F21 or F25 - opinions?

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1

Posted by blleidson (bdeidson@…>)

I figured I’d ask you all for an opinion. I’ve been looking at both
F21s and F25s…haven’t made a purchase yet. I figured since many of
you have actually sailed the F21s for years, I’d pose some questions
to you.

Some background: I’m a reasonably experienced sailor having had a
half-dozen small sailboats on my own, plus a family 40’ sloop. Most
recently I owned a membership in a friend’s Islander 32, until he
switched to a powerboat. I’m looking for a boat that I can easily
singlehand. I usually have a couple of friends along, but none of
them are sailors. Same with my wife. Most of the time we’d be
daysailing around Boston Harbor islands (good wind and substantial
boat wake), but I’d also like to do 2-3 day trips maximum - possibly
into Buzzard’s Bay or up to the Isle of Shoals.

I really like the simplicity of the F21: having an outboard instead of
an inboard, being able to raise & lower the mast myself, etc. But
then the F25 has space…lots of it. Hard to beat…

So…a long way of getting to my questions:

  • The cockpit seems quite large in the F21, but is it actually
    comfortable under sail for 3-4 people?
  • I’ve seen several F21s at this point, but haven’t sailed one. I did
    sail an F25 in light air - nice, but not much of a test. My impression
    from reading about the two boats is that the F21 is more performance
    oriented and the F25 is fast downwind but underpowered upwind. Any
    thoughts on that?
  • Have any of you weekended on the F21? A painful experience or
    reasonably comfortable?
  • And the key questions are…do you find yourself wishing for the
    “next size up” as in the F25? Or do you find that the F21 meets your
    needs for the long haul?

Thanks for any input on my list of questions…

Bill

2

Posted by j32080 (j32080@…>)

Bill,

I’m the former owner of “Blue Merle” (259). Photos:
http://www.freedom21.info/bluemerle.htm

Having sailed both the F-25 and the F-21 I can shed some light. And
I’m also from the Boston, MA area. I’ve been sailing the outer
islands and the coast, mostly weekending from May through October,
since 1995.

Background: My brother owned a 1984 F-25 for a few years in the
late 80s which I cruised with him. With that
understanding/knowledge and to the delight of the boat yard owner I
was able to choose the used F-21 that was sitting in the boat yard
for 10 years. People would walk away from it once they heard that
it wasn’t a sloop rig.

Your major issue will be space – particularly when overnight
cruising with more than 2 people. Some of my experiences:

F-21:

I sailed the F-21 for 7 years and 2,500+ miles. Solo at times, but
mostly with my wife and the dog. Generally every weekend down to
Scituate, up to Salem, or just around the islands with an anchorage
at Peddocks, Worlds End, or elsewhere. My wife is NOT a sailor.
nor is the dog. They’ve never been on boats until the F-21. We’d
frequently grill for dinner, but we also had a lot of pasta nights
(note that I installed an Origo alcohol stove.) So two people CAN
weekend on the boat in comfort.

Quite often we would raft up with another couple and have dinner in
the cockpit or down below (4 of us + the dog). However, 3-4 people
in the cockpit while sailing will be tough. Kids OK, but adults - a
max of 3 for a daysail.

In 1995 I did take the boat from Quincy, MA through the canal all
the way to Falmouth, MA then Newport, RI and back. Legs were solo
or with one other person. So you can do some distance cruising with
it.

F-25:

Four of us (one woman and 3 BIG guys) plus a dog cruised the F-25
for 2 weeks in 1988 starting in Quincy then Plymouth, Onset,
Cuttyhunk, Menemsha, and return via Onset, Plymouth and back to
Quincy. It was slightly cozy, but comfortable. I loved those 7’
quarter berths on the F-25!

Summary:

The F-21 was, for me, a lot of boat. Great day sailor, and good
enough for coastal cruising. Great boat in light air (with the jib)
and able to take the 20+ knots in stride. Lots of space for a 21
footer.

One is always looking for the “next size up”. For me, it was the
next “big” jump (30-32’). However, as my wife stated: “I wish we
could keep the F-21”.

-John

— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “blleidson” <bdeidson@…> wrote:

I figured I’d ask you all for an opinion. I’ve been looking at both
F21s and F25s…haven’t made a purchase yet. I figured since many
of
you have actually sailed the F21s for years, I’d pose some
questions
to you.

Some background: I’m a reasonably experienced sailor having had a
half-dozen small sailboats on my own, plus a family 40’ sloop. Most
recently I owned a membership in a friend’s Islander 32, until he
switched to a powerboat. I’m looking for a boat that I can easily
singlehand. I usually have a couple of friends along, but none of
them are sailors. Same with my wife. Most of the time we’d be
daysailing around Boston Harbor islands (good wind and substantial
boat wake), but I’d also like to do 2-3 day trips maximum -
possibly
into Buzzard’s Bay or up to the Isle of Shoals.

I really like the simplicity of the F21: having an outboard
instead of
an inboard, being able to raise & lower the mast myself, etc. But
then the F25 has space…lots of it. Hard to beat…

So…a long way of getting to my questions:

  • The cockpit seems quite large in the F21, but is it actually
    comfortable under sail for 3-4 people?
  • I’ve seen several F21s at this point, but haven’t sailed one. I
    did
    sail an F25 in light air - nice, but not much of a test. My
    impression
    from reading about the two boats is that the F21 is more
    performance
    oriented and the F25 is fast downwind but underpowered upwind. Any
    thoughts on that?
  • Have any of you weekended on the F21? A painful experience or
    reasonably comfortable?
  • And the key questions are…do you find yourself wishing for the
    “next size up” as in the F25? Or do you find that the F21 meets
    your
    needs for the long haul?

Thanks for any input on my list of questions…

Bill

3

Posted by Sean Mulligan (quadmulligan@…>)
Bill -

When out sailing on our F21 we sometimes see an F25 in our local water south of Stamford on Long Island Sound. She is usually singlehanded so I would say either of these boats are easy to sail by yourself. We have overnighted and done 3-day holiday weekends on the F21. The cockpit is easily big enough for 4 adults (plus we had 3 kids once!).
There is no standing headroom on either boat, but there is a rudimentary head on the 25 vs. a porta-potty on the 21. There is something great about the simplicity of the F21 and she is very suitable for customization.
Upwind performance is fine - even better with good (newer) sails and a headsail. I figure max boat speed to be about 5.8 in this configuration. I have topped 8 with the chute on the gunsight mount.
When I think about going larger than the 21 I don’t think about the 25. I think about a full cruising boat with standing headroom, galley, head, inboard, swim platform, etc. So my qualified answer is…in the “long haul” for comfortable coastal cruising you will want something bigger than either Freedom. But for great sailing and a setup that can certainly handle a cruising couple (+ a kid or 2) for a long weekend the F21 has proven herself time and again (the secret is her 8’ beam).

Sean Mulligan - Emmylou #307
----- Original Message ----From: blleidson <bdeidson@…>To: freedom21@yahoogroups.comSent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:01:02 PMSubject: [freedom21] F21 or F25 - opinions?

I figured I’d ask you all for an opinion. I’ve been looking at bothF21s and F25s…haven’ t made a purchase yet. I figured since many ofyou have actually sailed the F21s for years, I’d pose some questionsto you.Some background: I’m a reasonably experienced sailor having had ahalf-dozen small sailboats on my own, plus a family 40’ sloop. Mostrecently I owned a membership in a friend’s Islander 32, until heswitched to a powerboat. I’m looking for a boat that I can easilysinglehand. I usually have a couple of friends along, but none ofthem are sailors. Same with my wife. Most of the time we’d bedaysailing around Boston Harbor islands (good wind and substantialboat wake), but I’d also like to do 2-3 day trips maximum - possiblyinto Buzzard’s Bay or up to the Isle of Shoals. I really like the simplicity of the F21: having an outboard instead ofan inboard, being able to raise & lower the
mast myself, etc. Butthen the F25 has space…lots of it. Hard to beat… So…a long way of getting to my questions:* The cockpit seems quite large in the F21, but is it actuallycomfortable under sail for 3-4 people?* I’ve seen several F21s at this point, but haven’t sailed one. I didsail an F25 in light air - nice, but not much of a test. My impressionfrom reading about the two boats is that the F21 is more performanceoriented and the F25 is fast downwind but underpowered upwind. Anythoughts on that?* Have any of you weekended on the F21? A painful experience orreasonably comfortable?* And the key questions are…do you find yourself wishing for the"next size up" as in the F25? Or do you find that the F21 meets yourneeds for the long haul?Thanks for any input on my list of questions… .Bill

4

Posted by Peter Devlin (devlin_peter@…>)
Bill, I defer to John and Sean for real expertise both in sailing the F-21 and comparing her to other boats. I just began sailing this last summer out of Newburyport, MA, but did do a solo overnight to the Isles of Shoals. I’m 6’ 2" and found the accomodations snug. My inexperience made me feel a bit crowded with more than one other person on the boat, but again that’s probably my nervousness from lack of experience. I’m certainly an expert at testifying how easy it is to go pretty fast and single hand the boat since, as I mentioned this was my first year sailing, I was nearly always alone, and I could really get moving (imagine if I knew what I was doing). Peterblleidson <bdeidson@…> wrote: I figured I’d ask you all for an opinion. I’ve been looking at bothF21s and F25s…haven’t made a purchase yet. I figured since many ofyou have actually sailed the F21s for years, I’d pose some questionsto you.Some background: I’m a reasonably experienced sailor having had ahalf-dozen small sailboats on my own, plus a family 40’ sloop. Mostrecently I owned a membership in a friend’s Islander 32, until heswitched to a powerboat. I’m looking for a boat that I can easilysinglehand. I usually have a couple of friends along, but none ofthem are sailors. Same with my wife. Most of the time we’d bedaysailing around Boston Harbor
islands (good wind and substantialboat wake), but I’d also like to do 2-3 day trips maximum - possiblyinto Buzzard’s Bay or up to the Isle of Shoals. I really like the simplicity of the F21: having an outboard instead ofan inboard, being able to raise & lower the mast myself, etc. Butthen the F25 has space…lots of it. Hard to beat… So…a long way of getting to my questions:* The cockpit seems quite large in the F21, but is it actuallycomfortable under sail for 3-4 people?* I’ve seen several F21s at this point, but haven’t sailed one. I didsail an F25 in light air - nice, but not much of a test. My impressionfrom reading about the two boats is that the F21 is more performanceoriented and the F25 is fast downwind but underpowered upwind. Anythoughts on that?* Have any of you weekended on the F21? A painful experience orreasonably comfortable?* And the key questions are…do you find yourself
wishing for the"next size up" as in the F25? Or do you find that the F21 meets yourneeds for the long haul?Thanks for any input on my list of questions…Bill __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

5

Posted by Richard Meltz (centaur_cycles@…>)


HI Folks,
Bill asked about the relative merits of the
Freedom 21 and Freedom 25. Since I’ve owned both boats I figured I’d
weigh in on this topic. This is my first post to the group!

I bought my first freedom 21 quite a few years ago and named her “Free
& Clear”. It was a shoal draft/deck stepped mast model. A
really great trailer boat, easy to launch and retrieve, tho not very impressive
to windward(lots of leeway). This boat is a joy to single hand, Bill. The
cockpit is indeed quite roomy and I remember one very brisk
sail in high winds on a mountain lake here in northern New Mexico with the main
reefed and four people on the high side just screaming along on a foamy reach
that had us all really pumped! I’ve even single handed this boat
with the spinnaker up, it’s that easy to handle once you learn the ropes.

You can very comfortably cruise in this boat. My wife
and I trailered her down to San Carlos Mexico 3 times. She
made a great camper on the road, and we spent one or two weeks aboard each
trip. We’d load up on ice and food, then sail up the coast to
remote anchorages. When the ice ran out we’d put up the chute and
run all the way back down to San Carlos in a rousing all-afternoon run, get a
slip, showers, restaurants, more ice and beer, then do it all over again.

But I had this notion I wanted to cross the Sea of Cortez and the 21
seemed too small for the job. So I
bought Free & Clear 2 a lovely Freedom 25. This thing seemed immense sitting
on the trailer way up in the air with a long fin keel hanging down. Much
more trouble to trailer, launch and retrieve, but what a fine boat! No remember,. Some of these
had fixed masts, some had the very cool
rotating wing mast. Ours had the latter. This boat would truly go
to windward, especially with the addition of a small jib. But the chute
was more difficult to run, being a masthead spinnaker it was very large for the
boat. And the wing mast required running backstays for downwind work, so
definitely not a boat to single hand, at least not with the spinnaker up.
Our Freedom 25 had an electric start outboard and proved very swift under
power. I would not want the complication of an inboard in a boat this
size.

We did cross the Sea of Cortez on Free
& Clear 2 and had many sailing adventures, but I missed the easy trailering
of the 21 while at the same time wishing for
an even heftier boat in big waters. Enter Free & Clear #3 and #4!

We sold the lovely Freedom 25 and purchased another 21, this
time a fixed keel/keel stepped mast
model. Yes it’s more difficult to launch retrieve and set up, but
it is SOOOO much better to windward than the shoal model. Then I also
purchased a Freedom 32 which we keep in the water in Marina Del Rey Califorrnia.
The 32 is the best darned sailboat ever! High tech hull and rigging, true
yacht style joinerwork interior below, and the most spacious interior ever seen
on a boat this size. I’ve sailed her for 10 years now and am
looking forward to another 10. By the way, if any of you sailors want to
try her out, she’s for charter whenever I’m not aboard. Go to
http://www.bluepacificboating.com/
for specifics.

And the deep keel 21?? We enjoyed her for several
years in our local lake sailing, but have not used her recently. It’s
easier and kinda more fun to fly out to MDR and sail the big boat!
Anybody interested in buying a well loved fresh water Freedom 21 that needs cleaning
and a good home??

Best to all,
Richard Meltz

6

Posted by blleidson (bdeidson@…>)

Richard - thanks for your post. I’m glad I put the questions out
there–I’m getting lots of good information. I looked at Free & Clear
… what beautiful boat!




— In freedom21@yahoogroups.com, “Richard Meltz” <centaur_cycles@…>
wrote:

HI Folks,

Bill asked about the relative merits of the Freedom 21 and Freedom 25.
Since I’ve owned both boats I figured I’d weigh in on this topic.
This is
my first post to the group!

I bought my first freedom 21 quite a few years ago and named her “Free &
Clear”. It was a shoal draft/deck stepped mast model. A really great
trailer boat, easy to launch and retrieve, tho not very impressive to
windward(lots of leeway). This boat is a joy to single hand, Bill. The
cockpit is indeed quite roomy and I remember one very brisk sail in high
winds on a mountain lake here in northern New Mexico with the main
reefed
and four people on the high side just screaming along on a foamy
reach that
had us all really pumped! I’ve even single handed this boat with the
spinnaker up, it’s that easy to handle once you learn the ropes.

You can very comfortably cruise in this boat. My wife and I
trailered her
down to San Carlos Mexico 3 times. She made a great camper on the
road, and
we spent one or two weeks aboard each trip. We’d load up on ice and
food,
then sail up the coast to remote anchorages. When the ice ran out
we’d put
up the chute and run all the way back down to San Carlos in a rousing
all-afternoon run, get a slip, showers, restaurants, more ice and
beer, then
do it all over again.

But I had this notion I wanted to cross the Sea of Cortez and the 21
seemed
too small for the job. So I bought Free & Clear 2 a lovely Freedom 25.
This thing seemed immense sitting on the trailer way up in the air
with a
long fin keel hanging down. Much more trouble to trailer, launch and
retrieve, but what a fine boat! No remember,. Some of these had fixed
masts, some had the very cool rotating wing mast. Ours had the latter.
This boat would truly go to windward, especially with the addition of a
small jib. But the chute was more difficult to run, being a masthead
spinnaker it was very large for the boat. And the wing mast required
running backstays for downwind work, so definitely not a boat to single
hand, at least not with the spinnaker up. Our Freedom 25 had an
electric
start outboard and proved very swift under power. I would not want the
complication of an inboard in a boat this size.

We did cross the Sea of Cortez on Free & Clear 2 and had many sailing
adventures, but I missed the easy trailering of the 21 while at the same
time wishing for an even heftier boat in big waters. Enter Free &
Clear #3
and #4!

We sold the lovely Freedom 25 and purchased another 21, this time a
fixed
keel/keel stepped mast model. Yes it’s more difficult to launch
retrieve
and set up, but it is SOOOO much better to windward than the shoal
model.
Then I also purchased a Freedom 32 which we keep in the water in
Marina Del
Rey Califorrnia. The 32 is the best darned sailboat ever! High
tech hull
and rigging, true yacht style joinerwork interior below, and the most
spacious interior ever seen on a boat this size. I’ve sailed her for 10
years now and am looking forward to another 10. By the way, if any
of you
sailors want to try her out, she’s for charter whenever I’m not
aboard. Go
to http://www.bluepacificboating.com/ for specifics.

And the deep keel 21?? We enjoyed her for several years in our
local lake
sailing, but have not used her recently. It’s easier and kinda more
fun to
fly out to MDR and sail the big boat! Anybody interested in buying
a well
loved fresh water Freedom 21 that needs cleaning and a good home??

Best to all,

Richard Meltz