Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

[Jay_Glen]

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks for your suggestions Fargo. But for any epoxy to stick to the aluminum you need to thoroughly clean out the diesel residue, then acid wash the tank before applying the epoxy. There is no way to accomplish the necessary cleaning due to extremely poor access. I’m not sure I would want to store water in an old diesel tank, due to the obvious contamination of the water with diesel residue. A flexible tank would be the obvious choice but because of the baffles it is not an option. I do think your “crazy idea” is not so crazy if I could access the tank to clean and etch the aluminum.
Thanks again to all of you for your concern and great ideas.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@…> wrote:






All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our wallets) as we
read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see a “been there,
done this” solution. None has popped up…but you are giving yourself
time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan out. Maybe someone
will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one that has proven
itself through years of sea work. One of the beautiful thing
about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they have great hull
construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting big holes
through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem. Secondary
bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if it can
be made to look smooth and fair.Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.Proven idea, first: Conversion: My
first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which in the old days came with
soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the mid/late sixties a big fire
swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of winter and the
whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was incinerated. The
fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original fire…but many
of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added much fuel to
the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had them. Rather than
pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted them to water
tanks. You might be able to get access over or under the one proven
pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or outside of this
part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth. Alternative
fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the area…or a
drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin hole areas
of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the right
alloy). New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water
settles. Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the
baffles if there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water
there in the past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all
develop in the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean
the inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash,
etc, etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface. Here
comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less, of
the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks
like hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas
that have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them
over. Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water
tank??? FargoEx F30 #12— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further. The tank
measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then, replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.
It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.
Thanks for your suggestions Michel.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

[Fargo_Rousseau]

Posted by Fargo Rousseau (fargo_r@…>)
Jay:Re: Oil contamination of water… we faced the same issue when we converted our Hinckley fuel tank to water. So, we only used the water for washing, etc…and never for drinking or cooking. But, after a year of cruising and some sea sailing to thoroughly slosh the water around inside the tank…it tasted fine. Re: Cleaning and etching for a good epoxy bond. We have a little luck there…because you are only trying to “perfect” the bottom surface of the tank…and not every square inch. And you are in no rush to do the job… So, maybe getting started with patching the one leak as best you can to hold a water/detergent solution…you could just put some in and sail around… and let the sloshing do some work in there. Then repeat and repeat. Most of the oil film should disappear
in time. Then, using the most aggressive cleaners, just go after the area covered by the first gallons going into the tank…the bottom, damaged area. Drain and repeat. The last cleaner should be volatile enough so that you can be sure to get a good dry surface. You’ll need to find a way to cross flow some ventilation. A small fan, a hose the you can direct down into one end, etc.Will keep thinking…and look for good ideas to come your way. Solutions are out there. Others will face the same issue… We should have lots of ways to deal with tank corrosion at our disposal.Best to you. Fargo— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank
leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:02 PM

Thanks for your suggestions Fargo. But for any epoxy to stick to the aluminum you need to thoroughly clean out the diesel residue, then acid wash the tank before applying the epoxy. There is no way to accomplish the necessary cleaning due to extremely poor access. I’m not sure I would want to store water in an old diesel tank, due to the obvious contamination of the water with diesel residue. A flexible tank would be the obvious choice but because of the baffles it is not an option. I do think your “crazy idea” is not so crazy if I could access the tank to clean and etch the aluminum.
Thanks again to all of you for your concern and great ideas.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@yahoo. com> wrote:






All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our wallets) as we
read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see a “been there,
done this” solution. None has popped up…but you are giving yourself
time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan out. Maybe someone
will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one that has proven
itself through years of sea work. One of the beautiful thing
about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they have great hull
construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting big holes
through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem. Secondary
bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if it can
be made to look smooth and fair.Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.Proven idea, first: Conversion: My
first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which in the old days came with
soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the mid/late sixties a big fire
swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of winter and the
whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was incinerated. The
fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original fire…but many
of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added much fuel to
the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had them. Rather than
pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted them to water
tanks. You might be able to get access over or under the one proven
pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or outside of this
part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth. Alternative
fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the area…or a
drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin hole areas
of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the right
alloy). New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water
settles. Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the
baffles if there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water
there in the past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all
develop in the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean
the inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash,
etc, etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface. Here
comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less, of
the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks
like hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas
that have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them
over. Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water
tank??? FargoEx F30 #12— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further. The tank
measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then, replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.
It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.
Thanks for your suggestions Michel.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

[Jay_Glen]

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks Fargo for all you wonderful suggestions. I’m leaning more and more to trying to salvage the tank by patching it. I will go ahead with installation of a day tank so I can continue to use Fantasy. Thanks so much!
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@…> wrote:





Jay:Re: Oil contamination of water… we faced the same issue when we converted our Hinckley fuel tank to water. So, we only used the water for washing, etc…and never for drinking or cooking. But, after a year of cruising and some sea sailing to thoroughly slosh the water around inside the tank…it tasted fine.
Re: Cleaning and etching for a good epoxy bond. We have a little luck there…because you are only trying to “perfect” the bottom surface of the tank…and not every square inch. And you are in no rush to do the job… So, maybe getting started with patching the one leak as best you can to hold a water/detergent solution…you could just put some in and sail around… and let the sloshing do some work in there. Then repeat and repeat. Most of the oil film should disappear
in time. Then, using the most aggressive cleaners, just go after the area covered by the first gallons going into the tank…the bottom, damaged area. Drain and repeat. The last cleaner should be volatile enough so that you can be sure to get a good dry surface. You’ll need to find a way to cross flow some ventilation. A small fan, a hose the you can direct down into one end, etc.
Will keep thinking…and look for good ideas to come your way. Solutions are out there. Others will face the same issue… We should have lots of ways to deal with tank corrosion at our disposal.Best to you.
Fargo— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank
leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:02 PM


Thanks for your suggestions Fargo. But for any epoxy to stick to the aluminum you need to thoroughly clean out the diesel residue, then acid wash the tank before applying the epoxy. There is no way to accomplish the necessary cleaning due to extremely poor access. I’m not sure I would want to store water in an old diesel tank, due to the obvious contamination of the water with diesel residue. A flexible tank would be the obvious choice but because of the baffles it is not an option. I do think your “crazy idea” is not so crazy if I could access the tank to clean and etch the aluminum.
Thanks again to all of you for your concern and great ideas.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@yahoo. com> wrote:






All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our wallets) as we
read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see a “been there,
done this” solution. None has popped up…but you are giving yourself
time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan out. Maybe someone
will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one that has proven
itself through years of sea work. One of the beautiful thing
about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they have great hull
construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting big holes
through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem. Secondary
bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if it can
be made to look smooth and fair.Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.Proven idea, first: Conversion: My
first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which in the old days came with
soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the mid/late sixties a big fire
swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of winter and the
whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was incinerated. The
fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original fire…but many
of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added much fuel to
the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had them. Rather than
pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted them to water
tanks. You might be able to get access over or under the one proven
pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or outside of this
part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth. Alternative
fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the area…or a
drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin hole areas
of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the right
alloy). New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water
settles. Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the
baffles if there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water
there in the past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all
develop in the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean
the inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash,
etc, etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface. Here
comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less, of
the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks
like hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas
that have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them
over. Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water
tank??? FargoEx F30 #12— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further. The tank
measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then, replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.
It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.
Thanks for your suggestions Michel.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

[Herman_and_Gail_Schi]

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

How about the urethane rubbery coatings used for pickup truck
bedliners? Herm

At 06:06 PM 8/1/2008, you wrote:

All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our wallets) as we
read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see a “been
there, done this” solution. None has popped up…but you are
giving yourself time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan
out. Maybe someone will come back eventually with the $250
fix…one that has proven itself through years of sea work.

One of the beautiful thing about a Freedom, older or newer, is that
they have great hull construction. So I am doubly upset to see you
cutting big holes through this great hull on your F40 to solve your
problem. Secondary bonds on glass work are never the same as the
original…even if it can be made to look smooth and fair.

Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.

Proven idea, first: Conversion:

My first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which in the old days came
with soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the mid/late sixties a big
fire swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of winter
and the whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was
incinerated. The fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the
original fire…but many of the soldered tanks broke open from the
heat and added much fuel to the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and
my boat had them. Rather than pull the whole boat apart to get them
out, I converted them to water tanks. You might be able to get
access over or under the one proven pin hole area and epoxy the hell
out of the inside or outside of this part of the tank…and call it
a water tank henceforth.

Alternative fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under
the area…or a drill into the tank from above, you could drill
out the pin hole areas of the tank, then tap and glue in some
aluminum screws (of the right alloy).

New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.

Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in
the bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water
settles. Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around
the baffles if there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped
water there in the past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes
will all develop in the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you
could clean the inside of the tank very very well…steam clean,
then solvent wash, etc, etc…these areas…creating a good solid
bonding surface.

Here comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or
less, of the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant
and sticks like hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the
same areas that have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and
seal them over. Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a
water tank???

Fargo
Ex F30 #12

— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is
below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and
through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink
where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is
small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink
counter is no access without cutting through the molded in
fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is
no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under
this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about
cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to
the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I
don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I
might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the
sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further.
The tank measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from
centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire
molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft
portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and
add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull
(below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m
going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in

the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
http://40yahoogroups.com40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

[Payne_Doug]

Posted by Payne, Doug (doug.payne@…>)


I am a little late in commenting on this
thread and am now a former Freedom owner. However, one of the boats I looked at
as I contemplated a new boat on the Gulf
Coast had Twainese built
stainless fuel tanks and the yard was notorious for poor quality stainless. It
had developed some leaks. My surveyor told me he knew a company in the Houston area that
injected a liquid some kind of plastic tank liner. It was sprayed in I believe.
This technique he said was certified for aircraft tanks as well that develop
the same problem. That seemed good news as aircraft repairs have to meet very
high standards of safety and reliability. He said the tank leaks were therefore
not a big concern, but would be a few thousand dollar deduction from the
purchase price as this is what it costs to have the procedure performed. If you
want more information, you can contact the surveyor, Roy Newberry, in Kemah Texas.

Doug
Former owner F-28, Free at Sea, hull
#2

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••


Douglas M. Payne
mobile ••• 972.953.8065


From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Glen
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008
11:46 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

Thanks Fargo for all you wonderful suggestions. I’m
leaning more and more to trying to salvage the tank by patching it. I will go
ahead with installation of a day tank so I can continue to use Fantasy. Thanks
so much!

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@yahoo.com> wrote:







Jay:

Re: Oil contamination of water… we faced the same issue when we
converted our Hinckley fuel tank to water.
So, we only used the water for washing, etc…and never for drinking or
cooking. But, after a year of cruising and some sea sailing to thoroughly
slosh the water around inside the tank…it tasted fine.

Re: Cleaning and etching for a good epoxy bond.

We have a little luck there…because you are only trying to
“perfect” the bottom surface of the tank…and not every square
inch. And you are in no rush to do the job… So, maybe getting started
with patching the one leak as best you can to hold a water/detergent
solution…you could just put some in and sail around… and let the
sloshing do some work in there. Then repeat and repeat. Most of the
oil film should disappear in time. Then, using the most aggressive cleaners,
just go after the area covered by the first gallons going into the
tank…the bottom, damaged area. Drain and repeat. The last
cleaner should be volatile enough so that you can be sure to get a good dry
surface. You’ll need to find a way to cross flow some
ventilation. A small fan, a hose the you can direct down into one end,
etc.

Will keep thinking…and look for good ideas to come your way.
Solutions are out there. Others will face the same issue… We should have
lots of ways to deal with tank corrosion at our disposal.

Best to you.

Fargo



— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com> wrote:



From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com

Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:02 PM

\

Thanks for your suggestions Fargo. But for any
epoxy to stick to the aluminum you need to thoroughly clean out the diesel
residue, then acid wash the tank before applying the epoxy. There is no way
to accomplish the necessary cleaning due to extremely poor access. I’m not
sure I would want to store water in an old diesel tank, due to the obvious
contamination of the water with diesel residue. A flexible tank would be the
obvious choice but because of the baffles it is not an option. I do think
your “crazy idea” is not so crazy if I could access the tank to
clean and etch the aluminum.

Thanks again to all of you for your concern and great ideas.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@yahoo. com>
wrote:







All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our
wallets) as we read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see
a “been there, done this” solution. None has popped up…but
you are giving yourself time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan
out. Maybe someone will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one
that has proven itself through years of sea work.

One of the beautiful thing about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they
have great hull construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting
big holes through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem.
Secondary bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if
it can be made to look smooth and fair.

Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.

Proven idea, first: Conversion:

My first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which
in the old days came with soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the
mid/late sixties a big fire swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of
winter and the whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was
incinerated. The fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original
fire…but many of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added
much fuel to the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had
them. Rather than pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted
them to water tanks. You might be able to get access over or under
the one proven pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or
outside of this part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth.

Alternative fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the
area…or a drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin
hole areas of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the
right alloy).

New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.

Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water settles.
Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the baffles if
there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water there in the
past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all develop in
the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean the
inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash, etc,
etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface.

Here comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less,
of the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks like
hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas that
have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them over.
Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water tank???

Fargo
Ex F30 #12

— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM



On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit
the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an
opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin
starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the
tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the
galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in
fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no
removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat
and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out
piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with
fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further
tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small
portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond
that area to cut further. The tank measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft
by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut
away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and
aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add
trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below
the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go
with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@
yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve

been thinking about your
horrorstory about having to cut a hole in


the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think

the current tank can be sawn
to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.




Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@
…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find

a

way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit,
and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom
of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw
tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin
hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I

cleaned

up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube

who

responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the
interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way
to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to

remove

the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels
with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at
least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar
leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original
tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m
thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank
somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a
way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco
Bay Area

\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area













\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area
















\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area


\

[Jay_Glen]

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks Doug, I may check that out.On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Payne, Doug <doug.payne@…> wrote:







I am a little late in commenting on this
thread and am now a former Freedom owner. However, one of the boats I looked at
as I contemplated a new boat on the Gulf
Coast had Twainese built
stainless fuel tanks and the yard was notorious for poor quality stainless. It
had developed some leaks. My surveyor told me he knew a company in the Houston area that
injected a liquid some kind of plastic tank liner. It was sprayed in I believe.
This technique he said was certified for aircraft tanks as well that develop
the same problem. That seemed good news as aircraft repairs have to meet very
high standards of safety and reliability. He said the tank leaks were therefore
not a big concern, but would be a few thousand dollar deduction from the
purchase price as this is what it costs to have the procedure performed. If you
want more information, you can contact the surveyor, Roy Newberry, in Kemah Texas.

Doug
Former owner F-28, Free at Sea, hull
#2

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••


Douglas M. Payne
mobile ••• 972.953.8065


From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Glen
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008
11:46 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

Thanks Fargo for all you wonderful suggestions. I’m
leaning more and more to trying to salvage the tank by patching it. I will go
ahead with installation of a day tank so I can continue to use Fantasy. Thanks
so much!

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@…> wrote:







Jay:

Re: Oil contamination of water… we faced the same issue when we
converted our Hinckley fuel tank to water.
So, we only used the water for washing, etc…and never for drinking or
cooking. But, after a year of cruising and some sea sailing to thoroughly
slosh the water around inside the tank…it tasted fine.

Re: Cleaning and etching for a good epoxy bond.

We have a little luck there…because you are only trying to
“perfect” the bottom surface of the tank…and not every square
inch. And you are in no rush to do the job… So, maybe getting started
with patching the one leak as best you can to hold a water/detergent
solution…you could just put some in and sail around… and let the
sloshing do some work in there. Then repeat and repeat. Most of the
oil film should disappear in time. Then, using the most aggressive cleaners,
just go after the area covered by the first gallons going into the
tank…the bottom, damaged area. Drain and repeat. The last
cleaner should be volatile enough so that you can be sure to get a good dry
surface. You’ll need to find a way to cross flow some
ventilation. A small fan, a hose the you can direct down into one end,
etc.

Will keep thinking…and look for good ideas to come your way.
Solutions are out there. Others will face the same issue… We should have
lots of ways to deal with tank corrosion at our disposal.

Best to you.

Fargo



— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:



From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com

Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:02 PM

\

Thanks for your suggestions Fargo. But for any
epoxy to stick to the aluminum you need to thoroughly clean out the diesel
residue, then acid wash the tank before applying the epoxy. There is no way
to accomplish the necessary cleaning due to extremely poor access. I’m not
sure I would want to store water in an old diesel tank, due to the obvious
contamination of the water with diesel residue. A flexible tank would be the
obvious choice but because of the baffles it is not an option. I do think
your “crazy idea” is not so crazy if I could access the tank to
clean and etch the aluminum.

Thanks again to all of you for your concern and great ideas.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Fargo Rousseau <fargo_r@yahoo. com>
wrote:







All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our
wallets) as we read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see
a “been there, done this” solution. None has popped up…but
you are giving yourself time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan
out. Maybe someone will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one
that has proven itself through years of sea work.

One of the beautiful thing about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they
have great hull construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting
big holes through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem.
Secondary bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if
it can be made to look smooth and fair.

Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.

Proven idea, first: Conversion:

My first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which
in the old days came with soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the
mid/late sixties a big fire swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of
winter and the whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was
incinerated. The fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original
fire…but many of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added
much fuel to the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had
them. Rather than pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted
them to water tanks. You might be able to get access over or under
the one proven pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or
outside of this part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth.

Alternative fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the
area…or a drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin
hole areas of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the
right alloy).

New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.

Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water settles.
Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the baffles if
there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water there in the
past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all develop in
the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean the
inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash, etc,
etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface.

Here comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less,
of the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks like
hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas that
have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them over.
Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water tank???

Fargo
Ex F30 #12

— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote:
From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM



On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit
the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an
opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin
starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the
tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the
galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in
fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no
removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat
and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out
piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with
fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further
tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small
portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond
that area to cut further. The tank measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft
by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut
away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and
aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add
trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below
the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go
with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@
yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve

been thinking about your
horrorstory about having to cut a hole in


the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think

the current tank can be sawn
to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.




Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@
yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@
…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find

a

way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit,
and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom
of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw
tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin
hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I

cleaned

up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube

who

responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the
interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way
to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to

remove

the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels
with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at
least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar
leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original
tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m
thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank
somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a
way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco
Bay Area

\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area













\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area
















\

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area






– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

[George_Huffman]

Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)

I wouldn’t risk using dissimilar metals. Get an aluminum pipe plug if
you take my solution. Questions regarding the integrity of the rest
of the tank can be answered by a bore-scope… maybe.

I’m wondering about this discussion of trim though. In our boat
(although I’m continuously finding oddities that others don’t seem to
have) we have lead pigs all in the bilge. I’m removing some as I ad
battery banks etc… to keep the trim of the boat. When I’m done
making changes I’m going to glass in the remaining pigs because
frankly they would be so many missiles in the event of a knock
down/roll and we are bound for the deep blue waters.

George

[George_Huffman]

Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)

Something else I thought of. I’m not sure what kind of access you
have to that sump or what shape it is. But if it’s a cylinder built
onto the bottom of the tank and you can get to it ok you could cut out
the bottom of it leaving a lip and build a cover plate for it. This
would also give you a little peak inside the tank.


George

[Jay_Glen]

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Hello George,Even with my fuel tank empty my boats trim is fine. Maybe it is listing about .5 degree to port at the most. I have no lead pigs anywhere in Fantasy. Never have seen a need for them.
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:16 PM, George Huffman <thatboatguy2@…> wrote:




Something else I thought of. I’m not sure what kind of access you
have to that sump or what shape it is. But if it’s a cylinder built
onto the bottom of the tank and you can get to it ok you could cut out
the bottom of it leaving a lip and build a cover plate for it. This
would also give you a little peak inside the tank.

George




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Hmmm…Jay… I see it’s not so easy as it would be in the F44 where
there are no internal fibreglass moldings, just woodwork.

Good luck with resolving this problem.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen”
<svfantasy@…> wrote:

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is
below the
galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through
the bottom
of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and
vent
hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the
dinette settee
just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without
cutting through
the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the
settee.
There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which
extends under
this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about
cutting the
tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the
starboard hull
with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if
there is
further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut
away a
small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to
move
beyond that area to cut further. The tank measures about 4.5 feet
fore & aft
by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option
is to cut
away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink
area and
aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc,
then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place
and add
trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future
access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the
hull (below
the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going
to go
with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
wrote:

Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks.
I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole
in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the
only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks
added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would
think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle
grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the
plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from
there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single
large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water
in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought
about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon
develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in
a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair
option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can
find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>
<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-
cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the
bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw
tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a
pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located.
I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called
Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the
interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only
way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull
to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels
with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at
least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar
leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original
tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m
thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else
in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a
way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

[Jay_Glen]

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks Michel! I’ve got several options that I am considering.On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 2:45 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:





Hmmm…Jay… I see it’s not so easy as it would be in the F44 where
there are no internal fibreglass moldings, just woodwork.

Good luck with resolving this problem.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen”
<svfantasy@…> wrote:

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is
below the
galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through
the bottom
of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and
vent
hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the
dinette settee
just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without
cutting through
the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the
settee.
There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which
extends under
this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about
cutting the
tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the
starboard hull
with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if
there is
further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut
away a
small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to
move
beyond that area to cut further. The tank measures about 4.5 feet
fore & aft
by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option
is to cut
away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink
area and
aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc,
then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place
and add
trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future
access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the
hull (below
the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going
to go
with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
wrote:

Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks.
I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole
in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the
only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks
added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would
think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle
grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the
plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from
there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single
large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water
in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought
about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon
develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in
a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair
option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can
find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>
<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-
cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the
bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw
tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a
pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located.
I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called
Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the
interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only
way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull
to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels
with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at
least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar
leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original
tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m
thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else
in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a
way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area