Posted by malcolmfraser1947 (mgfraser@…>)
Hi Everyone,
My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom 45 as
a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years. We will
be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly crossing
the Atlantic to the Med.
Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?
Thank You,
Ieva & Malcolm Fraser
Posted by George E. Herchenroether (g.herk@…>)
I will be glad
to help you. And
the first piece of advice is buy it now and spend the next two years setting up
for you and learning all about it. It
took us about that long before we left for the south. Having said that, my mate chose the F45 and
is totally happy with it. I love it for the simplicity, and a long list
of handling and performance and maintenance reasons.
George
E. Herchenroether
4
Bush St
Newport, RI 02840
401.847.2028
401.338.5329
mobile
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Malcom
Cruising for 6 mo. a year for 12 years on my previous OI 41-6 ketch I constantly worried and constantly checked the 245 ( count them ) parts that could fail and lose a mast.Standing rigging replacement cost, no labour : 7000.00$. These rigs also houl in strong winds. I recall a friend, Nonsuch owner, coming aboard during a cold front in Exuma and asking me what that noise was. ! !
Boy do I ever like the simplicity of a well built free standing mast. Fewer worries
The 45’s do sail like crazy on the hook. This can be delt with by using 2 anchors at a large angle.
Andremalcolmfraser1947 <mgfraser@…> wrote:
Hi Everyone,My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom 45 as a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years. We will be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly crossing the Atlantic to the Med.Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?Thank You,Ieva & Malcolm FraserPost your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
Posted by Malcolm Fraser (mgfraser@…>)
Hi Andre & George,
Thank you both for replying!
There is so little info on stayless mast sailboats on the internet, how did you two decide to go this way?
I sail on Lake Ontario and have seen several Nonsuches but no Freedoms.
Some questions:
Did you go for the deep or wing keels?
How does it perform in big seas (upwind & downwind)?
I notice that the jib is self-tending, how have you enjoyed this aspect?
My wife and I would be living aboard, is there plenty of storage?
Are you aware of anyone who has crossed oceans with this boat?
Do the carbon fiber masts have a lifetime or do they last forever?
Would you ever go back to a stayed mast boat?
I am sure I will have many other questions, but this is a start.
Regards,
Ieva & Malcolm Fraser
Posted by goldbdan (goldbdan@…>)
Hi Malcolm:
There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality response
with more specific questions.
Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things
about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18
months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than
others. But that won’t stop me from opining. 
Kidding aside, we
are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not
totally out of the blue.
Positives:
The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living
space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the
main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit
compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows for
privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon and
retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft cabin
is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size range
with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal in
this area, but certainly no better.
Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all sides,
as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on our
boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.
The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing almost
too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no
racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will be
able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.
The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an
enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the cockpit
definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major plus in
a liveaboard.
The swim platform is very large and very useful.
The general construction quality and fit and finish is very
good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats
were built in the same factory by the very same workers and
supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings
(discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from
more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all of
them for the most part.
True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage, filing
cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great
workspace.
The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments.
Together they hold a lot of volume.
Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches, and
all but two of the portlights open.
Negatives:
I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware that
the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the boat
blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a
renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth.
Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.
Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is
something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a practical
matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of
manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our
thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the risk
of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was
better about routing out the coring around all thruhull penetrations
and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously
that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number it
might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or two
just to check.
The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the
price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in
lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.
The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think
the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for
water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased the
tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water
tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.
As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In
general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we
bought it.
Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.
DG
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “malcolmfraser1947”
<mgfraser@r…> wrote:
Hi Everyone,
My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom 45
as
a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years. We
will
be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly
crossing
the Atlantic to the Med.Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?
Thank You,
Ieva & Malcolm Fraser
Posted by lance_ryley (lance_ryley@…>)
I’ll add one comment and ask one question. First the comment:
The concern about a cored hull is definitely a valid one; however,
what I found in my first year living aboard was that I fared better
in terms of keeping a regular internal temperature of the boat than
some of my non-cored compatriots. I also seemed to have less problem
with condensation in lockers.
Now my question: It’s not clear from the F45 layout diagram what the
heads look like, and so far haven’t seen pictures of an F45 head in
any of the online “for sail” ads. Do either of the heads have a
separate shower, or does the entire compartment become the shower
(like on my F40?).
Just curious
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “goldbdan” <goldbdan@o…>
wrote:
Hi Malcolm:
There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality
response
with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things
about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18
months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than
others. But that won’t stop me from opining.
we
are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not
totally out of the blue.Positives:
The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living
space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the
main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit
compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows
for
privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon and
retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft
cabin
is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size
range
with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal
in
this area, but certainly no better.Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all
sides,
as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on
our
boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing
almost
too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no
racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will
be
able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an
enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the
cockpit
definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major plus
in
a liveaboard.The swim platform is very large and very useful.
The general construction quality and fit and finish is very
good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats
were built in the same factory by the very same workers and
supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings
(discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from
more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all
of
them for the most part.True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage,
filing
cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great
workspace.The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments.
Together they hold a lot of volume.Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches,
and
all but two of the portlights open.Negatives:
I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware
that
the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the
boat
blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a
renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth.
Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is
something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a
practical
matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of
manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our
thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the
risk
of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was
better about routing out the coring around all thruhull
penetrations
and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously
that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number
it
might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or
two
just to check.The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the
price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in
lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think
the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for
water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased
the
tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water
tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In
general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we
bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.
DG
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “malcolmfraser1947”
<mgfraser@r…> wrote:Hi Everyone,
My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom
45
as
a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years.
We
will
be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly
crossing
the Atlantic to the Med.Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?
Thank You,
Ieva & Malcolm Fraser
Posted by George E. Herchenroether (g.herk@…>)
The aft head has
a separate shower with seat.
George
E. Herchenroether
4
Bush St
Newport, RI 02840
401.847.2028
401.338.5329
mobile
Posted by goldbdan (goldbdan@…>)
As Herck noted, the aft head has a separate shower stall.
In terms of the cored hull, you are correct about some of its
positive properties. I was listing only the potential problems. But
you are right, if properly sealed, cored hulls are the way to go.
They are stronger, lighter, provide better sound, heat, and
moisture/condensation insulation. As core material technology and
building methods improve, cored hulls are and will continue to become
more prevalent. I suspect that we will live to see the day when
solid fiberglass hulls will be considered antiquated. Even today,
just about all catamarans are cored, J-Boats are cored, and there are
others that I can’t think of standing on one leg. If built and
maintained properly, cored hulls definitely is a superior design.
Those two “ifs” are pretty big “ifs” however.
DG
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “lance_ryley”
<lance_ryley@y…> wrote:
I’ll add one comment and ask one question. First the comment:
The concern about a cored hull is definitely a valid one; however,
what I found in my first year living aboard was that I fared better
in terms of keeping a regular internal temperature of the boat than
some of my non-cored compatriots. I also seemed to have less
problem
with condensation in lockers.Now my question: It’s not clear from the F45 layout diagram what
the
heads look like, and so far haven’t seen pictures of an F45 head in
any of the online “for sail” ads. Do either of the heads have a
separate shower, or does the entire compartment become the shower
(like on my F40?).Just curious
Lance
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “goldbdan”
<goldbdan@o…>
wrote:Hi Malcolm:
There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality
response
with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things
about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18
months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than
others. But that won’t stop me from opining.
we
are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not
totally out of the blue.Positives:
The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living
space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the
main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit
compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows
for
privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon
and
retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft
cabin
is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size
range
with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal
in
this area, but certainly no better.Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all
sides,
as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on
our
boat), so they just come off giving you great access to
everything.The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing
almost
too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is
no
racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will
be
able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an
enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the
cockpit
definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major
plus
in
a liveaboard.The swim platform is very large and very useful.
The general construction quality and fit and finish is very
good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats
were built in the same factory by the very same workers and
supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few
shortcomings
(discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from
more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all
of
them for the most part.True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage,
filing
cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great
workspace.The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments.
Together they hold a lot of volume.Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches,
and
all but two of the portlights open.Negatives:
I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware
that
the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the
boat
blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a
renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same
depth.
Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious
grounding.Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is
something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a
practical
matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of
manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our
thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the
risk
of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was
better about routing out the coring around all thruhull
penetrations
and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously
that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number
it
might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or
two
just to check.The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the
price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in
lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I
think
the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for
water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased
the
tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one
water
tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In
general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we
bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.
DG
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “malcolmfraser1947”
<mgfraser@r…> wrote:Hi Everyone,
My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used
Freedom
45
as
a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years.
We
will
be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly
crossing
the Atlantic to the Med.Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?
Thank You,
Ieva & Malcolm Fraser
Posted by Malcolm Fraser (mgfraser@…>)
Thanks DG!
My apologies for the generality of the questions.
I notice on the Freedom site it mentions that there is both a winged and deep keel. Do you know if many 45’s
were built with the deep keel (if any at all)? I notice on Yachtworld that keel draft ranges from 4’ 11" to 5’ 5’', but that may be just broker misinformation.
Regards,
Malcolm Fraser
----- Original Message -----
From: goldbdan
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:37 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Freedom 45
Hi Malcolm:There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality response with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18 months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than others. But that won’t stop me from opining. Kidding aside, we are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not totally out of the blue.Positives:1. The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows for privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon and retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft cabin is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size range with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal in this area, but certainly no better.2. Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all sides, as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on our boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.3. The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing almost too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will be able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.4. The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the cockpit definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major plus in a liveaboard.5. The swim platform is very large and very useful.6. The general construction quality and fit and finish is very good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats were built in the same factory by the very same workers and supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings (discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all of them for the most part.7. True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage, filing cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great workspace.8. The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments. Together they hold a lot of volume.9. Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches, and all but two of the portlights open.Negatives:1. I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware that the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the boat blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth. Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.2. Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a practical matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the risk of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was better about routing out the coring around all thruhull penetrations and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number it might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or two just to check.3. The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.4. The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased the tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.DG
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Malcom
On the East coat shoal draft ( draught ) in a real boon, on any boat. Less than 5 feet is good. That’s why they sold about 1000 O.I.41’s at 4 ft 3in draft. South of N.Y. State to the Turks and Caicos water is thin. These areas are where most cruisers wind up.
A light mast is also to be desired specially if it is in the bow. Otherwise, to support a heavy alloy mast in the bow the angle of entry is too great ( fat bow ), and the boat stops in head seas when going to weather. However, I must add that even if you have a boat that goes to weather like a 12 meter , chances are your body, or your companions will not ! So you wind up sailing freer that the boat can point, for relative comfort’s sake.
Freestanding rigs are great. Standing rigging on a compression mast should be completely replaced in salt water every 10 years or less. So far, composite free standing masts have fared no worse than the other even after over 25 years. World class race boats now have carbon masts. Yes, the ones with all the rigging.Three rigging replacements + 20,000$. Stayed mast come down , usually because one little part of a hundred breaks to no one’s fault. Properly designed and built freestand mast failures occur because someone carried to much sail for the conditions.
Self tending anything is the way to go if the sail area was high to start with. Reefing is easier than carrying many sails. If the wind is less than 10 kts, most cruisers are motoring anyway. Even cruising round the world , most will admit, reluctantly, that they motor half the time ! Need big new engine. One h.p. per 300 lbs of displacement is great. You will also see many cruisers with only one sail up. From a design standpoint it is best then if it’s the main, therefore you should have a big one like on a cat boat or the last generation of Freedoms.
I would only go back ( actually, I have one of each ) to a stayed rig if the boat had some very important to me design feature , and I could not get that type of hull with an unstayed mast. The bigger the boat, the more I want a freestanding composite mast.
I have owned and cruised on seven different boats, ultra light to heavy displacement, raced a lot, north and south, stayed and unstayed rigs, sloops, cutters, ketch, full keel , centerboard or fin keels for a compounded full time of nine years.
Andre.goldbdan <goldbdan@…> wrote:
Hi Malcolm:There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality response with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18 months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than others. But that won’t stop me from opining. Kidding aside, we are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not totally out of the blue.Positives:1. The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows for privacy when you want it (just leave others in
the main saloon and retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft cabin is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size range with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal in this area, but certainly no better.2. Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all sides, as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on our boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.3. The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing almost too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will be able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.4. The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the cockpit definitely serves to expand the
cabin, which again is a major plus in a liveaboard.5. The swim platform is very large and very useful.6. The general construction quality and fit and finish is very good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats were built in the same factory by the very same workers and supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings (discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all of them for the most part.7. True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage, filing cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great workspace.8. The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments. Together they hold a lot of volume.9. Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches, and all but two of the portlights
open.Negatives:1. I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware that the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the boat blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth. Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.2. Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a practical matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the risk of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was better about routing out the coring around all thruhull penetrations and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously that’s
what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number it might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or two just to check.3. The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.4. The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased the tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.DG— In
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “malcolmfraser1947” <mgfraser@r…> wrote:> Hi Everyone,> > My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom 45 as > a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years. We will > be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly crossing > the Atlantic to the Med.> > Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?> > Thank You,> > Ieva & Malcolm FraserPost your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
Posted by andre laviolette (andrelaviolette@…>)
Malcom
On the East coat shoal draft ( draught ) in a real boon, on any boat. Less than 5 feet is good. That’s why they sold about 1000 O.I.41’s at 4 ft 3in draft. South of N.Y. State to the Turks and Caicos water is thin. These areas are where most cruisers wind up.
A light mast is also to be desired specially if it is in the bow. Otherwise, to support a heavy alloy mast in the bow the angle of entry is too great ( fat bow ), and the boat stops in head seas when going to weather. However, I must add that even if you have a boat that goes to weather like a 12 meter , chances are your body, or your companions will not ! So you wind up sailing freer that the boat can point, for relative comfort’s sake.
Freestanding rigs are great. Standing rigging on a compression mast should be completely replaced in salt water every 10 years or less. So far, composite free standing masts have fared no worse than the other even after over 25 years. World class race boats now have carbon masts. Yes, the ones with all the rigging.Three rigging replacements + 20,000$. Stayed mast come down , usually because one little part of a hundred breaks to no one’s fault. Properly designed and built freestand mast failures occur because someone carried to much sail for the conditions.
Self tending anything is the way to go if the sail area was high to start with. Reefing is easier than carrying many sails. If the wind is less than 10 kts, most cruisers are motoring anyway. Even cruising round the world , most will admit, reluctantly, that they motor half the time ! Need big new engine. One h.p. per 300 lbs of displacement is great. You will also see many cruisers with only one sail up. From a design standpoint it is best then if it’s the main, therefore you should have a big one like on a cat boat or the last generation of Freedoms.
I would only go back ( actually, I have one of each ) to a stayed rig if the boat had some very important to me design feature , and I could not get that type of hull with an unstayed mast. The bigger the boat, the more I want a freestanding composite mast.
I have owned and cruised on seven different boats, ultra light to heavy displacement, raced a lot, north and south, stayed and unstayed rigs, sloops, cutters, ketch, full keel , centerboard or fin keels for a compounded full time of nine years.
Andre.goldbdan <goldbdan@…> wrote:
Hi Malcolm:There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality response with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18 months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than others. But that won’t stop me from opining. Kidding aside, we are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not totally out of the blue.Positives:1. The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows for privacy when you want it (just leave others in
the main saloon and retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft cabin is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size range with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal in this area, but certainly no better.2. Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all sides, as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on our boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.3. The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing almost too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will be able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.4. The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the cockpit definitely serves to expand the
cabin, which again is a major plus in a liveaboard.5. The swim platform is very large and very useful.6. The general construction quality and fit and finish is very good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats were built in the same factory by the very same workers and supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings (discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all of them for the most part.7. True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage, filing cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great workspace.8. The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments. Together they hold a lot of volume.9. Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches, and all but two of the portlights
open.Negatives:1. I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware that the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the boat blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth. Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.2. Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a practical matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the risk of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was better about routing out the coring around all thruhull penetrations and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously that’s
what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number it might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or two just to check.3. The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.4. The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased the tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.DG— In
freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “malcolmfraser1947” <mgfraser@r…> wrote:> Hi Everyone,> > My wife and I are considering going stayless with a used Freedom 45 as > a liveaboard cruising boat,when we retire in a couple of years. We will > be doing the Carribbean first (via Bermuda) and also possibly crossing > the Atlantic to the Med.> > Are there any 45 owners on this list that can help us out?> > Thank You,> > Ieva & Malcolm FraserPost your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
Posted by goldbdan (goldbdan@…>)
Malcolm:
No need to apologize at all. (Sorry if my comment came off kind of
sharp; that wasn’t intended.)
According to Paul Dennis, Freemdom built only one of these boats with
the deep draft. The specs do say 4’11", but I’ll tell you, I
measured mine from the waterline to the base of the keel, and I came
up with 5’6". Not sure if others have experience with that issue.
Best,
DG
— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Malcolm Fraser”
<mgfraser@r…> wrote:
Thanks DG!
My apologies for the generality of the questions.I notice on the Freedom site it mentions that there is both a
winged and deep keel. Do you know if many 45’s
were built with the deep keel (if any at all)? I notice on
Yachtworld that keel draft ranges from 4’ 11" to 5’ 5’', but that may
be just broker misinformation.Regards,
Malcolm Fraser
----- Original Message -----
From: goldbdan
To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:37 PM
Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Freedom 45Hi Malcolm:
There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality
response
with more specific questions.Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things
about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18
months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than
others. But that won’t stop me from opining.
we
are in the midst of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not
totally out of the blue.Positives:
The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living
space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the
main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit
compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows
for
privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon
and
retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft
cabin
is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size
range
with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal
in
this area, but certainly no better.Engine access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all
sides,
as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on
our
boat), so they just come off giving you great access to
everything.The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing
almost
too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is
no
racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will
be
able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an
enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the
cockpit
definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major
plus in
a liveaboard.The swim platform is very large and very useful.
The general construction quality and fit and finish is very
good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats
were built in the same factory by the very same workers and
supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few
shortcomings
(discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from
more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all
of
them for the most part.True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage,
filing
cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great
workspace.The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments.
Together they hold a lot of volume.Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches,
and
all but two of the portlights open.Negatives:
I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware
that
the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the
boat
blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a
renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same
depth.
Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious
grounding.Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is
something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a
practical
matter all decks are cored on just about all boats, regardless of
manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our
thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the
risk
of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was
better about routing out the coring around all thruhull
penetrations
and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously
that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number
it
might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or
two
just to check.The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the
price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in
lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I
think
the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for
water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased
the
tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one
water
tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In
general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we
bought it.Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.
DG
Posted by Jeff Chale (jwchale@…>)
There was a F-45 with deep draft (I believe 7’2") for sale in the northwest until just recently. It was a 1991 and had teak decks and extended storage lockers on the aft deck. Nice boat.goldbdan <goldbdan@…> wrote:
Malcolm:No need to apologize at all. (Sorry if my comment came off kind of sharp; that wasn’t intended.)According to Paul Dennis, Freemdom built only one of these boats with the deep draft. The specs do say 4’11", but I’ll tell you, I measured mine from the waterline to the base of the keel, and I came up with 5’6". Not sure if others have experience with that issue.Best,DG— In freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com, “Malcolm Fraser” <mgfraser@r…> wrote:> Thanks DG!> My apologies for the generality of the questions.> > I notice on the Freedom site it mentions that there is both a winged and deep keel. Do you know if many 45’s> were built with the deep keel (if any at all)? I notice on Yachtworld that keel draft ranges from 4’ 11" to 5’ 5’',
but that may be just broker misinformation.> > Regards,> > Malcolm Fraser> ----- Original Message ----- > From: goldbdan > To: freedomyachts2003@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:37 PM> Subject: [freedomyachts2003] Re: Freedom 45> > > Hi Malcolm:> > There are several 45 owners. You might get a higher quality response > with more specific questions.> > Just in general, however, I think you will hear very good things > about the 45. We have owned ours for just one season (about 18 > months now), so my experience with the boat probably is less than > others. But that won’t stop me from opining. Kidding aside, we > are in the midst
of a fairly significant refit, so my view is not > totally out of the blue.> > Positives:> > 1. The interior layout is great. A tremendous amount of living > space, which is necessary for a liveaboard. Likewise, though the > main saloon is open and airy, the interior is a little bit > compartmentalized, which is good in this case, as it still allows for > privacy when you want it (just leave others in the main saloon and > retreat to the aft cabin). In terms of pure comfort, the aft cabin > is just awesome. I have yet to see another boat in this size range > with a more comfortable cabin. The Hunter 450 probably is equal in > this area, but certainly no better.> > 2. Engine
access is phenomenal. You can get at it from all sides, > as the doors all the way around are on barrel hinges (at least on our > boat), so they just come off giving you great access to everything.> > 3. The freestanding rig and self-tending jib making sailing almost > too easy. The performance of the boat is very good, but she is no > racer. Nevertheless, she is very enjoyable to sail, and you will be > able to sail in a wide range of wind conditions.> > 4. The cockpit is very large and comfortable. If you have an > enclosure or at least a good bimini/dodger arrangement, the cockpit > definitely serves to expand the cabin, which again is a major plus in > a liveaboard.> > 5. The swim
platform is very large and very useful.> > 6. The general construction quality and fit and finish is very > good. If you investigate further you will learn that these boats > were built in the same factory by the very same workers and > supervisors that built Alden Yachts. There are a few shortcomings > (discussed below), but not many. I’ve had a few boats, some from > more reputable builders, some less. The Freedom stands up to all of > them for the most part.> > 7. True navigation station with seat, proper chart storage, filing > cabinet, plenty of room for instruments, and generally a great > workspace.> > 8. The fridge and freezer are in two separate compartments. > Together
they hold a lot of volume.> > 9. Ventilation is great. There are 5 opening overhead hatches, and > all but two of the portlights open.> > > Negatives:> > 1. I haven’t yet had a problem with this, but I am very aware that > the rudder and keel are at the same depth. When viewed with the boat > blocked it looks like the rudder is deeper, but Paul Dennis (a > renowned Freedom expert) assures me that they are the same depth. > Not earthshattering, but could be a problem in a serious grounding.> > 2. Cored hull. This isn’t a negative per se, but it just is > something else to watch, just like a cored deck (and as a practical > matter all decks are cored on just about all boats,
regardless of > manufacturer). We are in the process of replacing all of our > thruhulls, and in a few the bedding wasn’t great, increasing the risk > of leaks into the hull core. On the later models the factory was > better about routing out the coring around all thruhull penetrations > and backfilling with epoxy so as to obviate this issue (obviously > that’s what we are doing now). If you buy an earlier hull number it > might not be the worst thing in the world to pull a thruhull or two > just to check.> > 3. The vestigal jib makes sailing easy (as noted above), but the > price is less sail area. This boat is not slow at all, but in > lighter air you will wish you had more sail area.> > 4.
The amount of tankage is adequate, but just adequate. I think > the standard configuration (which is what we have) is 130 USG for > water and 65 USG for fuel. I am aware that others have increased the > tankage, either by adding tanks under a setee, coverting one water > tank to fuel and installing a water maker, or other options.> > As you can see, the negatives are not particularly serious. In > general we absolutely love the boat and are very pleased that we > bought it.> > Goo luck in your search. Let us know how it plays out.> > DG
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