Fuel cleaning

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

George & Bob

A thought or two on your “cheapie” vacuum gauges.

Make sure you keep the right size wrench “handy” (tethered to the
bulkhead beside the filter, for instance). You will otherwise be
unable to adequately tighten (or remove) the filter top without
torquing the gauge off of the fitting.

Vacuum gauges are designed for vacuum, although some (likely not the
cheapies) are also able to withstand pressure. If you have installed
an electric fuel pump upstream of the filter (for the purpose
of “loading the filter” and bleeding the injectors without tickling
the manual fuel pump, for instance), then you will be putting
pressure into the bourdon tube of the vacuum gauge and will likely
rupture it (on the cheapies, anyway).

The Racor gauges are fluid damped (silicone, I believe). You can
obtain other gauges that are damped, but not at this price. The
damping does a couple of things…It keeps the needle of the gauge
from vibrating over a range due to the vibrations transmitted to the
gauge via the bulkhead/fuel lines/whatever. It also damps the
resonance of the bourdon tube (which is hanging in air in your
cheapie gauge). This vibration of the tube, over time, will lead to
the failure of the very thin brass in the tube, at which point you
will be sucking air into the engine through the resulting crack.

Since you’ve already ordered these, I suggest that you (non-
destructively) open one of them up before you install it and ask
yourself if you really want the continued operation of your engine
(at a potentially critical time) to hinge on the construction of this
flimsy piece of equipment. If the answer is “yes”, make sure that you
hang on to your T-Handle so that you can locate it and re-install it
when failure does occur (hopefully not too close to rocks or jetties,
since you’ll still have to bleed the system afterward in order to
restart your engine).

Apropos of another ongoing discussion, this would also clearly be the
weak point in the fuel system in the event of any type of engine
compartment fire as well.

Some things are WORTH the cost.



— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Bob <rweeks6508@…> wrote:

These have the right screw threads as the RACOR T-Handle?? Save a
lot
of money I like it!

Bob

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 AM, george huffman wrote:

Vacuum Gauge
http://www.drillspot.com/products/67238/Generic_5WZ18_Vacuum_Gauge

The above link to an affordable vacuum gauge. I just ordered 4 of
them.
It doesn’t have the fancy little dial index like the Racor but I
can buy
a lot of grease pencils for a hundred dollars!

George

— On Sun, 11/30/08, Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> wrote:
From: Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:08 PM

http://www.drillspot.com/products/67238/Generic_5WZ18_Vacuum_Gauge

http://www.drillspot.com/products/67238/Generic_5WZ18_Vacuum_Gauge

I’ve always filtered my fuel when it goes into the tank; I thought
that
everyone did. Mine are homemade, but the West product looks better.
Roger

----- Original Message -----
From: Rees Midgley mailto:rmidgley@...
mailto:rmidgley@...
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:38 PM
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com>
Has anyone used a fuel filter funnel between the fuel hose and
the
fuel port on the deck? West Marine sells one that will separate
water from fuel and pass 5 gal per minute of fuel through a 100
micron filter. I just bought one and will try it this winter in
the BVI
(10" H x 8-1/2" diam, $34.99, model 1933233).

   - Rees

Posted by Bob (rweeks6508@…>)
This man’s brain should be tied directly into Wikipedia…what a wealth of information! Thanks! I may have misstated my intention my asking if it had the same threads as the T-Handle. I dont plan to put the gauge in the T-handle position but off to the outlet side (I think that is right) so it does not interfere with a quick change of the filter if required. My understanding they all have the same threads mearsurements.BobOn Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:31 PM, katorpus wrote:George & Bob A thought or two on your “cheapie” vacuum gauges. Make sure you keep the right size wrench “handy” (tethered to the bulkhead beside the filter, for instance). You will otherwise be unable to adequately tighten (or remove) the filter top without torquing the gauge off of the fitting. Vacuum gauges are designed for vacuum, although some (likely not the cheapies) are also able to withstand pressure. If you have installed an electric fuel pump upstream of the filter (for the purpose of “loading the filter” and bleeding the injectors without tickling the manual fuel pump, for instance), then you will be putting pressure into the bourdon tube of the vacuum gauge and will likely rupture it (on the cheapies, anyway). The Racor gauges are fluid damped (silicone, I believe). You can obtain other gauges that are damped, but not at this price. The damping does a couple of things…It keeps the needle of the gauge from vibrating over a range due to the vibrations transmitted to the gauge via the bulkhead/fuel lines/whatever. It also damps the resonance of the bourdon tube (which is hanging in air in your cheapie gauge). This vibration of the tube, over time, will lead to the failure of the very thin brass in the tube, at which point you will be sucking air into the engine through the resulting crack. Since you’ve already ordered these, I suggest that you (non- destructively) open one of them up before you install it and ask yourself if you really want the continued operation of your engine (at a potentially critical time) to hinge on the construction of this flimsy piece of equipment. If the answer is “yes”, make sure that you hang on to your T-Handle so that you can locate it and re-install it when failure does occur (hopefully not too close to rocks or jetties, since you’ll still have to bleed the system afterward in order to restart your engine). Apropos of another ongoing discussion, this would also clearly be the weak point in the fuel system in the event of any type of engine compartment fire as well. Some things are WORTH the cost. — In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Bob <rweeks6508@ …> wrote: > > > These have the right screw threads as the RACOR T-Handle?? Save a lot > of money I like it! > > Bob > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 AM, george huffman wrote: > > Vacuum Gauge > < http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge> > > The above link to an affordable vacuum gauge. I just ordered 4 of them. > It doesn’t have the fancy little dial index like the Racor but I can buy > a lot of grease pencils for a hundred dollars! > > George > > — On Sun, 11/30/08, Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> wrote: > From: Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> > Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:08 PM > > < http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge> > < http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge> > I’ve always filtered my fuel when it goes into the tank; I thought that > everyone did. Mine are homemade, but the West product looks better. > Roger > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rees Midgley <mailto:rmidgley@ …> > <mailto:rmidgley@ …> > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com > <mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> > <mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:38 PM > <mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> > Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning > <mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> > > <mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com> > Has anyone used a fuel filter funnel between the fuel hose and the > fuel port on the deck? West Marine sells one that will separate > water from fuel and pass 5 gal per minute of fuel through a 100 > micron filter. I just bought one and will try it this winter in the BVI > (10" H x 8-1/2" diam, $34.99, model 1933233). > > - Rees >

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Probably not Bob, I plan on plumbing them in hard. I ordered four of them today. One for main engine, one for Frankenmaker (and shared with diesel heater) and one for my fuel polishing rig. Number 4 goes in the spares bin. George— On Mon, 12/1/08, Bob <rweeks6508@…> wrote:From: Bob <rweeks6508@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Fuel cleaningTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comCc: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:36 AM

These have the right screw threads as the RACOR T-Handle?? Save a lot of money I like it!BobOn Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 AM, george huffman wrote:Vacuum GaugeThe above link to an affordable vacuum gauge. I just ordered 4 of them. It doesn’t have the fancy little dial index like the Racor but I can buy a lot of grease pencils for a hundred dollars! George — On Sun, 11/30/08, Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> wrote: From: Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:08 PM I’ve always filtered my fuel when it goes into the tank; I thought that everyone did. Mine are homemade, but the West product looks better. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Rees MidgleyTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. comSent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning Has anyone used a fuel filter funnel between the fuel hose and the fuel port on the deck? West Marine sells one that
will separate water from fuel and pass 5 gal per minute of fuel through a 100 micron filter. I just bought one and will try it this winter in the BVI (10" H x 8-1/2" diam, $34.99, model 1933233). - Rees

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Some good points. I never liked the idea of putting the gauge on top of the filter in any case. Now that you make these points regarding the gauge I’ll probably put a ball valve between the “T” and gauge. You learn something new every day.About flash point of diesel in another thread. Flash point is not the same as spontaneous ignition. The flash point of gasoline by comparison is something like 75F below zero! Woof! On a warm summer day you can sit and throw lit matches into a bucket of diesel and watch them snuff out one by one. Also also… there is a metal “flame guard” thingy available from Racor (not cheap) that has always satisfied the insurance companies (driven by crafty ABYC standard leaches and surveyor’s guilds) in the past but I can’t vouch for
what they might be doing today or tomorrow. I found some aluminum bowels once in the camping section of a department store that had the same look and size to them… good enough to fool the surveyors… heh heh George— On Mon, 12/1/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:From: katorpus <jrb@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel cleaningTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Monday, December 1, 2008, 12:31 PM

George & Bob

A thought or two on your “cheapie” vacuum gauges.

Make sure you keep the right size wrench “handy” (tethered to the
bulkhead beside the filter, for instance). You will otherwise be
unable to adequately tighten (or remove) the filter top without
torquing the gauge off of the fitting.

Vacuum gauges are designed for vacuum, although some (likely not the
cheapies) are also able to withstand pressure. If you have installed
an electric fuel pump upstream of the filter (for the purpose
of “loading the filter” and bleeding the injectors without tickling
the manual fuel pump, for instance), then you will be putting
pressure into the bourdon tube of the vacuum gauge and will likely
rupture it (on the cheapies, anyway).

The Racor gauges are fluid damped (silicone, I believe). You can
obtain other gauges that are damped, but not at this price. The
damping does a couple of things…It keeps the needle of the gauge
from vibrating over a range due to the vibrations transmitted to the
gauge via the bulkhead/fuel lines/whatever. It also damps the
resonance of the bourdon tube (which is hanging in air in your
cheapie gauge). This vibration of the tube, over time, will lead to
the failure of the very thin brass in the tube, at which point you
will be sucking air into the engine through the resulting crack.

Since you’ve already ordered these, I suggest that you (non-
destructively) open one of them up before you install it and ask
yourself if you really want the continued operation of your engine
(at a potentially critical time) to hinge on the construction of this
flimsy piece of equipment. If the answer is “yes”, make sure that you
hang on to your T-Handle so that you can locate it and re-install it
when failure does occur (hopefully not too close to rocks or jetties,
since you’ll still have to bleed the system afterward in order to
restart your engine).

Apropos of another ongoing discussion, this would also clearly be the
weak point in the fuel system in the event of any type of engine
compartment fire as well.

Some things are WORTH the cost.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, Bob <rweeks6508@ …> wrote:

These have the right screw threads as the RACOR T-Handle?? Save a
lot
of money I like it!

Bob

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 8:38 AM, george huffman wrote:

Vacuum Gauge
<http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge>

The above link to an affordable vacuum gauge. I just ordered 4 of
them.
It doesn’t have the fancy little dial index like the Racor but I
can buy
a lot of grease pencils for a hundred dollars!

George

— On Sun, 11/30/08, Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com> wrote:
From: Roger L. <rogerlov@ix. netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:08 PM

<http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge>

<http://www.drillspo t.com/products/ 67238/Generic_ 5WZ18_Vacuum_ Gauge>

I’ve always filtered my fuel when it goes into the tank; I thought
that
everyone did. Mine are homemade, but the West product looks better.
Roger

----- Original Message -----
From: Rees Midgley <mailto:rmidgley@ …>
<mailto:rmidgley@ …>
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:38 PM
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Fuel cleaning
<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>

<mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com>
Has anyone used a fuel filter funnel between the fuel hose and
the
fuel port on the deck? West Marine sells one that will separate
water from fuel and pass 5 gal per minute of fuel through a 100
micron filter. I just bought one and will try it this winter in
the BVI
(10" H x 8-1/2" diam, $34.99, model 1933233).

  • Rees



\

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

George…you’re right…I mis-spoke regarding flashpoint

Flashpoint is the LOWEST temp at which it can form an ignitable
mixture with air, which varies between 100-125 degrees Fahrenheit
depending on formulation and who tested it.

Autoignition temp is the temp at which something will ignite without
the application of an external flame or spark. For #2 diesel, that is
somewhere between 210-285 degrees Celsius and is actually LOWER than
the autoignition temp of gasoline.

The reason you can flip lit matches into a bucket of diesel is that
it is producing fewer volatile fumes in the layer of air/fuel above
the bucket. If you try this on a warm summer day with a bucket of
gasoline, you’re gonna get hurt, but if the day and and the gasoline
are cold enough, you can do the same thing…maybe. Don’t ask me to
try it…like you said, it would take a lot of cold to be below the
flashpoint of gasoline…but closer to -40 than -70.

My point in the other discussion was that, by the time the hose
burned through, the diesel in that immediate portion of the hose
would already have autoignited or would have vaporized to the point
of moving elsewhere in the hose (back into feed line from the tank or
through the injectors toward the return line. The not-as-hot diesel
with which it was in constant contact would serve as a heat sink,
drawing off the heat required for autoignition (for some period of
time, anyway)…again, this is all theoretical.

If the fuel in the hose were “trapped” between two closed valves, it
could be heated to the point of autoignition by the application of
flame to the hose, and this would likely occur prior to the hose
failure (depending on the quantity that was “trapped” and the
intensity/duration of flame applied to the hose). Explosion would
result (as opposed to “fuel feeding the fire”)

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

About flash point of diesel in another thread. Flash point is not
the same as spontaneous ignition. The flash point of gasoline by
comparison is something like 75F below zero! Woof! On a warm summer
day you can sit and throw lit matches into a bucket of diesel and
watch them snuff out one by one.

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
On board fire is bad. How’s that for a summing up. heh heh BTW my first firefighting training resulted in a huge (un-planned) fireball that would be the envy of the wizard of OZ. The trainers had set up a little “test fire” in a half of a 55 gallon drum split top to bottom then filled with a few gallons of water and some gasoline on the surface. The first guy to try and put it out with a co2 extinguisher came in low with a sweaping motion (as taught) and of course rolled the thing upsided down where the drum now trapped the ignited fuel and promptly created a low order explosion that sent the can going one way and that huge ball of fire that singed hair (and I got to tell you, the only time in my life I had less hair to begin with was as a baby) and scared the crap out of us. We were pinned to a firetruck behind us. The old
geezer teaching the class is the only one who kept his cool. He jumped through the fire, picked up the discarded extinguiser and put the whole thing out. “Well that’s enough for today guys”. George— On Mon, 12/1/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:From: katorpus <jrb@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel cleaningTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:52 PM

George…you’ re right…I mis-spoke regarding flashpoint

Flashpoint is the LOWEST temp at which it can form an ignitable
mixture with air, which varies between 100-125 degrees Fahrenheit
depending on formulation and who tested it.

Autoignition temp is the temp at which something will ignite without
the application of an external flame or spark. For #2 diesel, that is
somewhere between 210-285 degrees Celsius and is actually LOWER than
the autoignition temp of gasoline.

The reason you can flip lit matches into a bucket of diesel is that
it is producing fewer volatile fumes in the layer of air/fuel above
the bucket. If you try this on a warm summer day with a bucket of
gasoline, you’re gonna get hurt, but if the day and and the gasoline
are cold enough, you can do the same thing…maybe. Don’t ask me to
try it…like you said, it would take a lot of cold to be below the
flashpoint of gasoline…but closer to -40 than -70.

My point in the other discussion was that, by the time the hose
burned through, the diesel in that immediate portion of the hose
would already have autoignited or would have vaporized to the point
of moving elsewhere in the hose (back into feed line from the tank or
through the injectors toward the return line. The not-as-hot diesel
with which it was in constant contact would serve as a heat sink,
drawing off the heat required for autoignition (for some period of
time, anyway)…again, this is all theoretical.

If the fuel in the hose were “trapped” between two closed valves, it
could be heated to the point of autoignition by the application of
flame to the hose, and this would likely occur prior to the hose
failure (depending on the quantity that was “trapped” and the
intensity/duration of flame applied to the hose). Explosion would
result (as opposed to “fuel feeding the fire”)

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

About flash point of diesel in another thread. Flash point is not
the same as spontaneous ignition. The flash point of gasoline by
comparison is something like 75F below zero! Woof! On a warm summer
day you can sit and throw lit matches into a bucket of diesel and
watch them snuff out one by one.


\

Posted by Bob Weeks (rweeks6508@…>)


Ok firefighting stories! I have one for
you…I was in the submarine service and our training in firefight
consisted of this:

In a life like control room compartment of
a sub they set it on fire and we had to put it out wearing EBAs and that was
not enough so the started flooding the compartment half way through the firefighting
drill. Boy getting a crispy sunburn and drowning at the same time …. what
a life!! I almost quit but hung in there for the best eight years of my life.

Bob





From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008
4:49 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: Fuel cleaning







On board fire is bad. How’s that for a summing
up. heh heh BTW my first firefighting training resulted in a huge
(un-planned) fireball that would be the envy of the wizard of OZ. The
trainers had set up a little “test fire” in a half of a 55 gallon
drum split top to bottom then filled with a few gallons of water and some
gasoline on the surface. The first guy to try and put it out with a co2
extinguisher came in low with a sweaping motion (as taught) and of course
rolled the thing upsided down where the drum now trapped the ignited fuel and
promptly created a low order explosion that sent the can going one way and
that huge ball of fire that singed hair (and I got to tell you, the only time
in my life I had less hair to begin with was as a baby) and scared the crap
out of us. We were pinned to a firetruck behind us. The old
geezer teaching the class is the only one who kept his cool. He jumped
through the fire, picked up the discarded extinguiser and put the whole thing
out. “Well that’s enough for today guys”.

George

— On Mon, 12/1/08, katorpus <jrb@…> wrote:
From: katorpus
<jrb@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel cleaning
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:52 PM


George…you’ re right…I mis-spoke regarding
flashpoint

Flashpoint is the LOWEST temp at which it can form an ignitable
mixture with air, which varies between 100-125 degrees Fahrenheit
depending on formulation and who tested it.

Autoignition temp is the temp at which something will ignite without
the application of an external flame or spark. For #2 diesel, that is
somewhere between 210-285 degrees Celsius and is actually LOWER than
the autoignition temp of gasoline.

The reason you can flip lit matches into a bucket of diesel is that
it is producing fewer volatile fumes in the layer of air/fuel above
the bucket. If you try this on a warm summer day with a bucket of
gasoline, you’re gonna get hurt, but if the day and and the gasoline
are cold enough, you can do the same thing…maybe. Don’t ask me to
try it…like you said, it would take a lot of cold to be below the
flashpoint of gasoline…but closer to -40 than -70.

My point in the other discussion was that, by the time the hose
burned through, the diesel in that immediate portion of the hose
would already have autoignited or would have vaporized to the point
of moving elsewhere in the hose (back into feed line from the tank or
through the injectors toward the return line. The not-as-hot diesel
with which it was in constant contact would serve as a heat sink,
drawing off the heat required for autoignition (for some period of
time, anyway)…again, this is all theoretical.

If the fuel in the hose were “trapped” between two closed valves,
it
could be heated to the point of autoignition by the application of
flame to the hose, and this would likely occur prior to the hose
failure (depending on the quantity that was “trapped” and the
intensity/duration of flame applied to the hose). Explosion would
result (as opposed to “fuel feeding the fire”)

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

About flash point of diesel in another thread. Flash point is not
the same as spontaneous ignition. The flash point of gasoline by
comparison is something like 75F below zero! Woof! On a warm
summer
day you can sit and throw lit matches into a bucket of diesel and
watch them snuff out one by one.




\




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