Hi, I am new to the forum, but have been sailing and building sailboats for years. I am wondering if anyone has heard of an example of a Freedom being converted to stayed masts?
I have rather unique taste in boats(probably why I’m here) and want to do a complete rig redesign on an F33. I want to remove both existing masts, add a small bosprit, and install two new stayed masts. Creating a majestic Staysl Schooner inspired by the great Sir Issac of Port Townsend. I’m also curious if there is a Naval Architect around who knows these boats well and would like to work on this project?
I would say that you should find another boat to convert. Why do you want to bastardize a Freedom? You want to convert it into something that she wasn’t designed to be.
While I appreciate your purist take(I really do). Judging by the prices of used Freedom sailboats, they don’t exactly have some cult puritan following. I don’t think I will be “Bastardizing” the Mona Lisa here. I love the hull, the swing keel and the cabin layout. Wheel steering a boat if this size is for people who don’t actually like to sail, so I will convert to tiller steering. I am generally an engineless purist, so I’ll remove the unbearable diesel engine in favor of a <5hp electric drive, and for the rig, likely two single spreader wood masts, one where the aft mast is now, and one near the cabin front. What I end up creating will be in the same spirit as the designer of the F33, letting these boats die in marinas is a far greater tragedy than me converting one into a majestic schooner that actually gets out and sails hard.
Freedom Yachts weren’t designed by smooth brain squares who can only think about sloops, they were designed for outsiders and free thinkers like myself.
Strangely, while doing a lot of motor-sailing in the Med, I mused on what to do if I lost the front mast. At the time, 2003, masts were virtually unobtainable, however this has eased a lot and the junk rig folks can tell you how to do it.
I came up with adding rigging to the back mast and stepping a standard off-the-shelf front mast on the forward toilet bulkhead - with reinforcement - again using wire rigging. Attached drawing shows a possible rig which could include a fisherman’s topsail attached to a track on the front mast.
Fortunately the need never arose and I now favour an off-the-shelf sloop rig mounted on the aft toilet bulkhead, much as was described in this forum about a year ago.
However if you really want to mess about, junk rig seems to offer a simpler and better solution with ease of handling and more sail area up aloft.
I’ve found some photos of Sir Isaac, I assume the more modern one which looks nice but is a lot bigger than the F33 and more able to accommodate the schooner rig which has a lot of clutter.
I once sailed a 50’ bermudan schooner from the Clyde to Devon and was impressed by its lack of windward ability but also being an absolute pig on the run with only the backsail (mainsail) able to find the wind and then a nightmare to gybe or take down in a breeze… At least our cat ketches are good at running.
The original wishbone-rigged cat ketch is a delightful boat to sail, amazingly well balanced even on my long-keel hull. Interesting and challenging but pretty safe as well. You can dump the sails on a reach and sort them out later and the backsail is ‘all-in-the-cockpit’ as it were. Anchoring and picking up a mooring under sail is possible, though not advised in a tight spot with other boats and I’ve even laid it alongside a pontoon after dirty fuel stopped the diesel.
I would seriously advise against scrapping the wheel steering unless the gear is completely knackered. I had mine refurbished three winters ago by Whitlock South - now like new.
Are you against changing to tiller steering because these boats are hard to balance and need the mechanical advantage of the wheel? I just really can’t stand sailing with wheels.
I love your ketch drawing.
I can’t imagine my schooner rig being any worse than the standard F33 rig, and I usually fly a chute downwind, so I’m confident I’ll be able to keep her moving.
you make a good point about the Schooner clutter. only having one boom will simplify it a bit, but it probably will be quite busy, especially compared to the simplicity of the standard F33 rig.
I would say that the cockpit is a bit small for a tiller. Edited, but of course if the whole pedestal is removed then the space is better. I’ve used my emergency tiller to stabilise the rudder when leaving the boat on an open mooring and even its short length seems to get in the way. Mostly, you can steer with one finger under a spoke on the wheel and while sitting on either side. Also much easier to fit an electric auto-pilot - and the boat won’t sail with a lashed helm, in my experience anyway, but the tiller would win for a wind vane - by a mile! Best you try a season with the wheel and rig up a tiller every so often, ex that the emergency tiller on my boat is not a good fit - slotted into the top of the rudder and engaging on a pin built into the internal rudder stock - I think.
I would imagine that a naval architect would tell you that Freedom hulls were not designed to carry the loads of shrouds and stays, and probably recommend against your project on this basis.
This seems very unlikely to me. The loads on a hull with an unstayed mast almost certainly require a much stronger hull. I wouldn’t be surprised if the chainplate locations need large backer plates, but I’m sure no major hull reinforcing would be required.
[quote=codyharris86 post_id=56319 time=1724073425 user_id=6484]
This seems very unlikely to me. The loads on a hull with an unstayed mast almost certainly require a much stronger hull. I wouldn’t be surprised if the chainplate locations need large backer plates, but I’m sure no major hull reinforcing would be required.
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I suggest that you understand how the hulls are actually constructed, instead of guessing.
Whilst the feature that drew me to buy a cat-rigged ketch was the ease of sail handling, and lack of jib(s), I rather doubt that the difficulties of changing the rig to such a large extent will produce much benefit in windward performance, and none at all on other points of sailing. If you have the boat already, you might try the effects of a high aspect ratio jib flown from a modestly extended bowsprit for going upwind; I know someone did this with the larger F40 some years ago. It might inform other rig changes, too. You would need a running backstay taken to weather to keep the mast from excessive bending, as is usually done for a staysail set on the mizzen mast. You could take it to the midships cleat, but tacking would be somewhat cumbersome.
As for replacing the wheel with a tiller, I do believe you would find this impossibly heavy in any sort of a seaway. I tried using the emergency tiller (2" diameter stainless steel pipe) to lash the helm to leeward when hove-to in a gale, and it quickly bent, but a fairly light lashing on the wheel was effective for several more hours. Furthermore, the cockpit is quite wide, and you would have to use a folding extension if you wished ever to sit whilst steering by hand, which introduces another point of weakness. The unbalanced transom hung rudder needs a lot of force to manage without the mechanical advantage of the wheel.
The wheel readily accepts an electrical autopilot. We have a wind vane, too, which is set up to run lines beneath the cockpit grating and works a drum attached to the wheel, without unduly obstructing the cockpit. You would need a long tiller to get the required mechanical advantage.
If you try sailing the standard boat, I expect you will be pleasantly surprised with the comfort and performance. The one thing we did change was to have new sails made with (large) zipped pockets around the main, which certainly gave us an extra 5º of windward sailing on each tack.
Stayed vs unstayed rig support is not a simple matter of the hull being strong or not. Hulls are never universally strong in all locations and all directions. They are optimized for particular types of loading. An unstayed rig loads the hull in entirely different ways than a stayed rig.
An unstayed mast loads the hull in shear at two locations: the keel where it is stepped, and the deck where it is supported. So the deck and step are reinforced against very strong shear loads. The compression loads on the step are limited to just the weight of the rig.
A stayed mast is totally different. Shear loads are minimized and converted to tension and compression. The mast step faces little shear but significant compression as the stays pull the mast down toward the hull. The deck where Freedoms expect strong shear loads will receive little loading at all in a stayed rig. Stayed rigs require very strong attachment points for the stays. This is not just a matter of backing plates as these loads must be transferred down to the keel from there. But it doesn’t stop there - the loads from stays don’t just disappear at the chainplates. The strong upwards loads from the stays, particularly the backstay and forestay, try to force a boat to bend - causing the infamous ‘smile’ even in boats designed for the loads. Freedoms are not at all designed to support this bending moment from bow to stern and from side to side - you could literally fold the boat in half.
[quote=iansan5653 post_id=56329 time=1724340861 user_id=6308]
Stayed vs unstayed rig support is not a simple matter of the hull being strong or not.
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Yes of course. I designed and built my first boat(29’ cutter) and am aware of the compression and tension challenges that will come with a conversion like this. As my first post indicated, i would prefer to consult with a proper Naval Architect who is familiar with this design. The reality here is that for $15-25k i can buy an F33. Can I build a hull like it (but made to handle stayed masts) cheaper than that? Absolutely not! So yes, much will have to be done, but it is still by far the cheapest, fastest option to get the boat I want.
If anyone wants to be actually helpful they could point me to another type of boat that would be better suited. Like maybe a Clearwater 35 (very hard to find).
It must have a swing keel, be 30-35’ 10,000-16,000lbs Displacement.
P.S. just to keep you olds riled up lol…i’m, also planning to change giant barn door rudder to twin spade rudders
P.S. just to keep you olds riled up lol…i’m, also planning to change giant barn door rudder to twin spade rudders
I have been reading this thread with interest. I was pretty sure you were going to get a lot of pushback… we all love our Freedoms for what they are warts and all .
Anyway by replacing the rudder with (presumably balanced) spade rudders, you will overcome one of the other objections in this thread! I have an F21 which has a balanced rudder which lifts and I notice that even if it tilts just a tad, loosing its balance, the boat becomes unmanageable.
I considered converting my 30 to tiller. It is an expensive job. I do my own work mostly but this is not something I would feel competent to DIY. I do have a colleague in the Singlehanded Sailing Society who did such a conversion, not trivial or cheap but worked out well. Here is a link to the thread. There are some good pics of the conversion process, scroll down to post #13 where Rick Elkins describes how it was done with pictures.
For what it’s worth… when I had my F33 I installed a wind vane. Instead of running the lines to the wheel I ran them to blocks on the transom and tail ends of the lines to cam cleats on top of the transom. Kept all lines out of the cockpit. Mechanical advantage made it very low effort to adjust and even use for emergency steering. I believe something similar could be used with the lines going from the rudder to a tiller through blocks to reduce effort. Could probably be used for dual rudders provided a solid linkage between them and strong enough rudder structure to attach the lines.
Twin rudders would be a real game changer! There’s no way to extend the standard transom hung one forward, due to the proximity of the propellor, without increasing the draft astern, which would make taking the ground impossible. If you could get enough strength into the twin arrangement, you could even consider drying out without support legs, which would be very handy in tidal waters.
The poor low speed manoeuvrability under power, inherent in twin rudder boats, might best be addressed with a bow-thruster – something sorely lacking on my boat in any sort of crosswind!
warts and all 