Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)
My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of
straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now that
I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are
visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct
positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered and
tied together on an off panel buss.
Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground
buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells me
this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
Posted by Jay Whittle (whittle@…>)
It’s fine, don’t disconnect it.
Part of the bonding system to prevent damage to vessel and occupants.
Quoting macks011 <macks04@…>:
My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of
straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now that
I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are
visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct
positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered and
tied together on an off panel buss.
Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground
buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells me
this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
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Jay Whittle
80 Buffinton St.
Fall River, Ma
USA 02721
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Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
According to Don Casey’s book, the green wire should go directly from
the onboard AC outlet to the grounding bolt on the engine. You may
also want to consider a galvanic isolator.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@o…>
wrote:
My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of
straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now
that
I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are
visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct
positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered
and
tied together on an off panel buss.
Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground
buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells
me
this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
Posted by Paul McFadden (pwhitmac@…>)
If you’re talking about the (typically) green a/c “chassis ground” wire, you are definitely correct to feel that it’s not right. Your whole a/c system should be isolated from the d/c system. The green wires from your various a/c appliances should be terminated on a buss bar, or the like. The green wire from your a/c shore plug on the boat should also be terminated on that green wire buse/bundle. The object is to get a/c on and off the boat without terminating it into anything except the appliances that it serves. It’s also a very good idea to install a galvanic isolator on the green wire as close to the shore power plug (below decks) as possible. In the final analysis, the shore power provides the power and the green grounding. If you aren’t sure about your shore plug, meter it. PWMmacks011 <macks04@…> wrote: My
electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now that I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered and tied together on an off panel buss.Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells me this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
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Posted by John Lund (frihet02@…>)
I’m told that current ABYC standards require the AC ground and the DC ground be connected together. Is this true? Any advice from Freedom?Paul McFadden <pwhitmac@…> wrote: If you’re talking about the (typically) green a/c “chassis ground” wire, you are definitely correct to feel that it’s not right. Your whole a/c system should be isolated from the d/c system. The green wires from your various a/c appliances should be terminated on a buss bar, or the like. The green wire from your a/c shore plug on the boat should also be terminated on that green wire buse/bundle. The object is to get a/c on and off the boat without terminating it into anything except the appliances that it serves. It’s also a very good idea to install a galvanic isolator on the green wire as close to the shore power plug (below decks) as
possible. In the final analysis, the shore power provides the power and the green grounding. If you aren’t sure about your shore plug, meter it. PWMmacks011 <macks04@…> wrote: My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now that I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered and tied together on an off panel buss.Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells me this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure. Yahoo! PersonalsLet fate take it’s course directly to your email.See who’s waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
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Posted by peter korb (pkfolly@…>)
not sure if it’s right or wrong, but the standard does call for it to be
connected, and my boat was commented on by by the surveyor, and the
connection required by the insurance company
\
From: John Lund <frihet02@…>
Reply-To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Electrical Question
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:11:41 -0800 (PST)
I’m told that current ABYC standards require the AC ground and the DC
ground be connected together. Is this true? Any advice from Freedom?
Paul McFadden <pwhitmac@…> wrote: If you’re talking about the
(typically) green a/c “chassis ground” wire, you are definitely correct to
feel that it’s not right. Your whole a/c system should be isolated from the
d/c system. The green wires from your various a/c appliances should be
terminated on a buss bar, or the like. The green wire from your a/c shore
plug on the boat should also be terminated on that green wire buse/bundle.
The object is to get a/c on and off the boat without terminating it into
anything except the appliances that it serves. It’s also a very good idea
to install a galvanic isolator on the green wire as close to the shore
power plug (below decks) as possible. In the final analysis, the shore
power provides the power and the green grounding. If you aren’t sure about
your shore plug, meter it.
PWM
macks011 <macks04@…> wrote:
My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of
straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now that
I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections are
visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct
positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered and
tied together on an off panel buss.
Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC ground
buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells me
this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
Yahoo! Personals
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Posted by macks011 (macks04@…>)
Four responses. Two argue for leaving the connection, One argues for
disconnecting it. One reports on the ABYC codes which recommend
keeping the connection. In fact, the British builders code requires
exactly the opposite. Responses in other forums are equally divided.
Heres what I’m going to do. I already installed a galvanic isolator
two years ago. I am going to break the connection between the
AC ground buss and the DC negative buss. I have a ground tester that
I can plug into an outlet and test the ground every time I hook into
shore power. If the grounds NG, I won’t connect.
It is interesting that serious professionals with a deep
understanding of the engineering and physics cannot come to a
consensus, but similar disagreements exist about lightening
protection and magnetic alge removers.
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, John Lund <frihet02@y…>
wrote:
I’m told that current ABYC standards require the AC ground and the
DC ground be connected together. Is this true? Any advice from
Freedom?
Paul McFadden <pwhitmac@y…> wrote: If you’re talking about
the (typically) green a/c “chassis ground” wire, you are definitely
correct to feel that it’s not right. Your whole a/c system should be
isolated from the d/c system. The green wires from your various a/c
appliances should be terminated on a buss bar, or the like. The
green wire from your a/c shore plug on the boat should also be
terminated on that green wire buse/bundle. The object is to get a/c
on and off the boat without terminating it into anything except the
appliances that it serves. It’s also a very good idea to install a
galvanic isolator on the green wire as close to the shore power plug
(below decks) as possible. In the final analysis, the shore power
provides the power and the green grounding. If you aren’t sure about
your shore plug, meter it.
PWM
macks011 <macks04@o…> wrote:
My electrical panel is an unholy mess and I am in the process of
straightening out the confusion. Its a combined AC/DC panel. Now
that
I have removed and tagged all the D/C wiring, the AC connections
are
visable. All the AC hot leads and neutrals are in their correct
positions and the AC service and distribution grounds are gathered
and
tied together on an off panel buss.
Here’s the question: Someone (PO or builder) connected the AC
ground
buss to the DC negative panel buss with a 6 ga. wire. My gut tells
me
this is wrong, but I don’t know and I’m not sure.
Yahoo! Personals
Let fate take it’s course directly to your email.
See who’s waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
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Posted by harv1752 (harv17@…>)
The Nat. Electrical Code stipulates the green wire is necessary to
ensure that in the event of a ground fault (short circuit) in the
equipment being used has it has a continus path to ground so that
the fuse or C/B will take the circuit off line. Thast should
possibley save your life in a damp environment. Also in a boat I
would make sure that all the recptacles are of the GFIC type. As
far as the connection to the DC buss I haven’t been able to check
the ABYC code. I think that the would be OK. A reverse polarity
device should be a must on all boats to ensure that the shore power
is correct.
Harv F-25 S/V Invicta II #50
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “macks011” <macks04@o…>
wrote:
Snip> >
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Posted by Jay Whittle (whittle@…>)
Hello to all.
I am the Electrical and System Engineer at Freedom Yachts Inc, in Middletown,
RI
In answer to the various emails on this subject here are excerpts from ABYC
that I feel pertain to this question:
11.5.2.7.1 If an AC system is installed, the Main AC system grounding buss shall
be connected to:
11.5.2.7.1.1 1) The engine negative terminal OR
2) the Main DC Negative buss (on grounded DC systems) OR
11.5.2.7.1.2 3) The boats grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DC
electrical systems.
11.5.3.2 A grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC power sources
shall be grounded
ONLY at the following points:
11.5.3.2.1 Shore power is grounded through the shore power cable and SHALL NOT
be grounded on board
the boat.
11.5.3.2.2 The secondary neutral of an Isolation or Polarization transformer
shall be grounded at the secondary of
of the transformer. (If the vessel is so equipped.)
11.5.3.3 The Main AC system bonding bus shall be connected to:
11.5.3.3.1 1) The DC Main negative buss on grounded DC systems OR
2) the Engine Negative terminal OR
11.5.3.3.2 3) the Boats DC grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DC
electrical systems.
additionally, I think the following should also be taken into account when
working on or modifying your vessels electrical systems:
11.5.3.8 Energized parts of Electrical Equipment shall be guarded against
accidental contact by the use of enclosures or
other protective means that shall not be used for non-electrical equipment.
11.7.2.2.1.5 If an optional Galvanic Isolator is used, the shell of a metallic
shorepower inlet shall be electrically isolated from the vessel.
Basically what all this means is that the AC and DC systems ARE to be tied
together, neutral to negative, either at the engine or at the DC Main
bonding buss. Most engine manufacturers today would prefer that it not be the
engine, by the way.
The regulations also say the protected parts of an AC circuit shall be
accessible using hand tools, which means the enclosed circuits need to
behind something mounted in place with screws or other devices which need tools
to open. The older boats didn’t have this protection, but
should be upgraded where possible.
I added the part about the transformer just in case someone has a larger boat
that has been fitted with an upgraded AC electrical system.
We fit Galvanic isolators to all of the new boats we build, even the ones with
Isolation transformers. Increased protection is why.
Yes I do have a BE in Electrical Engineering as well as in Naval Architecture.
Jay Whittle
jayw@…
Design Engineer
Freedom Yachts, Inc.
305 Oliphant Lane
Middletown, RI 02842
——————————————————————————————————
The McKlein Ultimate Rally Calendar - Now Available for 2005!
Click here: http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/plu/15180
Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)
Jay:
Many thanks for weighing in with your obviously considerable experience.
Al Lorman
F30 Ab Initio
-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay WhittleSent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:33 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Electrical QuestionHello to all. I am the Electrical and System Engineer at Freedom Yachts Inc, in Middletown,RIIn answer to the various emails on this subject here are excerpts from ABYCthat I feel pertain to this question:11.5.2.7.1 If an AC system is installed, the Main AC system grounding buss shallbe connected to:11.5.2.7.1.1 1) The engine negative terminal OR 2) the Main DC Negative buss (on grounded DC systems) OR11.5.2.7.1.2 3) The boats grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DCelectrical systems.11.5.3.2 A grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC power sourcesshall be grounded ONLY at the following points:11.5.3.2.1 Shore power is grounded through the shore power cable and SHALL NOTbe grounded on board the boat.11.5.3.2.2 The secondary neutral of an Isolation or Polarization transformershall be grounded at the secondary of of the transformer. (If the vessel is so equipped.)11.5.3.3 The Main AC system bonding bus shall be connected to:11.5.3.3.1 1) The DC Main negative buss on grounded DC systems OR 2) the Engine Negative terminal OR11.5.3.3.2 3) the Boats DC grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DCelectrical systems.additionally, I think the following should also be taken into account whenworking on or modifying your vessels electrical systems:11.5.3.8 Energized parts of Electrical Equipment shall be guarded againstaccidental contact by the use of enclosures or other protective means that shall not be used for non-electrical equipment.11.7.2.2.1.5 If an optional Galvanic Isolator is used, the shell of a metallicshorepower inlet shall be electrically isolated from the vessel.Basically what all this means is that the AC and DC systems ARE to be tiedtogether, neutral to negative, either at the engine or at the DC Mainbonding buss. Most engine manufacturers today would prefer that it not be theengine, by the way.The regulations also say the protected parts of an AC circuit shall beaccessible using hand tools, which means the enclosed circuits need tobehind something mounted in place with screws or other devices which need toolsto open. The older boats didn’t have this protection, but should be upgraded where possible.I added the part about the transformer just in case someone has a larger boatthat has been fitted with an upgraded AC electrical system.We fit Galvanic isolators to all of the new boats we build, even the ones withIsolation transformers. Increased protection is why.Yes I do have a BE in Electrical Engineering as well as in Naval Architecture.Jay Whittlejayw@…Design EngineerFreedom Yachts, Inc.305 Oliphant LaneMiddletown, RI 02842——————————————————————————————————The McKlein Ultimate Rally Calendar - Now Available for 2005! Click here: http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/plu/15180
=00IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any advice expressed above as to tax matters was neither written nor intended by the sender or Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP to be used and cannot be used by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding tax penalties that may be imposed under U.S. tax law. If any person uses or refers to any such tax advice in promoting, marketing or recommending a partnership or other entity, investment plan or arrangement to any taxpayer, then (i) the advice was written to support the promotion or marketing (by a person other than Mayer, Brown, Rowe Maw LLP) of that transaction or matter, and (ii) such taxpayer should seek advice based on the taxpayers particular circumstances from an independent tax advisorThis email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
Thank you very much.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982 SEAPR
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Whittle
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Electrical Question
Hello to all. I am the Electrical and System Engineer at Freedom Yachts Inc, in Middletown,RIIn answer to the various emails on this subject here are excerpts from ABYCthat I feel pertain to this question:11.5.2.7.1 If an AC system is installed, the Main AC system grounding buss shallbe connected to:11.5.2.7.1.1 1) The engine negative terminal OR 2) the Main DC Negative buss (on grounded DC systems) OR11.5.2.7.1.2 3) The boats grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DCelectrical systems.11.5.3.2 A grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC power sourcesshall be grounded ONLY at the following points:11.5.3.2.1 Shore power is grounded through the shore power cable and SHALL NOTbe grounded on board the boat.11.5.3.2.2 The secondary neutral of an Isolation or Polarization transformershall be grounded at the secondary of of the transformer. (If the vessel is so equipped.)11.5.3.3 The Main AC system bonding bus shall be connected to:11.5.3.3.1 1) The DC Main negative buss on grounded DC systems OR 2) the Engine Negative terminal OR11.5.3.3.2 3) the Boats DC grounding buss in installations using ungrounded DCelectrical systems.additionally, I think the following should also be taken into account whenworking on or modifying your vessels electrical systems:11.5.3.8 Energized parts of Electrical Equipment shall be guarded againstaccidental contact by the use of enclosures or other protective means that shall not be used for non-electrical equipment.11.7.2.2.1.5 If an optional Galvanic Isolator is used, the shell of a metallicshorepower inlet shall be electrically isolated from the vessel.Basically what all this means is that the AC and DC systems ARE to be tiedtogether, neutral to negative, either at the engine or at the DC Mainbonding buss. Most engine manufacturers today would prefer that it not be theengine, by the way.The regulations also say the protected parts of an AC circuit shall beaccessible using hand tools, which means the enclosed circuits need tobehind something mounted in place with screws or other devices which need toolsto open. The older boats didn’t have this protection, but should be upgraded where possible.I added the part about the transformer just in case someone has a larger boatthat has been fitted with an upgraded AC electrical system.We fit Galvanic isolators to all of the new boats we build, even the ones withIsolation transformers. Increased protection is why.Yes I do have a BE in Electrical Engineering as well as in Naval Architecture.Jay Whittlejayw@…Design EngineerFreedom Yachts, Inc.305 Oliphant LaneMiddletown, RI 02842——————————————————————————————————The McKlein Ultimate Rally Calendar - Now Available for 2005! Click here: http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/plu/15180
Posted by Jay Whittle (whittle@…>)
No Problem, I wpuld rather have everyone do it right than have someone hurt or
a boat burn down, We’re not making Freedom Sailboats anymore…
From: Jay Whittle
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Electrical Question
Hello to all.
I am the Electrical and System Engineer at Freedom Yachts Inc, in
Middletown,
RI
In answer to the various emails on this subject here are excerpts from
ABYC
that I feel pertain to this question:
11.5.2.7.1 If an AC system is installed, the Main AC system grounding
buss shall
be connected to:
11.5.2.7.1.1 1) The engine negative terminal OR
2) the Main DC Negative buss (on grounded DC systems)
OR
11.5.2.7.1.2 3) The boats grounding buss in installations using
ungrounded DC
electrical systems.
11.5.3.2 A grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC
power sources
shall be grounded
ONLY at the following points:
11.5.3.2.1 Shore power is grounded through the shore power cable and
SHALL NOT
be grounded on board
the boat.
11.5.3.2.2 The secondary neutral of an Isolation or Polarization
transformer
shall be grounded at the secondary of
of the transformer. (If the vessel is so equipped.)
11.5.3.3 The Main AC system bonding bus shall be connected to:
11.5.3.3.1 1) The DC Main negative buss on grounded DC systems
OR
2) the Engine Negative terminal OR
11.5.3.3.2 3) the Boats DC grounding buss in installations using
ungrounded DC
electrical systems.
additionally, I think the following should also be taken into account
when
working on or modifying your vessels electrical systems:
11.5.3.8 Energized parts of Electrical Equipment shall be guarded
against
accidental contact by the use of enclosures or
other protective means that shall not be used for non-electrical
equipment.
11.7.2.2.1.5 If an optional Galvanic Isolator is used, the shell of a
metallic
shorepower inlet shall be electrically isolated from the vessel.
Basically what all this means is that the AC and DC systems ARE to be
tied
together, neutral to negative, either at the engine or at the DC Main
bonding buss. Most engine manufacturers today would prefer that it not be
the
engine, by the way.
The regulations also say the protected parts of an AC circuit shall be
accessible using hand tools, which means the enclosed circuits need to
behind something mounted in place with screws or other devices which need
tools
to open. The older boats didn’t have this protection, but
should be upgraded where possible.
I added the part about the transformer just in case someone has a larger
boat
that has been fitted with an upgraded AC electrical system.
We fit Galvanic isolators to all of the new boats we build, even the ones
with
Isolation transformers. Increased protection is why.
Yes I do have a BE in Electrical Engineering as well as in Naval
Architecture.
Jay Whittle
jayw@…
Design Engineer
Freedom Yachts, Inc.
305 Oliphant Lane
Middletown, RI 02842
Jay Whittle
jayw@…
Design Engineer
Freedom Yachts, Inc.
305 Oliphant Lane
Middletown, RI 02842
——————————————————————————————————
The McKlein Ultimate Rally Calendar - Now Available for 2005!
Click here: http://www.pitstop.net.au/pitstop/plu/15180