I own a 1986 36/38 Freedom sloop and sail in the Caribbean. As aging
progresses (now 73) raising the main the full 55 ft is getting to be
more and more of a problem, especially when multiple gales hit with a
requirement for repeated reefing and restoring. This year I added a
12 inch winch handle and it was a substantial help, made even better
by using SailKote on the cars and track. Nevertheless, we have
decided to go one step further and replace one of our two Barient
winches with an electric winch.
Any advice as to selection of a self-tailing electric winch? We plan
to replace the winch closest to our companionway and are a little
concerned with projection of the motor down into the aft berth,
perhaps requiring that we modify the door (or not as it is rarely
used). In addition to brand (e.g. Lewmar, Anderson, Harken), what are
the advantages and disadvantages of one vs. two speed and conventional
vs. above deck vs. below deck versions?
Rees
I have a 1988 36/38 with a Harken electric winch in the location you
are thinking about. It works well and does not adversely effect the
closing of the door in the aft cabin even with the enclosure
surrounding the below deck motor that was fashioned for it. It is two
speed.
I own a 1986 36/38 Freedom sloop and sail in the Caribbean. As aging
progresses (now 73) raising the main the full 55 ft is getting to be
more and more of a problem, especially when multiple gales hit with a
requirement for repeated reefing and restoring. This year I added a
12 inch winch handle and it was a substantial help, made even better
by using SailKote on the cars and track. Nevertheless, we have
decided to go one step further and replace one of our two Barient
winches with an electric winch.
Any advice as to selection of a self-tailing electric winch? We plan
to replace the winch closest to our companionway and are a little
concerned with projection of the motor down into the aft berth,
perhaps requiring that we modify the door (or not as it is rarely
used). In addition to brand (e.g. Lewmar, Anderson, Harken), what are
the advantages and disadvantages of one vs. two speed and conventional
vs. above deck vs. below deck versions?
Check out a WinchBit with Milwaukee “D” handle electric “hole hog” drill motor. Runs on it’s own 18 volt battery, or do as I did and replace the battery with an empty battery shell and run it off of the 12 volt house battery. Far less expensive than either an electric winch or even the “electric winch handle” available. The torque rating is the same or greater than a $3000 electric winch handle for far less money. I use ours to hoist a heavy tanbark cruising sail, so if you have a lighter sale it will work like a champ!
Posted by Sward (swardfullsail@…>)
Bill, How did you do that wiring with your drill? I was helping to haul someone up a mast yesterday and the drills battery died right in the middle of the guy on the mast!!! Your solution should help alleviate that problem. Where could I get a blank battery box without destroying the good one that I have? Bill Williams <escbill@…> wrote: Check out a WinchBit with Milwaukee “D” handle electric “hole hog” drill motor. Runs on it’s own 18 volt battery, or do as I did and replace the battery with an empty battery shell and run it off of the 12 volt house battery. Far less expensive than either an electric winch or even the “electric winch handle” available. The torque rating is the same or greater than a $3000 electric winch handle for far less money. I use ours to hoist a heavy tanbark cruising sail, so if you have a lighter sale it will work like a champ! Bill “Aurora” “Life is a Reach, then you Jibe” SWARD
Posted by jlittle@… (jlittle@…)
I agree with Bill’s response. You could look up my input on the old site #7726 which gives a little more detail. My referenced converter [not inverter] is available on the net. Also since I purchased the 18V Milwaukee they have come out with a 24V model. I think the 18V has been discontinued.
Another tip I learned from a sailmaker years ago was to use dishwashing liquid from a small spray bottle on the sail slides and lower track. Use it every couple of days use. The rain washes it and dirt away and there is no buildup as with some of the store bought, expensive sprays.
John
WINK----- Original Message -----From: Rees Midgley Date: Sunday, April 6, 2008 11:47 pmSubject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Electric winchTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com> I own a 1986 36/38 Freedom sloop and sail in the Caribbean. As > aging > progresses (now 73) raising the main the full 55 ft is getting > to be > more and more of a problem, especially when multiple gales hit > with a > requirement for repeated reefing and restoring. This year I > added a > 12 inch winch handle and it was a substantial help, made even > better > by using SailKote on the cars and track. Nevertheless, we have > decided to go one step further and replace one of our two > Barient > winches with an electric winch.> > Any advice as to selection of a self-tailing electric winch? We > plan > to replace the winch closest to our companionway and are a > little > concerned with projection of the motor down into the aft berth, > perhaps requiring that we modify the door (or not as it is > rarely > used). In addition to brand (e.g. Lewmar, Anderson, Harken), > what are > the advantages and disadvantages of one vs. two speed and > conventional > vs. above deck vs. below deck versions?> > - Rees>
I use the winchbit at www.WinchBit.com. A simple part, but high quality and frankly worth the price. The engineer makes them and has all the info on various drill motors on his web site. I drive mine with the top of the line drill - a very nice and powerful Milwaukee portable drill motor - the 28 volt model #0721 Rt angle drill. Has a reversible variable speed for H/L on the 2 speed winch and full torque at very low RPM. You absolutely will not lack for power. The battery lasts a long time & seems to be good for at least a dozen or more raising and lowering, but I got a spare battery anyway. In fact, the same V28 battery also drives a handheld Milwaukee spotlight which is so handy it gets more use than the power winchbit does. Doing it this way is the Cadillac solution and not inexpensive - but first class. Makes you feel good about good 'ol USA tool quality. I originally considered going with an all-electric winch, but after a couple of years of use this seems to be a better solution. And of course you have a nice drill for any necessary uses onboard.
Some notes: The drill reverses and that enables it to drive the H/L on the 2 speed winch self-tailing winch. BUT, since drill chucks are typically held onto the drill motor shaft with a taper lock and a LH screw…on mine the screw was not tight enough and it backed out. No damage & reinstalled the chuck with loctite on the screw and a resolution not to “hotrod” the drill quite so hard . No problems since. That might have been my own doing as it was so much fun to watch the main ZIP up the mast that I confess to overdoing it…
Downside to the winchbit is that if it loosens in the chuck it could fall out and bounce overboard for a floatation check…a test which it would surely fail. To prevent that - or at least slow it down - I wrapped a turn of rigging tape over the exposed shank of the winchbit and up around the nose of the chuck. A sloppy solution which works…though I’d like to find something more elegant. I’ll copy the winchbit people with this post; maybe they know a better solution.
Only other trick is if your winch has a deep broach. If so, bet the proper size garden hose washer and put it on the shank of the winchbit before mounting it in the chuck. That protects the polished top of the winch from being scarred by the gripping fingers of the drill chuck.
No, I don’t have any connection with the winchbit people. In fact, I was hesitant to spend the dollars for the system and am now so convinced I’m thinking of getting a spare winchbit “just in case”.
Hope this helps, Roger, F28cc - not a Freedom; its a Farrier tri.
Any tool center that recycles batteries should be a good source. I got mine from Tool Mart here in the San Diego area. Opened up the case, removed the batteries, and with JB weld and some heavy stranded household rubber covered wire, made the "adapter."
Re. the use of the Milwaukee drill, I actually bought one at the
Newport boat show called a Cinch Winch (the company is now out of
business). I had the problems mentioned with the battery dying but
the root problem may have been with my battery charger. Regardless, I
wound up buying a 12 to 18 volt converter, discarded the guts of the
Milwaukee battery, and hard-wired the drill to the batteries (via a
circuit breaker).
My primary complaint was the need to bring a heavy drill into the
cockpit, along with lengths of wire, and then having to insert the
drill into the winch. This works fairly well for raising the main, or
for finishing the task. However, my 18 volt drill struggled with the
last few feet.
The real problem is that dealing with the wires and drill complicates
all the messiness of the cockpit with its halyards, sheets, and
traveler lines. The temptation is strong to put the drill etc. away
but then all subsequent use of the winch is manual. If a reef has to
be shaken out in a rough sea, trying to bring back the heavy drill is
not a chosen option. A full-time electric winch can be far superior.
The question remains, which one?
Which electric winch depends greatly on your pocket book…they start at around $3000 and go up from there. Then there’s the loss of overhead from the drive mechanism. A drill motor and WinchBit for under $400 can go a very long way toward an electric winch.
Anderson has a line of electric winches without below decks parts
(except the wire and solenoid). The winch motor is placed inside and
directly below the winch drum in a 2" high cylinder. Very nice
concept. They are mighty expensive though.
Lewmar has a line of electric winches with both 90* and 180* angled
motor positions, so you could have a choice of mounting options.
I own a 1986 36/38 Freedom sloop and sail in the Caribbean. As
aging
progresses (now 73) raising the main the full 55 ft is getting to
be
more and more of a problem, especially when multiple gales hit
with a
requirement for repeated reefing and restoring. This year I added
a
12 inch winch handle and it was a substantial help, made even
better
by using SailKote on the cars and track. Nevertheless, we have
decided to go one step further and replace one of our two Barient
winches with an electric winch.
Any advice as to selection of a self-tailing electric winch? We
plan
to replace the winch closest to our companionway and are a little
concerned with projection of the motor down into the aft berth,
perhaps requiring that we modify the door (or not as it is rarely
used). In addition to brand (e.g. Lewmar, Anderson, Harken), what
are
the advantages and disadvantages of one vs. two speed and
conventional
vs. above deck vs. below deck versions?
Did you have a 12 volt tool? Its been a long time since my Navy days…but this should be good only for the 12V tool. Right? The others 18 or 24V you would have to have some kind of step-up?
Any tool center that recycles batteries should be a good source. I got mine from Tool Mart here in the San Diego area. Opened up the case, removed the batteries, and with JB weld and some heavy stranded household rubber covered wire, made the "adapter."
Posted by Rees Midgley (rmidgley@…>)
Hi Bob,I used the 18 volt drill not 12 or 24 volt. Another problem may be the sheer height of the mast on the 36/38. It is a real struggle to get the sail all the way to the top, even with a 12 inch winch handle, new cars, new halyard, and Sail Kote on the cars and track.The drill has the ability to be used in forward and reverse directions. One time, the left-handed thread screw holding the chuck when in reverse broke as I was about 3 ft from the top. Fortunately, I was able to replace it, but the other problems with wires and a fairly heavy drill in the cockpit when seas are rough is the incentive for me to put out some real money. We were on one race from Frenchman’s Cay to Pelican Island, around Flanagan and back. During the race we encountered four gales, three of which reached 30 knots with winds in between of 8 to 10 knots. We spent most of the time reefing or shaking out the reefs. An electric winch would have been a blessing. Now an FYI: Winds down here this year in Tortola, BVI, have been amazing all winter. This has not been a typical winter with sunny skies, turquoise water, and 10-15 knot winds. Easter brought 15-20 ft seas and the BVI Spring Regatta last weekend (I did not enter) was held with fairly steady 25 to 30 or even 35 knot winds with 8 to 10 ft seas. One experienced sailor hired on as crew was caught in a line, whipped over the side like a doll and then whipped back on board where he hit his head on the boom and then on the deck. He broke his neck in two places and may now be a quadriplegic. Many reports came in of broken bones.Three photos are attached. - ReesOn Apr 8, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Bob Weeks wrote:Did you have a 12 volt tool? Its been a long time since my Navy days…but this should be good only for the 12V tool. Right? The others 18 or 24V you would have to have some kind of step-up? BobFrom: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill WilliamsSent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:57 PMTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Electric winchEmpty 18 volt Battery: Any tool center that recycles batteries should be a good source. I got mine from Tool Mart here in the San Diego area. Opened up the case, removed the batteries, and with JB weld and some heavy stranded household rubber covered wire, made the “adapter.”
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The Milwaukee “D” handle hole hog tool I have uses an 18 volt battery. Since you normally do not use the tool at full speed anyway, it will work nicely on 12 volts DC. It would be nice to have a voltage step-up device, but the ones that will provide the current necessary cost more than I wanted to spend.
Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Hey Rees,Those are great pictures! ThanksI had my first chance to experience the Virgin Islands on a delivery from Marsh Harbor to St Thomas. Wonderful. GeorgeRees Midgley <rmidgley@…> wrote: Hi Bob,I used the 18 volt drill not 12 or 24 volt. Another problem may be the sheer height of the mast on the 36/38. It is a real struggle to get the sail all the way to the top, even with a 12 inch winch handle, new cars, new halyard, and Sail Kote on the cars and track.The drill has the ability to be used in forward and reverse directions. One time, the left-handed thread screw holding the chuck when in reverse broke as I was about 3 ft from the top. Fortunately, I was able to replace it, but the other problems with wires and a fairly heavy
drill in the cockpit when seas are rough is the incentive for me to put out some real money.We were on one race from Frenchman’s Cay to Pelican Island, around Flanagan and back. During the race we encountered four gales, three of which reached 30 knots with winds in between of 8 to 10 knots. We spent most of the time reefing or shaking out the reefs. An electric winch would have been a blessing.Now an FYI: Winds down here this year in Tortola, BVI, have been amazing all winter. This has not been a typical winter with sunny skies, turquoise water, and 10-15 knot winds. Easter brought 15-20 ft seas and the BVI Spring Regatta last weekend (I did not enter) was held with fairly steady 25 to 30 or even 35 knot winds with 8 to 10 ft seas. One experienced sailor hired on as crew was caught in a line, whipped over the side like a doll and then whipped back on board where he hit his head on the boom
and then on the deck. He broke his neck in two places and may now be a quadriplegic. Many reports came in of broken bones.Three photos are attached. - ReesOn Apr 8, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Bob Weeks wrote:Did you have a 12 volt tool? Its been a long time since my Navy days…but this should be good only for the 12V tool. Right? The others 18 or 24V you would have to have some kind of step-up?BobFrom: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bill WilliamsSent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:57 PMTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Electric winchEmpty 18 volt Battery: Any tool center that recycles batteries should be a good source. I got mine from Tool Mart here in the San Diego area. Opened up the case, removed the batteries, and with JB weld and some
heavy stranded household rubber covered wire, made the “adapter.” __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Posted by Rees Midgley (rmidgley@…>)
Sorry for the delay, Brien, I just returned to Ann Arbor from the BVI.I most appreciate your helpful information. Can you tell me if the winch is the one with the 90 degree angled motor or the one that runs straight down? Might you have a photo you could send? If you ever get to the BVI, please consider stopping in for coffee and/or going out on our boat. - ReesOn Apr 7, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Brien wrote:ReesI have a 1988 36/38 with a Harken electric winch in the location youare thinking about. It works well and does not adversely effect theclosing of the door in the aft cabin even with the enclosuresurrounding the below deck motor that was fashioned for it. It is twospeed.Brien— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Rees Midgley <rmidgley@…>wrote:>> I own a 1986 36/38 Freedom sloop and sail in the Caribbean. As aging > progresses (now 73) raising the main the full 55 ft is getting to be > more and more of a problem, especially when multiple gales hit with a > requirement for repeated reefing and restoring. This year I added a > 12 inch winch handle and it was a substantial help, made even better > by using SailKote on the cars and track. Nevertheless, we have > decided to go one step further and replace one of our two Barient > winches with an electric winch.> > Any advice as to selection of a self-tailing electric winch? We plan > to replace the winch closest to our companionway and are a little > concerned with projection of the motor down into the aft berth, > perhaps requiring that we modify the door (or not as it is rarely > used). In addition to brand (e.g. Lewmar, Anderson, Harken), what are > the advantages and disadvantages of one vs. two speed and conventional > vs. above deck vs. below deck versions?> > - Rees>
Posted by Brien Barnewolt (bbarnewolt@…>)
Hi Rees-I will be on the boat this weekend and will take some photos for you.We were just in the BVI mid Feb- great winds. Any chance you have one of the Freedoms in Soper’s Hole?Brien
On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Rees Midgley <rmidgley@…> wrote:
Sorry for the delay, Brien, I just returned to Ann Arbor from the BVI.I most appreciate your helpful information. Can you tell me if the winch is the one with the 90 degree angled motor or the one that runs straight down? Might you have a photo you could send? If you ever get to the BVI, please consider stopping in for coffee and/or going out on our boat.
ReesOn Apr 7, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Brien wrote:
ReesI have a 1988 36/38 with a Harken electric winch in the location youare thinking about. It works well and does not adversely effect the
closing of the door in the aft cabin even with the enclosuresurrounding the below deck motor that was fashioned for it. It is twospeed.Brien-
Posted by Rees Midgley (rmidgley@…>)
Yep, Soper’s Hole it is – right across from the Jolly Roger. We get help with maintenance from Bill and Georgia Schroer on a Freedom Ketch docked in the Sheperd’s Marina just beyond Pussers. They each worked for 15 years building Freedoms and built our boat. They service a number of Freedoms. - ReesOn Apr 11, 2008, at 5:49 PM, Brien Barnewolt wrote:Hi Rees-I will be on the boat this weekend and will take some photos for you.We were just in the BVI mid Feb- great winds. Any chance you have one of the Freedoms in Soper’s Hole?BrienOn Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Rees Midgley <rmidgley@umich.edu> wrote:Sorry for the delay, Brien, I just returned to Ann Arbor from the BVI.I most appreciate your helpful information. Can you tell me if the winch is the one with the 90 degree angled motor or the one that runs straight down? Might you have a photo you could send? If you ever get to the BVI, please consider stopping in for coffee and/or going out on our boat. - ReesOn Apr 7, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Brien wrote:ReesI have a 1988 36/38 with a Harken electric winch in the location youare thinking about. It works well and does not adversely effect theclosing of the door in the aft cabin even with the enclosuresurrounding the below deck motor that was fashioned for it. It is twospeed.Brien-