F21 vs F25?

General Discussion
1

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. Quick background–I initially took a Red Cross basic sailing course as a teenager, and spent several summers enjoying many small rental boats on lake Chiemsee in West Germany. But then we moved back to the states, and life got in the way of sailing. I recently went sailing again for the first time in a few decades, and was bitten quite hard by the sailing bug. After much thought, my wife and I have decided to purchase a sailboat, and Freedoms are coming up to the top of my list. I was hoping to get some informed opinions on what might be the right boat for me.

As of now, both the Freedom 21 and Freedom 25 have appealing features. Would either of these be appropriate for a sailor’s essentially first boat? One of my main considerations is that it be trailerable and ramp-launchable, as I would like to try sailing different places. Is the F25 (or even the F21 full-keel version) pushing the limits of this on a realistic basis?

So what do you think of the following boats for my purposes?

–F21 shoal keel model
strengths: lower CG for safer trailering; easiest to ramp-launch; smaller draft=less need for deep water (amongst other places, I would like to sail inland lakes, and one day the Florida keys).
weaknesses: Freedoms seem to have a reputation for poor upwind performance, and this is considered the worst performer of the bunch (I’ve seen some people online say “make sure you DON’T get this model”). I’m more interested in fun day/weekend cruising than any kind of racing, but going fast is fun, plus I don’t want to be passed by paddle-boaters!

–F21 full keel model
strengths: best F21 performance; smaller, lighter, and slightly less draft than F25 makes for easier trailering/launching.
weaknesses: 4’ of draft still makes for challenging ramp-launching; obviously smaller onboard accommodations than F25–could it handle 2 people for more than a single overnight?

–F25 round-mast model
strengths: better performance than F21; more room makes longer cruises possible (BTW, how long is reasonable on this size boat?); very attractive boat!
weaknesses: is it reasonable to try to ramp-launch this thing on a regular basis? (I would attempt the rope-extension method); bigger & heavier means costlier to trailer; is this too much boat for a beginner?

I know it must seem like a lot of questions. I’ve tried reading several books and online resources to find answers, but I sure could use some insight from people who have sailed (and especially trailered and ramp-launched) these boats. I would love to hear any and all comments and recommendations, including that I’m getting in way over my head and should just buy an old Sunfish. Thanks!


P.S. Is it really considered taboo and bad luck to change a boat’s name? My wife & I got married (17 years ago tomorrow) on a yacht named Royal Blue, and I would really like to rename our new boat Royal Blue, as a romantic gesture to my wife. Would the old salts in the sailing community condemn me?

2

Welcome, RB. While I can add nothing to your F21 v F25 questions (I’m only experienced with F36 and F38), I can offer something on renaming.

I have never hesitated to rename but if you don’t walk under ladders or stay on the 13th floor of a hotel here is a ceremony that is guaranteed to ward off the bad spirits if you do go that way:

http://www.bluewatersailing.com/documents/renamingceremony.pdf

Best of luck

3

There are a lot of 21 and 25 owners who, I’m sure, will soon answer your real questions but, in the mean time, there’s just a vague synapse or two firing on some dim memory in my brain, but I seem to remember something about “backing over the old name.” Once you remove the old name from the transom you are supposed to immediately back the boat up a short distance to “back over the old name.” I’m not sure what it does but I wouldn’t risk ignoring it.

I assume you’ve already begun the search for the coin that you’ve going to put under the mast? A coin from the year the boat was built has the most reliable juju but, in your case, one from the year you were married would be every bit as effective.

4

Ereiss and Rick,
Thanks for the replies and renaming “requirements”. This boating thing’s going to be more fun than I thought! Fortunately on the requirement to sail backwards under sail, this appears to be one of the F21’s specialty “tricks” (as seen in the ubiquitous youtube video). I assume the F25, having the same spinnaker setup, will do the same? I also just happen to collect silver dollars, so it appears that we’re in good shape and at least my renaming concerns have been put to bed!

5

Back to your original question…

My wife and I looked at both F21 and F25 a few years back, and ended up choosing the F25. Other than size, the only distinguishing differences I can recall are the fixed vs. portable head, and the steps down the companionway vs. just using the ice chest for the one step down.

I would say the main decider is where and how you plan to sail. When we first got the F25, we kept it on the upper Potomac River near Washington DC, and there were times I felt the smaller F21 would have served us better up there. We are now out on the Chesapeake, and there are times when I wish the F25 were a bit stiffer. If you plan to race, I think there are probably still opportunities to race one-design against other F21’s if you’re willing to trailer it around. You sometimes see a F25 for sale with a trailer, but I’d say they are about the limit of what is practical for this.

So, bottom line: if trailering and/or dry-sailing is important to you, I would go with the F21. If you plan to keep the boat in a slip and sail around one region, then F25.

6

Unfetteredalexandria,

You’re probably right, but I guess I want both! I have no interest in racing, I would rather cruise in larger bodies of water, AND I plan on trailering without keeping the boat in a slip. So I guess my questions really boil down to: I really want an F25, so has anyone had any direct experience with trailering and ramp-launching one? I need to know whether the experience would be SO difficult that it would discourage me from using the boat. For what it’s worth, I also plan on purchasing the tow vehicle to match the boat (i.e. I’ll probably get a full-size used Ford F150 for the F25, or a used midsize Dodge Dakota for the F21), so the towing capacity shouldn’t be the problem.

And then if it turns out the full-keel thing is the problem, does anyone have direct experience with the shoal-keel F21? Is it really AS BAD as I’ve heard for performance?

Anxiously awaiting replies from those with experience.

7

As I’m finding out with my F25, the problem you’re going to have if you want to ramp launch is finding a place to get your rig stepped. One nice thing about the F21 is the option to have a tabernacle mast so you can put the rig up without a crane. The F25 mast is too heavy for this. Also, the boat is heavy, over 4000 lbs. without the trailer weight, it’s not easy to pull around.

8

Moose,
Are you saying that the F25 mast is too heavy to step without a crane? About how much does it weigh? I saw on another thread where someone posted a picture of how they used a 20’ home-made A-frame somehow (and I think the word “easy” was even attached to the description!), but it looked like there is a lot more to it than it first seems.

As far as the weight of the boat being a lot to tow around (I’ve read to expect approx. 5350lb actual tow weight), the tow vehicle I’m considering has a rated towing capacity of 9500lb. Given that I have little experience in this area, is there a point you’re making that I’m missing, and I need to consider?

As always, I appreciate your input.

9

We have just towed our F21 back from Spain to Shetland (2000 miles + a couple of overnight ferry trips), with a medium sized European car. With a Jeep (which we used the other way), it was very easy, but the car was a bit light and short for the job. The boat is easy to launch, about 30 minutes this afternoon, but, having been married for 40 years, I need a crane to get the mast up. It sails well, and is good fun, but a bit small and light for anything longer than a short weekend. We have the UK twin lifting keel version, which is closer winded than our F33, but slams in any sort of sea. I don’t know how it compares with a deep fin keel.

Personally, I would love to have a wing masted F25 for playing with, and it would certainly be a big enough boat for a few sleep-overs. Nothing less than a big 4x4 would do for towing. Launching is probably no more of a problem, if you can get the depth on a slipway. You will certainly need a crane for the mast.

Going to windward is very useful, but is not the best part of sailing: avoid it if you can! Our F21 is called “Skeba”; even the PO couldn’t say what it means, and it’s nothing like my wife’s name, but I’m too idle to change it.

Good sailing!

Gerald Freshwater

10

Gerald,
Thank you for the observations. I believe the UK version of the F21 has an aluminum mast that is much heavier than the US carbon fiber one, so the need for a crane might not be applicable to me. But your observations of space and sailing qualities are useful, and make me really want to see if I can make trailering a Freedom 25 work.

I did manage to find a photo sequence of a home-made hoist here (hoisting an aluminum mast on a Freedom 21): http://www.freedom21.info/F21%20Mast%20Hoist%20Photos%20_2_.pdf, which certainly looks doable, although I’ll still need a lot more details.

By the way, I did a little research for you, and it appears Skeba’s original owner was a music-lover, as “Skeba” is Finnish for “guitar.” I hope you got her for a song, and she’s been nothing but beautiful music for you!

11

Hello RoyalBlue,

Among the Freedom sailboats,for the type of sailing and trailering you describe I agree the shoal draft version of the F21 is your best option. Preferably one with a tabernacle mast. Fin keel F21’s and F25 can be trailer launched but I do not think this is an exercise that you want to repeat more than absolutely necessary.

I own two F25’s, one wing mast and one round mast. I trailer my boats but have them crane launched because my trailer is not a float off model. Do not be intimidated by the stepping of the mast. Inspired by UK F21 A-Frame, I made a 20’ aluminum A-frame to step and un-step my mast. I can perform the entire operation by myself, and the frame paid for itself after the first use. My wing mast weighs about 185lbs while the round mast is 160lbs.
Size wise the F25 is at least 50% bigger in the cabin, so creature comfort is a lot better in the F25. I also prefer the inboard diesels over outboards.
Keep in mind that for day sails, launching, rigging, retrieving, and unrigging will take a considerable amount of time out of your day.
You might want to consider starting with a smaller boat if you really want to trailer launch frequently. Then when you are ready to upgrade to a F25 you can buy my round mast F25, she’s on the marked right now. She’s a 1984 model with a yanmar 1gm10 with only 170 hours.

Happy sailing

Jim D

12

I stepped the mast this morning; with the help of a friend, and a modest mast crane, it took about 20 minutes. I have one of the few UK F21’s with a TP carbon fibre mast, which is less than 2/3 the weight of the alloy spar, which makes the whole thing easier. I can actually lift it off the ground unaided, but would not like to try the sheerlegs scheme you found with the boat in the water, since it has considerable rotational momentum and the boat is quite tender.

Thanks for the note about ‘Skeba’; I have sailed in Finland, but my command of the language is limited to “kipis”.

Good luck with your choice.

Regards,

13

Well, I’m not receiving the replies I was hoping for–that lots of F25 owners regularly ramp-launch their boats with ease. That said, I would rather get the truth now before I make my decisions. I can’t thank all of you enough for the INVALUABLE advice you are giving me! This website is worth its weight in gold.

Is a tabernacle mast that much easier to use than your A-frame method? Right now I see two trailered shoal-keel F21s available online–one with a tabernacle mast and one without; of course the one without appears to be in better condition. So how much time and effort will the tabernacle save me?

Regarding the tabernacle mast, is that purely a factory option, or can the appropriate part be readily found to convert a fixed mast? And that brings up another big question I have–where does one find replacement parts for these boats? Obviously a marine supply store will have the generic stuff, but where would one find things like a tabernacle hinge for a carbon fiber mast with an exact proprietary dimension, or other F21 specific parts?

By the way, do you have a web ad/photos for your Freedom 25 that is for sale? Even if I end up getting the F21, it is great to window shop the really good stuff!

14

I have a F25 which I store on a trailer over the winter. I had a 12 ft. extension added to the trailer, and with that it is fairly easy to launch as long as you have access to a steep angled launch ramp. I have never even tried to get the boat out of the water using the trailer. You will need a crane to do that.

Stepping the mast is easy if your marina has any sort of mast crane. The mast isn’t all that heavy - just akward to work with in the vertical position.

My truck has a 5000 lb. towing capacity and it is uphill all the way from my marina to the house. I have to stop at least once to let the transmission cool down during the trip. Unless you strip the boat bare before towing the boat and trailer are HEAVY! Towing one around would bet expensive, and driving fast certainly isn’t an option.

15

I own a F25 and have a trailer for my boat I would not even consider dry sailing my F25 or a F21 I hate to steer a new freedom owner away but from ur messages sounds like u want an affordable boat which u can drive to the lake for an afternoon sail. Their are many other sailboats on the market with swing keels lighter rigs, and simplier rigging systems which would make a lot more sense. good luck and we are all looking forward to what u decide.

16

All good info–thanks. I think that part of the issue is the towing capacity of the tow vehicle. My research shows the Freedom 25 does have a displacement of only 3500 lb., but with trailer and minimum gear (not even including beer coolers, etc.), the weight is approximately 5350 lbs. I think one would want a vehicle with a towing capacity far in excess of this, when considering engine, transmission, and most importantly braking ability, especially if hills and ramps are added to the mix. R. Bush, I think if I were you I might consider saving your transmission and renting a larger tow vehicle for the 2 days a year you need to tow your boat. If the truck is big enough, you could perhaps even consider ramp retrieval, eliminating the crane cost.

17

It is down hill to the launch, so for the one day a year I figure my truck can suck it up and make the trip if I take it easy and allow a cool down stop on the way home!

The issue with retrieval is that you need a steep ramp and the trailer has to be really submerged to get the keel to float over it. That makes it virtually impossible to see to line the boat up so that the keel stays centered over the keel rest as you tow the whole packabe up and out of the water. To even consider it you would have to have a trailer with a raised post and winch at the front which most don’t have.

The trailer extension is also a must unless you don’t mind having water sloshing thru the truck cab when you launch the boat.

18

Yarrow,
I am very much taking your and everybody else’s comments into consideration–you are all giving me much more perspective than simple facts and numbers can suggest.

You are right, I would like to be able to take my boat to the lake for a day of sailing, but since I live 1-2 hours from some decent sized lakes (that I don’t mind driving to on a regular basis), I don’t really have a “home” lake, and I think it would be best if I kept my boat at my house and kept the option to explore multiple different lakes. But I also have dreams of sailing around the Florida Keys, which is only a day’s drive away. Therefore, I don’t want to end up with just a tiny dinghy.

I haven’t completely made up my mind yet, but all the feedback is tending to lean me towards a shoal-keeled F21, ideally with a tabernacle mast. Apparently it can’t get too much easier to rig (not to mention sail) a sailboat than that. All the benefits of a smaller, lighter, low center of gravity tow package, mean that it might not be too difficult to trailer and ramp launch on a regular basis. So, does anyone have direct experience with such a boat?

19

I found this photo-essay showing all the steps needed to launch and retrieve a full-keel sailboat from a ramp:
http://schrothfiberglass.com/Ramp%20launching.htm
It does look very straightforward, but I can’t at all speak to how easy this is in real life, which is why I’m here.

I’ve also seen that some people modify their trailers with carpet-covered wood guides that easily guide the keel into the correct position, such as here:
http://sailtrailers.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/oglesby_cc24.59124729_large.jpg

as well as the addition of visual guide posts which stick up very high, such as in this beautiful example:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/boa/2946007632.html

It does seem like it’s do-able, but having the right trailer setup would definitely be critical.