranks and it was obvious it wasn’t going to start. I looked
in the engine room and the racor was STUFFED with water. It turned out
that the deck fill was open about 1/4 turn… all winter.

Fortunately, one of my friends back in Boston had just started a fuel
polishing business. He came down and started polishing the fuel and
cleaning the tank. One nice feature on the Freedom 45 fuel tank is
that there is a sump and a good inspection port - it was relatively
easy for him to vacuum out the gunk, and the water came out of the
polishing. It may have been true years ago that fuel polishing didn’t
really work that well, but the Algae-X setup he used was extremely
effective. We were able to motor out of Brewer’s that afternoon and
get ourselves to Cuttyhunk before the evening fell.

So we’ve done our first major winter project this past weekend.
Without getting into arguments about the merits of diesel vs. propane
heaters, we decided we needed to do something to supplement the
electric heat we generally use in the winter time. Eventually, we’ll
put in a diesel-fired hydronic system like the Hurricane, but for now,
we just needed something to take off the chill - something we could
use at the dock, on anchor, or underway if necessary, so we decided on
the Newport Dickinson P-12000 direct-vent propane heater. It’s rated
to 9700 BTU and I think will do a good job of taking the edge off. It
burns 1lb/4 hours on high, which gives a 20 lb tank around 80 hours
(110 hours on the low setting). The stack is a double-wall, with cold
air coming down the outer wall into the combustion chamber, and
exhaust gases going up the inner stack. This means no air in the boat
is burned. The problem was deciding where to put it.

We finally decided that from a venting and convenience standpoint, the
unit would go on the bulkhead at the forward end of the dining table.
While we lose a little bit of sitting comfort, there is still enough
room to slide past the heater and sit at the table. The sides of the
unit stay relatively cool, with only the front of the unit becoming
extremely hot. We started on Saturday around 1 pm to install the deck
cap, stack, and fireplace. To mount the unit, which comes
pre-installed on a stainless steel heat shield, I had to drop the
mirror in the forward head. flat head machine screws were pushed
through and stainless cap nuts in the salon make the installation look
very sharp.

On sunday morning I started routing the propane line through the
bilge, under the engine compartment, through the aft cabin and into
the propane locker. It took about 3 hours, some swearing and a moment
when I was pretty sure my arm would be permanently trapped under the
galley floor, but it actually went a lot smoother than I thought it
would. While we were at it, I put in a dual-stage, two bottle
regulator and a new solenoid for the gas control. The unit also has a
fan - the electric wires were run through the wall into the head, up
over the ceiling panel, and into the distribution panel inside the
medicine cabinet. Overall, a pretty tidy installation.

Before the Patriots game was over, we had our first fire in the
fireplace - it looks good and does exactly what it was intended to do.
Pictures in the Photos section.

Lance



\

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

That is interesting, Michel. I can see where a bottle-mounted
regulator would be a good thing. I guess one thing that’s important to
note is that the hose from the bottle to the regulator is rated for
350 PSI, and the bottles are usually 100 or less. Since the locker is
closed to weather, there’s not much chance of UV degredation, although
inspecting the hoses is always a good thing.

As an FYI, at least in the states, the hose that goes from the
regulator to the appliance is ALSO rated at 350 (or 300 - can’t
remember exactly) PSI, despite the fact that the regulator brings the
pressure down to around 0.5 PSI. That’s a hell of a safety margin, and
I don’t think I’d have it any other way.

There are a couple advantages to the solenoid. Mine’s connected to an
S-2A propane detector, so if there’s a leak in the cabin, it will
automatically shut off the fuel. I can use the S-2A to turn off the
burners to the stove and fireplace with the burners lit so any
residual gas is burned out of the lines. And in a complete emergency,
I can hit the Propane breaker at the electrical panel and shut down
the gas. Considering the location of the locker, that is a much faster
procedure than running out the companionway, opening the locker, and
twisting the bottle shut. The detector/solenoid options are relatively
cheap in comparison to a fire-gutted boat :wink:

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me again how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on top of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst hose at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a safety valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a big boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

And the other thing is… on a two-bottle system, a bottle-mounted
regulator means two regulators and some form of valving to switch
between the two on the low pressure side. A low pressure leak in this
valving could easily go undetected allowing the bottle to empty.

Buying one two bottle regulator & bulkhead mounting it makes sense to
me. The cost of the second regulator can go toward paying for the
solenoid, which is not a “luxury” in my book.

Assuming that you don’t just leave the propane tank valve open all
the time, if you have a high pressure leak, it will be likely to
happen (murphy notwithstanding) when you open the tank valve anyway,
at which point you just close it. Since I only use mine for cooking
(and not a lot of that), I always turn off the stove by turning off
the bottle valve and letting the flame burn out, then closing the
solenoid and stove burner valve.

If you develop a high pressure propane leak, you likely won’t still
be getting enough gas on the low pressure side to support a flame,
and if you’re on the boat, you’ll likely HEAR it, and any propane
that leaks is then going to leak ONLY into the propane locker (which
vents overboard through the cockpit scupper holes which terminate in
the propane locker under the helm seat on my boat). I would never
consider going off and leaving the boat while the bottle valve was
open, but then again, in Corpus Christ, our winter is usually on a
Thursday, so maintaining a warm cabin is not a high priority.

My two-bottle system was factory built with a single bottle bulkhead
mounted regulator and hard-plumbed with copper to a selector valve on
the high pressure side of the regulator. If you run out of gas during
a meal, you just close the valve on the empty bottle, flip the valve
& open the valve on the full bottle, then keep on cooking. You can
swap out (or go off and refill) the empty bottle without losing the
ability to use propane in the meanwhile, which might be a good thing
if one were heating (as well as cooking) with gas.

The regulator is less likely to suffer damage if you aren’t
repeatedly removing/replacing it every time you disconnect a bottle.

I like Lance’s two-bottle regulator …it has dual pressure gauges
for one thing, and the selector valve and related (three) connections
(on mine) are a potential failure point on the high pressure side as
well.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@…> wrote:

That is interesting, Michel. I can see where a bottle-mounted
regulator would be a good thing. I guess one thing that’s important
to
note is that the hose from the bottle to the regulator is rated for
350 PSI, and the bottles are usually 100 or less. Since the locker
is
closed to weather, there’s not much chance of UV degredation,
although
inspecting the hoses is always a good thing.

As an FYI, at least in the states, the hose that goes from the
regulator to the appliance is ALSO rated at 350 (or 300 - can’t
remember exactly) PSI, despite the fact that the regulator brings
the
pressure down to around 0.5 PSI. That’s a hell of a safety margin,
and
I don’t think I’d have it any other way.

There are a couple advantages to the solenoid. Mine’s connected to
an
S-2A propane detector, so if there’s a leak in the cabin, it will
automatically shut off the fuel. I can use the S-2A to turn off the
burners to the stove and fireplace with the burners lit so any
residual gas is burned out of the lines. And in a complete
emergency,
I can hit the Propane breaker at the electrical panel and shut down
the gas. Considering the location of the locker, that is a much
faster
procedure than running out the companionway, opening the locker, and
twisting the bottle shut. The detector/solenoid options are
relatively
cheap in comparison to a fire-gutted boat :wink:

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me again
how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane
regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also
necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on top
of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst hose
at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar
pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a safety
valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a big
boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

It’s not that I don’t see the pro’s of the US approach to plumbing
propane, it’s just that - well - you can look at it in different ways
and the EU ways are not necessarily my ways but the ways of the
technology standards developers.

I agree that in the EU they regulate like rabbits. My US coastguard
approved F44 is illegal here and officials say on the record that I
will never be able to sell the boat here because of the lack of a
CE-certification and marking. Off the record they say that it’s an
able and seaworthy boat, and nobody will enforce the rule. And if a
prospective buyer likes the boat as much as I do, they’ll buy it
nonetheless. Some officials try to scare me and say that I will be
dragged out of French harbours because the CE-marking lacks. We’ll
see…

Since my boat came over from the USA, I now have a mixed US - EU
propane system. Only one bottle connected, pressure regulator on the
bottle, bottle valve always open, solenoid valve bulkhead mounted at
the end of a short piece of propane hose (replacement every two years
obligatory, hose is date-stamped) and from the solenoid valve copper
pipe to the oven. There is another short piece of date-stamped propane
hose at that end.



— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “katorpus” <jrb@…> wrote:

And the other thing is… on a two-bottle system, a bottle-mounted
regulator means two regulators and some form of valving to switch
between the two on the low pressure side. A low pressure leak in this
valving could easily go undetected allowing the bottle to empty.

Buying one two bottle regulator & bulkhead mounting it makes sense to
me. The cost of the second regulator can go toward paying for the
solenoid, which is not a “luxury” in my book.

Assuming that you don’t just leave the propane tank valve open all
the time, if you have a high pressure leak, it will be likely to
happen (murphy notwithstanding) when you open the tank valve anyway,
at which point you just close it. Since I only use mine for cooking
(and not a lot of that), I always turn off the stove by turning off
the bottle valve and letting the flame burn out, then closing the
solenoid and stove burner valve.

If you develop a high pressure propane leak, you likely won’t still
be getting enough gas on the low pressure side to support a flame,
and if you’re on the boat, you’ll likely HEAR it, and any propane
that leaks is then going to leak ONLY into the propane locker (which
vents overboard through the cockpit scupper holes which terminate in
the propane locker under the helm seat on my boat). I would never
consider going off and leaving the boat while the bottle valve was
open, but then again, in Corpus Christ, our winter is usually on a
Thursday, so maintaining a warm cabin is not a high priority.

My two-bottle system was factory built with a single bottle bulkhead
mounted regulator and hard-plumbed with copper to a selector valve on
the high pressure side of the regulator. If you run out of gas during
a meal, you just close the valve on the empty bottle, flip the valve
& open the valve on the full bottle, then keep on cooking. You can
swap out (or go off and refill) the empty bottle without losing the
ability to use propane in the meanwhile, which might be a good thing
if one were heating (as well as cooking) with gas.

The regulator is less likely to suffer damage if you aren’t
repeatedly removing/replacing it every time you disconnect a bottle.

I like Lance’s two-bottle regulator …it has dual pressure gauges
for one thing, and the selector valve and related (three) connections
(on mine) are a potential failure point on the high pressure side as
well.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@> wrote:

That is interesting, Michel. I can see where a bottle-mounted
regulator would be a good thing. I guess one thing that’s important
to
note is that the hose from the bottle to the regulator is rated for
350 PSI, and the bottles are usually 100 or less. Since the locker
is
closed to weather, there’s not much chance of UV degredation,
although
inspecting the hoses is always a good thing.

As an FYI, at least in the states, the hose that goes from the
regulator to the appliance is ALSO rated at 350 (or 300 - can’t
remember exactly) PSI, despite the fact that the regulator brings
the
pressure down to around 0.5 PSI. That’s a hell of a safety margin,
and
I don’t think I’d have it any other way.

There are a couple advantages to the solenoid. Mine’s connected to
an
S-2A propane detector, so if there’s a leak in the cabin, it will
automatically shut off the fuel. I can use the S-2A to turn off the
burners to the stove and fireplace with the burners lit so any
residual gas is burned out of the lines. And in a complete
emergency,
I can hit the Propane breaker at the electrical panel and shut down
the gas. Considering the location of the locker, that is a much
faster
procedure than running out the companionway, opening the locker, and
twisting the bottle shut. The detector/solenoid options are
relatively
cheap in comparison to a fire-gutted boat :wink:

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

Lance,

Nice setup, the Dickinson.
Looking at the photo of your propane locker it strikes me again
how
different the US and Europe look at (propane) safety. In the US, I
heard, it’s customary or even obligated to have the propane
regulator
mounted on a bulkhead. A solenoid shut off valve is also
necessary.

In Europe however, the regulator has always to be directly on top
of
the bottle, so as to prevent propane exiting through a burst hose
at
full bottle pressure. When our hoses go, it’s only 30 Mbar
pressure
released by the regulator on the bottle, which also has a safety
valve
that will shut it off completely after a while.

That short piece of hose between bottle and regulator seems like a
very dangerous thing to us. If it bursts, the whole bottle empties
under full pressure…

On the other hand, in Europe, a solenoid valve is seen as a big
boat
luxury thing that is not at all necessary under our regulations.

Odd, isn’t it, these different views towards safely.

Michel

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Michel,
is date-stamped hose an EU thing? I don’t think I’ve ever come across
it in the states.

As to the CE marking, wow. A brief reading through some of the online
sites make it pretty clear that CE marks could be a great source of
government revenue. I can only imagine that there’s quite a number of
‘illegal’ vessels out there now.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

It’s not that I don’t see the pro’s of the US approach to plumbing
propane, it’s just that - well - you can look at it in different ways
and the EU ways are not necessarily my ways but the ways of the
technology standards developers.

I agree that in the EU they regulate like rabbits. My US coastguard
approved F44 is illegal here and officials say on the record that I
will never be able to sell the boat here because of the lack of a
CE-certification and marking. Off the record they say that it’s an
able and seaworthy boat, and nobody will enforce the rule. And if a
prospective buyer likes the boat as much as I do, they’ll buy it
nonetheless. Some officials try to scare me and say that I will be
dragged out of French harbours because the CE-marking lacks. We’ll
see…

Since my boat came over from the USA, I now have a mixed US - EU
propane system. Only one bottle connected, pressure regulator on the
bottle, bottle valve always open, solenoid valve bulkhead mounted at
the end of a short piece of propane hose (replacement every two years
obligatory, hose is date-stamped) and from the solenoid valve copper
pipe to the oven. There is another short piece of date-stamped propane
hose at that end.

Posted by Al Lorman (ajl@…>)


Lance:

I’ve
seen date stamps on US propane and fuel lines. That’s how I knew the
hoses on my former F30 were original.

Al



From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lance_ryley
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:05 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Difference between US and EU views on
safety issues and regs.

\




Michel,
is date-stamped hose an EU thing? I don’t think I’ve ever come across
it in the states.

As to the CE marking, wow. A brief reading through some of the online
sites make it pretty clear that CE marks could be a great source of
government revenue. I can only imagine that there’s quite a number of
‘illegal’ vessels out there now.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

It’s not that I don’t see the pro’s of the US approach to plumbing
propane, it’s just that - well - you can look at it in different ways
and the EU ways are not necessarily my ways but the ways of the
technology standards developers.

I agree that in the EU they regulate like rabbits. My US coastguard
approved F44 is illegal here and officials say on the record that I
will never be able to sell the boat here because of the lack of a
CE-certification and marking. Off the record they say that it’s an
able and seaworthy boat, and nobody will enforce the rule. And if a
prospective buyer likes the boat as much as I do, they’ll buy it
nonetheless. Some officials try to scare me and say that I will be
dragged out of French harbours because the CE-marking lacks. We’ll
see…

Since my boat came over from the USA, I now have a mixed US - EU
propane system. Only one bottle connected, pressure regulator on the
bottle, bottle valve always open, solenoid valve bulkhead mounted at
the end of a short piece of propane hose (replacement every two years
obligatory, hose is date-stamped) and from the solenoid valve copper
pipe to the oven. There is another short piece of date-stamped propane
hose at that end.


\

Posted by Dwight Escalera (descalera1@…>)
The fuel hose marking requirements for US built boats are Federal Law as specified in 33CFR183.540.f. The required info includes hose type, manufacturer, and mfg date. Markings must be legible, in English, on the outside of the hose, every 12". Dwight EscaleraF36-71Wakefield, RIOn Dec 1, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Al Lorman wrote:Lance: I’ve seen date stamps on US propane and fuel lines. That’s how I knew the hoses on my former F30 were original. Al From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lance_ryleySent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:05 AMTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSubject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Difference between US and EU views on safety issues and regs. Michel,is date-stamped hose an EU thing? I don’t think I’ve ever come acrossit in the states. As to the CE marking, wow. A brief reading through some of the onlinesites make it pretty clear that CE marks could be a great source ofgovernment revenue. I can only imagine that there’s quite a number of’illegal’ vessels out there now.Lance— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”<michel.capel@…> wrote:>> It’s not that I don’t see the pro’s of the US approach to plumbing> propane, it’s just that - well - you can look at it in different ways> and the EU ways are not necessarily my ways but the ways of the> technology standards developers. > > I agree that in the EU they regulate like rabbits. My US coastguard> approved F44 is illegal here and officials say on the record that I> will never be able to sell the boat here because of the lack of a> CE-certification and marking. Off the record they say that it’s an> able and seaworthy boat, and nobody will enforce the rule. And if a> prospective buyer likes the boat as much as I do, they’ll buy it> nonetheless. Some officials try to scare me and say that I will be> dragged out of French harbours because the CE-marking lacks. We’ll> see… > > Since my boat came over from the USA, I now have a mixed US - EU> propane system. Only one bottle connected, pressure regulator on the> bottle, bottle valve always open, solenoid valve bulkhead mounted at> the end of a short piece of propane hose (replacement every two years> obligatory, hose is date-stamped) and from the solenoid valve copper> pipe to the oven. There is another short piece of date-stamped propane> hose at that end.

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

If you’re not familiar with datestamped hose, it must be something
from this side of the ocean.


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Al Lorman” <ajl@…> wrote:

Lance:

I’ve seen date stamps on US propane and fuel lines. That’s how I
knew the
hoses on my former F30 were original.

Al

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lance_ryley
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 9:05 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Difference between US and EU views on
safety issues and regs.

Michel,
is date-stamped hose an EU thing? I don’t think I’ve ever come across
it in the states.

As to the CE marking, wow. A brief reading through some of the online
sites make it pretty clear that CE marks could be a great source of
government revenue. I can only imagine that there’s quite a number of
‘illegal’ vessels out there now.

Lance

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.com , “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@> wrote:

It’s not that I don’t see the pro’s of the US approach to plumbing
propane, it’s just that - well - you can look at it in different ways
and the EU ways are not necessarily my ways but the ways of the
technology standards developers.

I agree that in the EU they regulate like rabbits. My US coastguard
approved F44 is illegal here and officials say on the record that I
will never be able to sell the boat here because of the lack of a
CE-certification and marking. Off the record they say that it’s an
able and seaworthy boat, and nobody will enforce the rule. And if a
prospective buyer likes the boat as much as I do, they’ll buy it
nonetheless. Some officials try to scare me and say that I will be
dragged out of French harbours because the CE-marking lacks. We’ll
see…

Since my boat came over from the USA, I now have a mixed US - EU
propane system. Only one bottle connected, pressure regulator on the
bottle, bottle valve always open, solenoid valve bulkhead mounted at
the end of a short piece of propane hose (replacement every two years
obligatory, hose is date-stamped) and from the solenoid valve copper
pipe to the oven. There is another short piece of date-stamped propane
hose at that end.