F33 Carbon fiber mast problems

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1

Posted by paulsebra (paulsebra@…>)

Good Day,

I am in the process of selling my 1981 F33 and this process has
elicited some very interesting questions and comments, including a
Nigerian Prince who wants to pay me $200,000 … but that’s another
post.

I had a fellow refer me to the following link

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10241

Where one of the posts contains the following info about surface
cracks on the masts. My boat has lost it’s shine in the upper,
exposed areas of the masts. My thoughts were the UV had affected the
outer coating - gelcoat - epoxy - whatever they used and you can see
the pattern of a layer of tape (or something) underneath. I am
curious as to other folks experience with these older masts (mine is
a 1981). Has there been a lot of problems with these masts??? Who
would build a replacement if it was needed???

I don’t wnat to sell somebody something that is going to be a problem
without giving them fair warning … any thoughts would be
appreciated

Thanks

Paul

Here is a portion of the discussion from the other board …

Hi Ryan,

I was Chief Engineer at TPI when we converted the Freedom 33 from a
centerboarder to a keel boat. The centerboard took up too much
interior room, and the overall weight was too high, and that is why
we took the centerboard out and added the keel. The keel version is a
much more seakindly boat than the centerboard version, so look for
one of those.

The other thing to look at is the masts. The older carbon fiber masts
experienced a lot of sufferficial cracking which, most of the time,
goes only into the first layer of the outer fiberglass windings.
These can be repaired, but you have to strip the masts of all their
hardware and relaminate fiberglass cloth and epoxy around the mast to
get rid of the cracks and restore the surface. Then refair and
repaint.

I personally know of one Freedom 33 in Newport, RI, named Folly, that
has done the Newport-Bermuda One-Two a couple of times. She’s a good
boat. I know of some others, only anecdotally, that have crossed the
Atlantic. They were popular in England.

Good luck in your search.

Eric

Eric W. Sponberg
Naval Architect, PE (CT)
St. Augustine, FL
(904) 460-9494

2

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Paul,

I can say the following:

The circular cracks in Freedom CF masts are not caused by UV. My
1981 F44 original mizzen was painted white long ago (perhaps when
new) and the mast still developed cracks. I think the cracks are
caused by conjunction of two things:

  1. the original Freedom CF masts were a little bit too flexible;
  2. the outer layer of resin was a bit too brittle.

These two things together cuased the cracks.

I had this mizzen filled, sanded and sprayed with Awlgrip. A lot of
work, but it looks like new. The new top layer of awlgrip is
hopefully flexible enough to follow the flexing of the mast.

My mainmast was hit by lightning (without visible damage) and
replaced by the PO by a custom built new CF mast. It was built by
Goetz Marine Technology. I think they have a lot of expertise in
this area.

The Goetz mast is built a bit different than the original, the
result of almost two decades of gaining experience with CF masts.

It’s built with a larger outer diameter than the original,
especially at the top. It only just fits through the deck opening.
The outer surface is wrapped in a thin layer of glass and a flexible
epoxy, this on top of the CF.

As far as I know, every original Freedom CF mast develops these
cracks after 20 or so years, and I’ve never heard of problems.

This is what I can say from my own experience and from hanging
around on this board since 1997.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “paulsebra”
<paulsebra@…> wrote:

Good Day,

I am in the process of selling my 1981 F33 and this process has
elicited some very interesting questions and comments, including a
Nigerian Prince who wants to pay me $200,000 … but that’s
another
post.

I had a fellow refer me to the following link

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10241

Where one of the posts contains the following info about surface
cracks on the masts. My boat has lost it’s shine in the upper,
exposed areas of the masts. My thoughts were the UV had affected
the
outer coating - gelcoat - epoxy - whatever they used and you can
see
the pattern of a layer of tape (or something) underneath. I am
curious as to other folks experience with these older masts (mine
is
a 1981). Has there been a lot of problems with these masts??? Who
would build a replacement if it was needed???

I don’t wnat to sell somebody something that is going to be a
problem
without giving them fair warning … any thoughts would be
appreciated

Thanks

Paul

Here is a portion of the discussion from the other board …

Hi Ryan,

I was Chief Engineer at TPI when we converted the Freedom 33 from
a
centerboarder to a keel boat. The centerboard took up too much
interior room, and the overall weight was too high, and that is
why
we took the centerboard out and added the keel. The keel version
is a
much more seakindly boat than the centerboard version, so look for
one of those.

The other thing to look at is the masts. The older carbon fiber
masts
experienced a lot of sufferficial cracking which, most of the
time,
goes only into the first layer of the outer fiberglass windings.
These can be repaired, but you have to strip the masts of all
their
hardware and relaminate fiberglass cloth and epoxy around the mast
to
get rid of the cracks and restore the surface. Then refair and
repaint.

I personally know of one Freedom 33 in Newport, RI, named Folly,
that
has done the Newport-Bermuda One-Two a couple of times. She’s a
good
boat. I know of some others, only anecdotally, that have crossed
the
Atlantic. They were popular in England.

Good luck in your search.

Eric

Eric W. Sponberg
Naval Architect, PE (CT)
St. Augustine, FL
(904) 460-9494

3

Posted by paulsebra (paulsebra@…>)

Michel,

Thanks for the info, especially the …

“As far as I know, every original Freedom CF mast develops these
cracks after 20 or so years, and I’ve never heard of problems.”

I had never heard of a problem either, but I wanted to be sure, my
experience is much more limited. I will advise the folks who look at
the boat to do the treat and paint routine.

Thanks again

Paul

4

Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)

Paul,
I just wanted to add that Bright Star has the same mast layup (1980),
as does a Freedom 25 down the dock (1983 I think), and they both show
the same horizontal banding. I have talked to Eric Sponberg as well,
and besides the cosmetic issues, he says if you have vertical
cracks, then all is not well and more investigation is necessary.

My rigger, Northeast Rigging, works out of a space with Composite
Engineering, a cf builder of masts, canoes, and kayaks. They’ve told
me that at this time, if you break a mast, it’s as likely they’ll
repair it as build a new one (depending on damage, of course), and the
repair will be stronger than the original.

The longevity of carbon fiber masts is probably not infinite, but I
imagine it has a lot more longevity than a comparably flexible
aluminum mast. It’s not insignificant that Freedom warranted their
masts for the lifetime of the boat (at least until the original owner
sold it).

Lance
Bright Star
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “paulsebra” <paulsebra@…>
wrote:

Michel,

Thanks for the info, especially the …

“As far as I know, every original Freedom CF mast develops these
cracks after 20 or so years, and I’ve never heard of problems.”

I had never heard of a problem either, but I wanted to be sure, my
experience is much more limited. I will advise the folks who look at
the boat to do the treat and paint routine.

Thanks again

Paul

5

Posted by Alan (akusinitz@…>)

There are many posting on the other site if you search regarding this.
I spoke with several carbon fiber mast experts before I purchased my
33 and to Eric Sponberg afterwards as well. I have seen a fair number
of freedom masts of the early 80s vintage.
Many show the fading and cracking where the narrow cloth wrap butt
joints are in the outer layer. My understanding is the purpose of
this layer is compression only with the bulk of the structure being
the carbon fiber.
I am convinced it is only cosmetic both by the explanations of
construction and the long history of these masts with few problems.
I have surfed downwind at 10 knots in 35 knots of wind with full main
up to perform a stress test so to speak. My mast has the fading and
small cracks in the outer layer. No sign of any structural issues. I
have examined the inside of the masts when out of the boat with a
bright light and the inside is pristine.
I think you’ve been in touch with a friend of mine about your boat
and if I thought it was an issue I would have told him of course.
More important is whether the base of the mast is wearing where the
pin/bolt goes in or whether there’s rotation and wear due to
inadequate wedging at the deck or base.
Regards,
Alan Freedom 33 Hull #81 1982


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “paulsebra”
<paulsebra@…> wrote:

Good Day,

I am in the process of selling my 1981 F33 and this process has
elicited some very interesting questions and comments, including a
Nigerian Prince who wants to pay me $200,000 … but that’s
another
post.

I had a fellow refer me to the following link

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10241

Where one of the posts contains the following info about surface
cracks on the masts. My boat has lost it’s shine in the upper,
exposed areas of the masts. My thoughts were the UV had affected
the
outer coating - gelcoat - epoxy - whatever they used and you can
see
the pattern of a layer of tape (or something) underneath. I am
curious as to other folks experience with these older masts (mine
is
a 1981). Has there been a lot of problems with these masts??? Who
would build a replacement if it was needed???

I don’t wnat to sell somebody something that is going to be a
problem
without giving them fair warning … any thoughts would be
appreciated

Thanks

Paul

Here is a portion of the discussion from the other board …

Hi Ryan,

I was Chief Engineer at TPI when we converted the Freedom 33 from a
centerboarder to a keel boat. The centerboard took up too much
interior room, and the overall weight was too high, and that is why
we took the centerboard out and added the keel. The keel version is
a
much more seakindly boat than the centerboard version, so look for
one of those.

The other thing to look at is the masts. The older carbon fiber
masts
experienced a lot of sufferficial cracking which, most of the time,
goes only into the first layer of the outer fiberglass windings.
These can be repaired, but you have to strip the masts of all their
hardware and relaminate fiberglass cloth and epoxy around the mast
to
get rid of the cracks and restore the surface. Then refair and
repaint.

I personally know of one Freedom 33 in Newport, RI, named Folly,
that
has done the Newport-Bermuda One-Two a couple of times. She’s a
good
boat. I know of some others, only anecdotally, that have crossed
the
Atlantic. They were popular in England.

Good luck in your search.

Eric

Eric W. Sponberg
Naval Architect, PE (CT)
St. Augustine, FL
(904) 460-9494