Freedom 27 (?) - Any view, reviews, info

Lorman_Alvin_J · May 7, 2007, 2:43pm

Posted by Lorman, Alvin J. (ajlorman@…>)

The Freedom 29 was a shortened version of the Hoyt-designed Freedom 32. It shared many of Hoyt’s design cues, and so is also similar to the 25.

Al Lorman
F30Ab Initio

-----Original Message-----From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail SchillerSent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:32 AMTo: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com; freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Freedom 27 (?) - Any view, reviews, info

Just to drive the Freedom archeologists further crazy, There was a Freedom 29 that had a cockpit molding that closely resembles that of the F-25. It also had the same high, very comfortable F-25 seatbacks, and outboard rudder with tiller. I don’t know how many of these were built, but ‘twas a nice looking boat. HermAt 01:15 AM 5/7/2007, Medium Al wrote:>That has to be a stretched and raised F25. The F21 and F25 are a bit>short on boyance in the hind quarters - The 21 waterline is almost at>the transom and I think the 25 is similar. With four people in the>cockpit is is tail heavy. Add a sugescoop and you get some lift and>since the F25 is already 25’8" you easily get to 27’. Look at the>cockpitsole outline on the drawing on yachtworld:><http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?>http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?>&photo=2&boat_id=1370333&ybw=&boatname=27%>27+Freedom+27&photo_revised_date=1178283333000&photo_name=Picture+%232>it shows a telltale sign of an embedded F25 cockpit mold.>>The house on the boat has an ugly seam 6 inches from the deck mold. It>looks like the basically took a chainsaw to the Hoyt house and added>the extra headroom with a taller dog house.>>Now it might still be a good boat. The extra waterline can only help>and the windage might not be a big deal because the deck is faily low>to begin with. Standing headroom in a lightweight boat is a streatch>but it could work.>>The F28 is a “clean sheet” Mull design where the settes are only>emergency bunks. One person sleep with their feet in the wetlocker the>other with their feet on/under the chart table or whatever it is. That>gets you sleeping for 3 pretty tall people and two kids.>>I can post an F28 Specsheet with line drawings and an F25 brochure>later in the week.>>

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James_Driebeek · May 7, 2007, 6:41pm

Posted by James Driebeek (jim3bk@…>)

I have about 8 extra pictures of the Swiss F 27 Evergreen, if anybody
is interested I can forward them. The boat is set up as a motorsailer
with wheel and engine controls inside to port. Evergren does not seem
to have a head.

Jim Driebeek

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, Herman and Gail Schiller
<hschiller2@…> wrote:

I went to Yachtworld and did a search on Freedom 27 (your message’s
URL didn’t lead me to the boat you described. However, there is a
rather nice “Freedom 27” named Evergreen also available. It does
have
many Freedom 25 characteristics, but with a rather nice looking and
larger doghouse. It may be that some Freedom-affiliated boatbuilder
created these custom versions, some of which are quite ugly and
others wholesome. Herm

At 01:15 AM 5/7/2007, Medium Al wrote:

That has to be a stretched and raised F25. The F21 and F25 are a
bit
short on boyance in the hind quarters - The 21 waterline is almost
at
the transom and I think the 25 is similar. With four people in the
cockpit is is tail heavy. Add a sugescoop and you get some lift and
since the F25 is already 25’8" you easily get to 27’. Look at the
cockpitsole outline on the drawing on yachtworld:
<http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?
&photo=2&boat_id=1370333&ybw=&boatname=27%
27+Freedom+27&photo_revised_date=1178283333000&photo_name=Picture+%
232
it shows a telltale sign of an embedded F25 cockpit mold.

The house on the boat has an ugly seam 6 inches from the deck
mold. It
looks like the basically took a chainsaw to the Hoyt house and
added
the extra headroom with a taller dog house.

Now it might still be a good boat. The extra waterline can only
help
and the windage might not be a big deal because the deck is faily
low
to begin with. Standing headroom in a lightweight boat is a
streatch
but it could work.

The F28 is a “clean sheet” Mull design where the settes are only
emergency bunks. One person sleep with their feet in the wetlocker
the
other with their feet on/under the chart table or whatever it is.
That
gets you sleeping for 3 pretty tall people and two kids.

I can post an F28 Specsheet with line drawings and an F25 brochure
later in the week.

Payne_Doug · May 7, 2007, 7:02pm

Posted by Payne, Doug (doug.payne@…>)

Some comments on the Freedom 29. I have
never been aboard one, but have seen lots of pictures. It appears to me to be a
little jewel of the Freedom fleet, all the great features and design of the popular
Hoyt 32, just a junior version. Private aft cabin, a feature my later Mull 28 doesn’t have, aft head leaving good room in
the Salon and v berth cabin. Best news is they are $20k or less, so they seem a
great value if you can find one. The Mull 28’s
are in the low $30’s. There is a Hoyt 29 for sale now located in Chicago on Yacht World.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Douglas M. Payne
Managing Partner - Dallas Ft. Worth
Tatum, LLC
5956 Sherry Lane
Suite 1000 PMB 101
Dallas, TX
75225
office ••• 972.200.1555
mobile ••• 972.953.8065
fax ••• 972.200.1349
doug.payne@…
www.tatumllc.com

From: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com [mailto:freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail Schiller
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:32 AM
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com;
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [freedomyachts2003]
Re: Freedom 27 (?) - Any view, reviews, info

Just to drive the Freedom archeologists further crazy,
There was a
Freedom 29 that had a cockpit molding that closely resembles that of
the F-25. It also had the same high, very comfortable F-25 seatbacks,
and outboard rudder with tiller. I don’t know how many of these were
built, but 'twas a nice looking boat. Herm

At 01:15 AM 5/7/2007, Medium Al wrote:

That has to be a stretched and raised F25. The F21 and F25 are a bit
short on boyance in the hind quarters - The 21 waterline is almost at
the transom and I think the 25 is similar. With four people in the
cockpit is is tail heavy. Add a sugescoop and you get some lift and
since the F25 is already 25’8" you easily get to 27’. Look at the
cockpitsole outline on the drawing on yachtworld:
<http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?>http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?
&photo=2&boat_id=1370333&ybw=&boatname=27%
27+Freedom+27&photo_revised_date=1178283333000&photo_name=Picture+%232
it shows a telltale sign of an embedded F25 cockpit mold.

The house on the boat has an ugly seam 6 inches from the deck mold. It
looks like the basically took a chainsaw to the Hoyt house and added
the extra headroom with a taller dog house.

Now it might still be a good boat. The extra waterline can only help
and the windage might not be a big deal because the deck is faily low
to begin with. Standing headroom in a lightweight boat is a streatch
but it could work.

The F28 is a “clean sheet” Mull
design where the settes are only
emergency bunks. One person sleep with their feet in the wetlocker the
other with their feet on/under the chart table or whatever it is. That
gets you sleeping for 3 pretty tall people and two kids.

I can post an F28 Specsheet with line drawings and an F25 brochure
later in the week.

Attachment: (image/gif) image001.gif [not stored]

markmyatt · May 7, 2007, 7:10pm

Posted by markmyatt (mark@…>)

Herm,

You write:

I went to Yachtworld and did a search on Freedom 27 (your
message’s URL didn’t lead me to the boat you described. However,
there is a rather nice “Freedom 27” named Evergreen also
available. It does have many Freedom 25 characteristics, but
with a rather nice looking and larger doghouse. It may be that
some Freedom-affiliated boatbuilder created these custom
versions, some of which are quite ugly and
others wholesome.

This one has several features in common with the one I looked at
(similar, as far as I can see, mast position, alloy mast, same
cockpit layout). The coachroof (doghouse) is different and is the
transom / stern.

I contact Freedom Yachts and they say that there was never any such
boat as a Freedom 27 … which is odd because Mauch’s lists one from
them (still can’t find anyone with a copy of this - vol III in case
anyone has it). I contacted the broker and they say they have a bill
of sale for the boat from Freedom Yachts on their letterhead and a
fax talking of a Freedom 27 (hull number 2) at Southampton Boat Show
in 1989 and of unspecified modifications to hull number 3 made at
the request of the first owner. I think this might have been a show
boat that never went into series production. 1990 was a bad time for
boat builders here because of high (luxury) tax and a property
crash.

I also find references to a Freedom 27 being regularly placed in
club races in Southampton.

I think I will go forward at this time and get a survey whilst
making noises about the boat’s designer and builder to the broker.

Best wishes,

Mark

ABC · May 8, 2007, 8:47am

Posted by ABC (oldbrochan@…>)

Mark,

You have not mentioned boat names however on the
assumption that you are talking about ‘Prelude’, she’s
a UK designed and constructed boat, built in 1990 by
Freedom Yachts UK (FYUK)who, at that time, were, I
believe, West Country based.

FYUK adapted Freedom Yachts USA designs to meet
European needs - for example UK built F25’s featured a
lifting keel/rudder whereas American built 25’s had a
fixed keel/rudder a modification possibly brought
about by the number of drying harbours here or the
relative absence of marinas?

In amongst my Freedom papers, I have found a sales
sheet for ‘Prelude’, dating from 1995 or 1996 (I have
a small note to the effect that the boat was withdrawn
from the market on 18 November 1996). Incidentally
the sales sheet indicates three “asking prices” -
starting at £29,250 then reduced to £27,250 and lastly
£21,500. The rapid drop in asking price is
interesting.

In 1995/1996 ‘Prelude’ was being marketed by Ancasta’s
Plymouth Office (01752 255740) but with viewing on the
East Coast through Sussex Yacht Sales. I would
suggest that your best bet is to try and contact
Ancasta, who were the official Freedom UK/Europe
agents for many years, with their Brian Butler being
the acknowledged UK Freedom guru - if he’s still
around he can perhaps finally sort out the history of
this boat for you.

Failing this you might try contacting John Oakeley
(023 8040 2484) as he was heavily involved with FYUK
for many years.

If you do manage to speak to either Brian Butler or
John Oakley and establish the history of this boat,
I’m sure all on this board would love to know the
outcome of your discussions/findings.

Happy hunting.

Regards

Dave

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markmyatt · May 8, 2007, 9:42am

Posted by markmyatt (mark@…>)

Dave,

You write:

You have not mentioned boat names however on the
assumption that you are talking about ‘Prelude’,

That is the one.

she’s
a UK designed and constructed boat, built in 1990 by
Freedom Yachts UK (FYUK)who, at that time, were, I
believe, West Country based.

FYUK adapted Freedom Yachts USA designs to meet
European needs - for example UK built F25’s featured a
lifting keel/rudder whereas American built 25’s had a
fixed keel/rudder a modification possibly brought
about by the number of drying harbours here or the
relative absence of marinas?

That makes a great deal of sense.

In amongst my Freedom papers, I have found a sales
sheet for ‘Prelude’, dating from 1995 or 1996 (I have
a small note to the effect that the boat was withdrawn
from the market on 18 November 1996). Incidentally
the sales sheet indicates three “asking prices” -
starting at £29,250 then reduced to £27,250 and lastly
£21,500. The rapid drop in asking price is
interesting.

And then it dropped further.

I have spoken with several brokers about these boats and they say
they are very difficult to sell (only the early model 35s seem to
sell and then only slowly). They say that if anyone comes to see one
they wince at the lack of stays (a plus point in my mind) and the
unconventional sailplan. It seems that only highly strung sloops
with massive beam aft sell well. I think that Prelude was on the
market this time for two years and I was perhaps the only person to
even come to see her.

In 1995/1996 ‘Prelude’ was being marketed by Ancasta’s
Plymouth Office (01752 255740) but with viewing on the
East Coast through Sussex Yacht Sales. I would
suggest that your best bet is to try and contact
Ancasta, who were the official Freedom UK/Europe
agents for many years, with their Brian Butler being
the acknowledged UK Freedom guru - if he’s still
around he can perhaps finally sort out the history of
this boat for you.

Thanks … this one was with Ancaster last month. It caught my eye
but I was looking for a junk rigged boat. I was in the vicinity of
Prelude after looking at a couple of disappointing boats around
Portsmouth so I thought I’d take a look at her. By that time she had
been moved to Peters Opal by Ancaster themselves on the grounds that
they might have some luck with selling her.

Failing this you might try contacting John Oakeley
(023 8040 2484) as he was heavily involved with FYUK
for many years.

If you do manage to speak to either Brian Butler or
John Oakley and establish the history of this boat,
I’m sure all on this board would love to know the
outcome of your discussions/findings.

Thanks. This is very useful. Will let you know how it works out.
Hopefully all will be well and I can report on how she sails.

Best wishes,

Mark

markmyatt · May 8, 2007, 4:06pm

Posted by markmyatt (mark@…>)

Dave,

Your tip regarding Brian Butler proved a good one.

Prelude is a Freedom 27. This is a Freedom design adapted for the
European market and built under license in the Isle of Man. Brian
spoke highly of the F27 and had a lot of documentation on Prelude.
It appears that the wing keel was more popular than the fin keel
because it made the boat a little stiffer. The alloy mast was an
option because carbon masts were, at that time, very much more
expensive than alloy (more than 10x) and, no surprise, alloy was
what sold. The mast is not as stiff as the carbon mast … I see
this as no big drawback as it lends the sail a tendency to spill
wind in gusts but its probably (certainly!) not as strong.
Construction is to the same standard as Freedom US yachts (he
suggested that it might be better due to strict quality control that
FY required from licensed builders).

His view on the slipping sale price matched mine … the Freedom
designs are just too weird for the UK market. I haven’t seem any
late model (Mull) Freedoms here at all, just the original F35.

If you build a better mousetrap the English leisure sailor will
mutter that it just cannot work. When I had a junk-rigged schooner
people would say she could not possibly sail, won’t point, the mast
will fall over, &c. and when you showed then an instant reef, an
elegant gybe, a simple tack, or weathercocking in squally gust they
would (just about) claim that it was a trick done with smoke and
mirrors.

I think I might have found that rarest of animals, the bargain
second-hand boat. Famous last words …

I think I will risk it and buy it subject to a decent survey. If
anyone is interested I will post some pictures and let you know how
well she really goes. That will probably be after a few idiot
questions about how the jib is rigged and what bit goes where.

Thanks to everyone for their help on this one.

Best wishes,

Mark

ABC · May 9, 2007, 8:10am

Posted by ABC (oldbrochan@…>)

Mark,

Delighted that you made contact with Brian Butler - I
wasn’t sure if he was still around but clearly he is.

As regards rigging the boat, go to the files section
of this BB and download the manual - it will give you
more than enough information to get you started. Also
as/when you get the boat surveyed, get to work with
your digital camera and photograph EVERYTHING that you
see - that way you build up an excellent reference
source for the future.

Will look forward to your progress reports and in the
meantime here’s to a successful survey and welcoming
you to the discerning band of UK/European Freedom
owners.

Regards

Dave

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leighjotom · May 15, 2007, 1:15am

Posted by leighjotom (talexand@…>)

Thanks Mark. I will try and get that brochure scanned in this week.

Tom

— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “markmyatt” <mark@…>
wrote:

Tom,

You write:

I do have a complete Freedom line brochure from app 1986 that
shows what was finaly relased as the Mull 28 called the Freeodm
27. As a Mull 28 owner, I find that little bit of marketing
history interesting. My guess is that he boat was too expensive
to compete as a “27”!

I have spent some time investigating this but with little to show
for it. I found something like you have above. I also found that
Mauch’s Boat Review lists a Freedom 27 but they publish to brokers
(in the main) and have no on-line database. Mystic Seaport lists
(in
their plans):
Freedom 27 auxiliary sloop  Designer, Freedom Yachts
International, Ltd.; Design number unknown; Builder,
Freedom Yachts International, Ltd.; Date made unknown
As a Henry A Scheel (Harry Scheel of the “Scheel Keel”) design but
has nothing but the above information. This boat (1990 for hull
number 003) is quite a late design for Scheel (he died in 1993,
still designing).

I have asked the broker to look in Mauch’s and to ask the vendor
for
the manual to confirm this as a real Freedom. Will let you know
what
I find out.

Best wishes,

Mark

markmyatt · May 15, 2007, 3:43pm

Posted by markmyatt (mark@…>)

Dave,

Just back from Switzerland … working not looking at Evergreen …
hence the delay in continuing the discussion.

You write:

Delighted that you made contact with Brian Butler - I
wasn’t sure if he was still around but clearly he is.

Yes. In the Plymouth office. I had met him before when I got back
from the Philippines and was looking around for a new boat.

As regards rigging the boat, go to the files section
of this BB and download the manual - it will give you
more than enough information to get you started.

Thanks. I had an aero-rig once which had no manual and no group like
this one. I rigged it as best I could. It looked OK and sailed OK. I
sailed it for a couple of seasons and then one day it dawned on me
exactly how it should be rigged. I re-rigged it and it did look
better but didn’t really sail much better. I suppose there is more
than one way to skin a cat.

I have been around a lot of rigs and should be able to get it to
work especially now I have the manual from this group. Freedoms
aren’t all that rare over here and I am sure that if I sail into a
harbour where a Freedom is moored advice will surely be at hand.

Also
as/when you get the boat surveyed, get to work with
your digital camera and photograph EVERYTHING that you
see - that way you build up an excellent reference
source for the future.

Good idea. The survey came back much as expected. A bit of wiring to
replace, some bolts to tighten, some washers to replace, some gel
coat repairs, anti-foul, polish, change the oil, wash the sails,
change some cord. Little more than a start of season fit-out really.
Oh, and I’ll get rid of the wheel and reinstate the tiller … just
my preference.

Will look forward to your progress reports and in the
meantime here’s to a successful survey and welcoming
you to the discerning band of UK/European Freedom
owners.

Thanks … and thanks to all on this group.

Best wishes,

Mark