Posted by cruzanjumby (cruzanjumby@…>)
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.
Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium? Any recomendations on a supplier of either?ThanksMikeMike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)
The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is subject to abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less weight aloft.
Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight years ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard) The stick is doing well.
Frank
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I would
think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an engineer, so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard anecdotally that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.
Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free standing
masts)?
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli <myslo@y…>
wrote:
cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Mike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is subject to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less weight
aloft.Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard) The
stick is doing well.Frank
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Posted by ajlorman (ajlorman@…>)
I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000 Nonsuches out there
with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject to the same kind
of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had considered buying a
Nonsuch and during my research came across very little to suggest
that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the first Nonsuches were
built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any serious problem by
now.
Al Lorman
F-30
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:
Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I would
think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is
inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our
rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an engineer,
so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard anecdotally
that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free
standing
masts)?Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli
<myslo@y…>
wrote:cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Mike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is subject
to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less
weight
aloft.Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard)
The
stick is doing well.Frank
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Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
Al,
that’s a very good point. I’ve been to the top of a Nonsuch 33’s
mast, and it is built very similarly to my F40’s CF mast - that is,
like a telephone pole at the bottom, tapering at the top. I wonder
how the wall thicknesses compare, and how great a weight savings
there is in CF when you take into account the protection necessary
against chafing.
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ajlorman” <ajlorman@y…>
wrote:
I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000 Nonsuches out there
with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject to the same kind
of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had considered buying a
Nonsuch and during my research came across very little to suggest
that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the first Nonsuches
were
built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any serious problem by
now.Al Lorman
F-30— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I would
think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is
inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our
rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts
are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an engineer,
so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard anecdotally
that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free
standing
masts)?Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli
<myslo@y…>
wrote:cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Mike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is
subject
to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less
weight
aloft.Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight
years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard)
The
stick is doing well.Frank
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Posted by ajlorman (ajlorman@…>)
Lance:
I don’t know about wall thickness of the Nonsuch masts, but the
Nonsuch association has an incredibly detailed web site
(www.nonsuch.org)and I’m sure you could find out there. I’ve read
that a CF mast weighs about half of a comparable aluminum mast.
Al
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:
Al,
that’s a very good point. I’ve been to the top of a Nonsuch 33’s
mast, and it is built very similarly to my F40’s CF mast - that
is,
like a telephone pole at the bottom, tapering at the top. I wonder
how the wall thicknesses compare, and how great a weight savings
there is in CF when you take into account the protection necessary
against chafing.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ajlorman”
<ajlorman@y…>
wrote:I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000 Nonsuches out
there
with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject to the same
kind
of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had considered buying
a
Nonsuch and during my research came across very little to
suggest
that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the first Nonsuches
were
built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any serious problem
by
now.Al Lorman
F-30— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice
in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I
would
think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is
inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is
more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our
rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts
are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an
engineer,
so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard
anecdotally
that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on
the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free
standing
masts)?Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli
<myslo@y…>
wrote:cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Mike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using
carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is
subject
to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less
weight
aloft.Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight
years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale
boatyard)
The
stick is doing well.Frank
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
Lance, when my mainmast (1981, carbon fiber) went, I
took the calipher and measured the thickness of the
layup at the stump. (deck level) The thickness varied
between .125 and .28 io inches. A query to the
Freedom people, as to why the vast differences in the
thickness never got answered.
Obviously, this kind of layup in carbon fiber is
sufficiently strong. It does, however, not provide
much of a safety margin. The slightest chafe past the
paint and into the carbon will surely compromise its
strenght.
Since installing the aluminum stick in 97 I have
sailed this boat all over the caribbean, fulltime, and
in those eight years have had quite a few
opportunities to put the new rig to a few tests.
As to the flexing resulting untimately in metal
fatique, as was suggested here, time, I will tell.
When you add the huge price differential into the
equation, I just dont see where the carbon fiber
makes good sense, except for the go- fast application,
where that fraction of a know matters.
— lance_ryley <lance_ryley@…> wrote:
Al,
that’s a very good point. I’ve been to the top of a
Nonsuch 33’s
mast, and it is built very similarly to my F40’s CF
mast - that is,
like a telephone pole at the bottom, tapering at the
top. I wonder
how the wall thicknesses compare, and how great a
weight savings
there is in CF when you take into account the
protection necessary
against chafing.Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ajlorman”
<ajlorman@y…>
wrote:I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000
Nonsuches out there
with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject
to the same kind
of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had
considered buying a
Nonsuch and during my research came across very
little to suggest
that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the
first Nonsuches
were
built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any
serious problem by
now.Al Lorman
F-30— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com,
“lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my
first choice in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a
‘lifetime’ that I would
think would be reached much more quickly in a
rig that is
inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that
carbon fiber is more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses
we subject our
rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why
most cf masts
are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m
not an engineer,
so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also
heard anecdotally
that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their
aluminum spars.Can anyone with some more experience than myself
comment on the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other
material for free
standing
masts)?Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank
Minelli
<myslo@y…>
wrote:cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium
masts.Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or
aluminium?Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
Thanks
Mike
Mike:
I have never yet been able to see the merits
of using carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)The price is a multiple of the aluminum.
Carbon fiber is
subject
to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only
advantage is less
weight
aloft.Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They
furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33)
seven or eight
years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft.
Lauderdale boatyard)
The
stick is doing well.Frank
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?
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\
Posted by cruzanjumby (cruzanjumby@…>)
Thanks for the responses, am inclined to go back to aluminum really
due to the cost issue. If it wasn’t for that I’d look into CF, but
even then (not haveing any experience with them) I’d be concerned
about abrasion and having to constantly worry about it.
Besides P&K have you any other manufacturers that I could check out?
Thank
Mike
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ajlorman” <ajlorman@y…>
wrote:
\
I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000 Nonsuches out there
with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject to the same kind
of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had considered buying a
Nonsuch and during my research came across very little to suggest
that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the first Nonsuches were
built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any serious problem by
now.
\
\
Al Lorman
F-30
\
\
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:
\Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice in a
free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I would
think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is
inherently
designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is more
suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our
rigs
to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts are
coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an engineer,
so
I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard anecdotally
that
most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.
\
\
Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on the
relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free
standing
masts)?
\
\
Lance
\
\
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli
<myslo@y…>
wrote:
\
\
\
cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:
Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.
\
\
\
Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium?
\
\
\
Any recomendations on a supplier of either?
\
\
\
Thanks
\
\
\
Mike
\
\
\
Mike:
\
\
\
\
I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon
fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)
\
\
The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is subject
to
abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less
weight
aloft.
\
\
Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my
replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight years
ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard)
The
stick is doing well.
\
\
Frank
\
\
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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\
\
= "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hs079f/M=296967.5240014.6349583.
329
4
\
\
649/D=groups/S=1705065792:
HM/EXP=1091495214/A=2196952/R=0/id=flashurl
/
\SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?
redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var
link=“javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)”;var lrec_flashfile
\
\
= 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_1.
sw
f
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= "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hs079f/M=296967.5240014.6349583.
329
4
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649/D=groups/S=1705065792:
HM/EXP=1091495214/A=2196952/R=1/id=altimgur
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Posted by Brian Guptil (sailordude@…>)
Mike;
Please be aware that aluminum masts fail, Nonsuch masts fail and they have problems like the sail track pulling out which makes for a rather ugly factory fix. I have seen Nunsuchses with carbon masts as replacements. I have sailed across the Juan deFuca Straits side by side with a Nonsuch and he spent the remainder of the week re-attaching his sail track while I sailed on in a F36. The abrasion thing may be over-emphasized herein. Just don’t drill holes wily mille, don’t pound on it with large hammer and don’t run into bridges or power lines. Of course, you would not want to do any of these things with an aluminum mast either. Fatigue and corrosion are the enemies of aluminum but are largely non-existent in carbon. Commercial aircraft are being designed with higher and higher carbon content, replacing aluminum. etc.
For me, I would discount the value of a freedom with aluminum masts by the replacement costs of the rig(s).
But then, I am on my third freedom and would not have in any other way.
Brian Guptil http://www.brigup.com206-818-3203 sailordude@…1735 112th Ave. N.E.Bellevue, WA. 98004-3706
----- Original Message -----
From: cruzanjumby
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 11:17 AM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: F40 mast
Thanks for the responses, am inclined to go back to aluminum really due to the cost issue. If it wasn’t for that I’d look into CF, but even then (not haveing any experience with them) I’d be concerned about abrasion and having to constantly worry about it. Besides P&K have you any other manufacturers that I could check out?ThankMike— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “ajlorman” <ajlorman@y…> wrote:> I’m not an engineer, but there are about 1,000 Nonsuches out there > with free-standing aluminum masts that are subject to the same kind > of stresses as our carbon fiber masts. I had considered buying a > Nonsuch and during my research came across very little to suggest > that losing a mast was a major risk. Since the first Nonsuches were > built in 1980, I think we’d have heard about any serious problem by > now.> > Al Lorman> F-30> > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley” > <lance_ryley@y…> wrote:> > Not to be contrary, but aluminum wouldn’t be my first choice in a > > free-standing rig. flexing aluminum has a ‘lifetime’ that I would > > think would be reached much more quickly in a rig that is > inherently > > designed to flex. It would seem to me that carbon fiber is more > > suited to the day-to-day rigors of the stresses we subject our > rigs > > to. Yes, CF is subject to abrasion, which is why most cf masts are > > coated with paint or putty or even gel coat. I’m not an engineer, > so > > I could be way off-base with this, but I also heard anecdotally > that > > most Freedom mast failures have been in their aluminum spars.> > > > Can anyone with some more experience than myself comment on the > > relative merits of CF vs Al (or any other material for free > standing > > masts)?> > > > Lance> > > > — In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Frank Minelli > <myslo@y…> > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > cruzanjumby <cruzanjumby@y…> wrote:> > > Looking to replacing original F40 aluminium masts.> > > > > > > > > Any recomendations pro/cons on carbon fiber or aluminium? > > > > > > > > > Any recomendations on a supplier of either?> > > > > > > > > Thanks> > > > > > > > > Mike> > > > > > > > > Mike:> > > > > > > > > > > > I have never yet been able to see the merits of using carbon > > fiber for masts. (freestanding or not)> > > > > > The price is a multiple of the aluminum. Carbon fiber is subject > to > > abrasion and chafing damage. About the only advantage is less > weight > > aloft.> > > > > > Try P&& K pole products of New Jersey. They furnished my > > replacement main mast (aluminum, Freedom 33) seven or eight years > > ago, on time and on budget. ($3500, fob Ft. Lauderdale boatyard) > The > > stick is doing well.> > > > > > Frank> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT> > > var lrec_target=“_top”;var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] > > > = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hs079f/M=296967.5240014.6349583.329> 4> > > 649/D=groups/S=1705065792:HM/EXP=1091495214/A=2196952/R=0/id=flashurl> /> > SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?> > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var > > link=“javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)”;var lrec_flashfile > > > = ‘http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_1.sw> f> > ?clickTAG=’+link+‘’;var lrec_altURL > > > = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hs079f/M=296967.5240014.6349583.329> 4> > > 649/D=groups/S=1705065792:HM/EXP=1091495214/A=2196952/R=1/id=altimgur> l> > /SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?> > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var > > lrec_altimg > > > = “http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_> 0> > 61504.jpg”;var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;> > > > > > ---------------------------------> > > Yahoo! Groups Links> > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomyachts2003/> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:> > > freedomyachts2003-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service.
Posted by Dave_Benjamin (dave_benjamin@…>)
For me, I would discount the value of a freedom with aluminum
masts by the replacement costs of the rig(s).But then, I am on my third freedom and would not have in any other
way.
I think Brian is on to something. The original 40’s had aluminum
masts. They sell for a lot less money than 40 with carbon fiber. If
you convert over to aluminum you will undoubtedly add a lot of
weight that wasn’t really intended to be there. Does anyone know if
the rig height of the aluminum masted 40’s is less than that of the
carbon fiber ones?
Posted by Frank Minelli (myslo@…>)
The rig hight, Dave, is what you specify when ordering the (aluminum) stick. Dave_Benjamin <dave_benjamin@…> wrote:
For me, I would discount the value of a freedom with aluminum masts by the replacement costs of the rig(s).> > But then, I am on my third freedom and would not have in any other way.> I think Brian is on to something. The original 40’s had aluminum masts. They sell for a lot less money than 40 with carbon fiber. If you convert over to aluminum you will undoubtedly add a lot of weight that wasn’t really intended to be there. Does anyone know if the rig height of the aluminum masted 40’s is less than that of the carbon fiber ones?