Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

Archives
1

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

2

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


I don’t have a 40 and can’t comment on location. However, on a
previous boat with a small fuel tank I added a flexible tank that I filled only
in preparation for a long passage where I wanted more fuel just in case. It
actually held up quite well and would be a good choice and easy to fit for a
temporary measure.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jay Glen
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:12 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [!! SPAM] [FreedomOwnersGroup] Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

\




Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?


\

3

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks Alan,I am considering that option, I just have to find an appropriate location to place it.On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Alan Kusinitz <akusinitz@…> wrote:







I don’t have a 40 and can’t comment on location. However, on a
previous boat with a small fuel tank I added a flexible tank that I filled only
in preparation for a long passage where I wanted more fuel just in case. It
actually held up quite well and would be a good choice and easy to fit for a
temporary measure.
Alan F-33 Hull #51 1982



From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jay Glen
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:12 PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [!! SPAM] [FreedomOwnersGroup] Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

\




Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?






– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

4

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

I’ve successfully patched an automobile fuel tank using a epoxy and
glass cloth patch. If the leaking spot is accessible for serious prep
(sanding and acid wash, etc,) I would give it a shot. WEST System has
an acid wash/etch kit available for aluminum alloy adhesion
enhancement. Herm

At 01:12 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

5

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

6

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for another day.
Thanks again everyone.On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:




Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?





– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

7

Posted by Capt. Herman (sailtampa@…>)

Hi Jay…
JB Weld makes a epoxy…2 parts…might work…
I’ ve used it on metal parts…and it’s incredible…
Make sure you use the one for aluminum…
I also live on my F40…cat/ketch…1979…so far,no leaks…
My tank is 80 gallons…I have access to it under the settee in front of the galley…
Goodluck and let me know how you get the tank out to replace/repair…
Capt.Herman Whitewing…Tampa

----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Glen
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit



Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for another day.Thanks again everyone.
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@yahoo.com> wrote:




Hello Jay,I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a way to get rid of the fire hazard.michel— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>


wrote:>> Hello everyone,> > I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke> up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the> inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and> return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole leak> dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned> up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who> responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.> > As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior> fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located> under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to remove> it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass counter/settee> base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove> the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the> same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the> patch job would not be visible.> > Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in this> fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now I> have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about> trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the boat.> This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to> replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.> > Any suggestions?>-- Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

8

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

Jay,
I would guess that the sump accumulated some water, and that is a
likely cause of the pinhole. If the problem is limited to that sump,
then a bigger patch, covering the entire sump (if that’s reachable)
might do the trick. I assume that the sump wasn’t regularly immersed
in salty bilge water, otherwise that may be the source of the problem
, and a lot more of the metal’s integrity would be questionable.
Lastly, is your fuel tank’s structure accessible from any direction?
If so, an opening could be cut in its side, a flexible tank inserted
into this hole and the remainder of the aluminum tank would support
the flexible tank within. If you could pull this off you wouldn’t
lose any interior space in your cabin
Herm

At 07:45 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very
nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole
leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and
destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the
tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll
save the replacement of the original tank for another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

9

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Capt Herman,I am thinking about a repair, however, I’m more than a little nervous due to the extreme possibility that more pin holes will eventually develop. But, yes, the sump is fairly accessible for a repair. Is your F-40 an aft-cockpit also? If so, you have the exact same lay-out and problem removing the tank. I hope yours last many more years.
Herm,I thought about placing a flexible bladder inside the tank, however, There is several baffles cris-crossing the tank. They would be almost impossible to remove. Then, you would have to somehow deal with the sharp edges left behind by their removal.
Thanks again,On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Herman and Gail Schiller <hschiller2@…> wrote:




Jay,
I would guess that the sump accumulated some water, and that is a
likely cause of the pinhole. If the problem is limited to that sump,
then a bigger patch, covering the entire sump (if that’s reachable)
might do the trick. I assume that the sump wasn’t regularly immersed
in salty bilge water, otherwise that may be the source of the problem
, and a lot more of the metal’s integrity would be questionable.
Lastly, is your fuel tank’s structure accessible from any direction?
If so, an opening could be cut in its side, a flexible tank inserted
into this hole and the remainder of the aluminum tank would support
the flexible tank within. If you could pull this off you wouldn’t
lose any interior space in your cabin
Herm

At 07:45 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very
nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole
leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and
destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the
tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll
save the replacement of the original tank for another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...michel.capel@…> wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,

“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area





– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

10

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

Jay,
Last shot at alternatives. If the tank is somewhat
accessible, taking it apart, piece by piece, using an electric sheet
metal nibbler seems possible. It may require you to be a three-armed,
multi-wrist monkey to get it all. After completion, the space will be
available for using a flexible rubber bladder as a fuel tank. This
method of removal is well-known by bathroom remodelers where they
don’t try to remove a cast-iron tub in one piece. Typically, they
bring in a sledge hammer, and break the cast iron tub into manageable
pieces that will fit through the door, and not provoke back strain to
carry it out. Best of luck in solving this dilemma.
Herm

After At 11:10 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Capt Herman,

I am thinking about a repair, however, I’m more than a little
nervous due to the extreme possibility that more pin holes will
eventually develop. But, yes, the sump is fairly accessible for a
repair. Is your F-40 an aft-cockpit also? If so, you have the exact
same lay-out and problem removing the tank. I hope yours last many more years.

Herm,

I thought about placing a flexible bladder inside the tank, however,
There is several baffles cris-crossing the tank. They would be
almost impossible to remove. Then, you would have to somehow deal
with the sharp edges left behind by their removal.
Thanks again,

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Herman and Gail Schiller
<mailto:hschiller2@...hschiller2@…> wrote:

Jay,
I would guess that the sump accumulated some water, and that is a
likely cause of the pinhole. If the problem is limited to that sump,
then a bigger patch, covering the entire sump (if that’s reachable)
might do the trick. I assume that the sump wasn’t regularly immersed
in salty bilge water, otherwise that may be the source of the problem
, and a lot more of the metal’s integrity would be questionable.
Lastly, is your fuel tank’s structure accessible from any direction?
If so, an opening could be cut in its side, a flexible tank inserted
into this hole and the remainder of the aluminum tank would support
the flexible tank within. If you could pull this off you wouldn’t
lose any interior space in your cabin
Herm

At 07:45 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very
nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole
leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and
destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the
tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll
save the replacement of the original tank for another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...mailto:michel.capel%40yahoo.commi
chel.capel@…> wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:FreedomOwnersG
roup%40yahoogroups.com>FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank. Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

11

Posted by Scott Forgey (jsforgey@…>)


I would suggest speaking with someone in the Aircraft industry
before you give up. This stuff happens all the time with planes and they
resolve it.

Most likely, they will have some suggestions and have dealt with
this in a way that gives certainty about performance.

Scott
Pilot and sailor
Girlfriend f-32

Scott Forgey
21362 Summertrace Circle
Boca Raton, FL 33428

561.445.5179
skype: sforgey1

“Nothing is ever wrong in the universe, there is only
what’s missing!”

W. Erhard



From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail
Schiller
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:40 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

\




Jay,
Last shot at alternatives. If the tank is somewhat
accessible, taking it apart, piece by piece, using an electric sheet
metal nibbler seems possible. It may require you to be a three-armed,
multi-wrist monkey to get it all. After completion, the space will be
available for using a flexible rubber bladder as a fuel tank. This
method of removal is well-known by bathroom remodelers where they
don’t try to remove a cast-iron tub in one piece. Typically, they
bring in a sledge hammer, and break the cast iron tub into manageable
pieces that will fit through the door, and not provoke back strain to
carry it out. Best of luck in solving this dilemma.
Herm

After At 11:10 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Capt Herman,

I am thinking about a repair, however, I’m more than a little
nervous due to the extreme possibility that more pin holes will
eventually develop. But, yes, the sump is fairly accessible for a
repair. Is your F-40 an aft-cockpit also? If so, you have the exact
same lay-out and problem removing the tank. I hope yours last many more
years.

Herm,

I thought about placing a flexible bladder inside the tank, however,
There is several baffles cris-crossing the tank. They would be
almost impossible to remove. Then, you would have to somehow deal
with the sharp edges left behind by their removal.
Thanks again,

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Herman and Gail Schiller
<mailto:hschiller2@...hschiller2@…>
wrote:

Jay,
I would guess that the sump accumulated some water, and that is a
likely cause of the pinhole. If the problem is limited to that sump,
then a bigger patch, covering the entire sump (if that’s reachable)
might do the trick. I assume that the sump wasn’t regularly immersed
in salty bilge water, otherwise that may be the source of the problem
, and a lot more of the metal’s integrity would be questionable.
Lastly, is your fuel tank’s structure accessible from any direction?
If so, an opening could be cut in its side, a flexible tank inserted
into this hole and the remainder of the aluminum tank would support
the flexible tank within. If you could pull this off you wouldn’t
lose any interior space in your cabin
Herm

At 07:45 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very
nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole
leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and
destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the
tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll
save the replacement of the original tank for another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...mailto:michel.capel%40yahoo.commi

chel.capel@…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:FreedomOwnersG

roup%40yahoogroups.com>FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,

“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere
else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area


\

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12

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Herm,I also thought of that as an option. It is possible as long as Freedom didn’t fiberglass tab the tank in place in areas I can’t reach. I know the tank is tab to the starboard hull where I can easily cut through, as I have good access there. If that is the only place the tank is tabbed in then I can cut away a chunk, move the tank closer to my access point, cut more, and so on.
Scott,Godd idea about contacting the aircraft industry for possible solutions.Thanks to both of you.2008/7/23 Scott Forgey <jsforgey@…>:







I would suggest speaking with someone in the Aircraft industry
before you give up. This stuff happens all the time with planes and they
resolve it.

Most likely, they will have some suggestions and have dealt with
this in a way that gives certainty about performance.

Scott
Pilot and sailor
Girlfriend f-32

Scott Forgey
21362 Summertrace Circle
Boca Raton, FL 33428

561.445.5179
skype: sforgey1

“Nothing is ever wrong in the universe, there is only
what’s missing!”

W. Erhard



From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman and Gail
Schiller
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:40 AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpit

\




Jay,
Last shot at alternatives. If the tank is somewhat
accessible, taking it apart, piece by piece, using an electric sheet
metal nibbler seems possible. It may require you to be a three-armed,
multi-wrist monkey to get it all. After completion, the space will be
available for using a flexible rubber bladder as a fuel tank. This
method of removal is well-known by bathroom remodelers where they
don’t try to remove a cast-iron tub in one piece. Typically, they
bring in a sledge hammer, and break the cast iron tub into manageable
pieces that will fit through the door, and not provoke back strain to
carry it out. Best of luck in solving this dilemma.
Herm

After At 11:10 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Capt Herman,

I am thinking about a repair, however, I’m more than a little
nervous due to the extreme possibility that more pin holes will
eventually develop. But, yes, the sump is fairly accessible for a
repair. Is your F-40 an aft-cockpit also? If so, you have the exact
same lay-out and problem removing the tank. I hope yours last many more
years.

Herm,

I thought about placing a flexible bladder inside the tank, however,
There is several baffles cris-crossing the tank. They would be
almost impossible to remove. Then, you would have to somehow deal
with the sharp edges left behind by their removal.
Thanks again,

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Herman and Gail Schiller
<mailto:hschiller2@...hschiller2@…>
wrote:

Jay,
I would guess that the sump accumulated some water, and that is a
likely cause of the pinhole. If the problem is limited to that sump,
then a bigger patch, covering the entire sump (if that’s reachable)
might do the trick. I assume that the sump wasn’t regularly immersed
in salty bilge water, otherwise that may be the source of the problem
, and a lot more of the metal’s integrity would be questionable.
Lastly, is your fuel tank’s structure accessible from any direction?
If so, an opening could be cut in its side, a flexible tank inserted
into this hole and the remainder of the aluminum tank would support
the flexible tank within. If you could pull this off you wouldn’t
lose any interior space in your cabin
Herm

At 07:45 PM 7/22/2008, you wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very
nervous doing so. When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole
leaks it is very likely more leaks (maybe a lot more serious and
destructive) will soon develop. So, I’ll probably just isolate the
tank and install a small Day Tank in a convenient location. I’ll
save the replacement of the original tank for another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...mailto:michel.capel%40yahoo.commi

chel.capel@…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:FreedomOwnersG

roup%40yahoogroups.com>FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com,

“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere
else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–

Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area


\

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PM


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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: 7/22/2008 4:05 PM




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

13

Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)

Hey Jay,

I know it does not speak to your fear of more pin holes developing but
if you have clearance under that sump you could drill the pin hole,
tap it for threads, and then plug it with a tapered thread pipe plug.
I’ve done this with success before. Chances are pretty good that
after all this time you not have problems other than right there in
the sump since that is the place where any water in the tank would
gather.

Our f-40 cc has a very different tank arrangement. One of the final
mysteries is a fuel tank that’s under the salon floor and has been
abandoned. There is another tank in the engine room and one under the
quarter berth that appears to be added. I have a 47 gallon bladder
tank that I’d like to install in that abandoned tank but I didn’t
really want to rip up the salon floor… sigh.


George

14

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
George,That is an excellent idea. If I only had faith the rest of the tank was ok. Since I have two large water tanks (85 gals under stbd quarter berth and 108 gals under the port quarter berth) I’m thinking of removing the 85 gal water tank and installing a new fuel tank in that location. Access is fairly easy and as far as the trim of the vessel is concerned the tank would be on the same side of centerline as the original fuel tank. My other option is to install a small “day tank” in the stbd lazarette, maybe 40 gals or less, as a temporary fix.
Thanks again for your excellent suggestions.On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:57 PM, George Huffman <thatboatguy2@…> wrote:





Hey Jay,

I know it does not speak to your fear of more pin holes developing but
if you have clearance under that sump you could drill the pin hole,
tap it for threads, and then plug it with a tapered thread pipe plug.
I’ve done this with success before. Chances are pretty good that
after all this time you not have problems other than right there in
the sump since that is the place where any water in the tank would
gather.

Our f-40 cc has a very different tank arrangement. One of the final
mysteries is a fuel tank that’s under the salon floor and has been
abandoned. There is another tank in the engine room and one under the
quarter berth that appears to be added. I have a 47 gallon bladder
tank that I’d like to install in that abandoned tank but I didn’t
really want to rip up the salon floor… sigh.

George




– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

15

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

George

Some things to consider…

My F40 Aft Cockpit had an active deck leak when I bought the boat
(poor glass in the port side scupper that drains the toerail
overboard) which caused some rot in the bulkhead separating the head
from the aft port bunk. After that was repaired, and the boat dried
out, I developed leaks in the port water tank (also alumninum) which
resulted from the water being held next to the tank (from the
outside) by the foam which used to bed the tank to the hullside.

I haven’t yet repaired that (don’t need all that water for the
sailing I do), but my thought is that I’ll clean the inside of the
tank really well and pour in a bunch of epoxy until the holes quit
leaking (they are right at the bottom of the tank, and adjacent to
the bulkhead separating the tank from the port lazarette (which also
rotted).

If the same type of external corrosion (as opposed to water in the
fuel) caused your fuel tank leak(s), then you’ll likely not be facing
a single repair job. I doubt if you could get the fuel tank clean
enough to do the “epoxy fix” and I’m not sure whether it would hold
up when immersed in diesel forever.

You can (with a little work and “McGuyvering”) rig a pressure test on
the tank after fixing the hole you’ve located. It won’t have to hold
a LOT of (a few pounds), but it should hold that pressure virtually
indefinitely. You’ll have to (temporarily) seal the fill line & the
vent and return line (from the engine) and install a (cheap) pressure
gauge and have a way to fill it (automotive tire valve maybe). This
could be done on the drain tube that extends into the bilge.

As far as a day tank is concerned, you could easily put in a 10 or 20
gallon tank within the engine compartment. Unless you’re cruising and
have need of a lot of fuel, this will take you “out and back” on a
lot of daysailing.

If you convert your starboard water tank to fuel, you’ll still be
affecting your trim, since you’ll be losing the weight of the fuel in
the original tank and the difference in the weight of the (lighter
than water) fuel and the weight of the water that you’re no longer
carrying in the aft tank.

The absence of 100+ gallons of water on my port side noticeably
affects the trim when sitting in a windless slip, and the absence of
that weight AFT causes it to sit “bow down” enough that those
irritating depressions (port and starboard) where the deck (inside
the breakwater)meets the aft bulkhead which SHOULD be draining down
the aft bulkhead and down the open channel to the channels on either
side of the cockpit deck now hold water (and mud)until it dries up.

Whoever decided to drain the starboard scupper directly down the
hullside above the portlight at the nav desk was REALLY not thinking
that day.

I use cutout pieces of bleach bottle curled to press fit and rounded
on the ends to get most of the deck runoff clear of the hullside. The
sun crisps them pretty soonly, but the price is right and (once you
have the template) it takes about 20 seconds to cut out a new one.



— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

George,

That is an excellent idea. If I only had faith the rest of the tank
was ok.
Since I have two large water tanks (85 gals under stbd quarter
berth and 108
gals under the port quarter berth) I’m thinking of removing the 85
gal water
tank and installing a new fuel tank in that location. Access is
fairly easy
and as far as the trim of the vessel is concerned the tank would be
on the
same side of centerline as the original fuel tank. My other option
is to
install a small “day tank” in the stbd lazarette, maybe 40 gals or
less, as
a temporary fix.

Thanks again for your excellent suggestions.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 1:57 PM, George Huffman
<thatboatguy2@…>wrote:

Hey Jay,

I know it does not speak to your fear of more pin holes
developing but
if you have clearance under that sump you could drill the pin
hole,
tap it for threads, and then plug it with a tapered thread pipe
plug.
I’ve done this with success before. Chances are pretty good that
after all this time you not have problems other than right there
in
the sump since that is the place where any water in the tank would
gather.

Our f-40 cc has a very different tank arrangement. One of the
final
mysteries is a fuel tank that’s under the salon floor and has been
abandoned. There is another tank in the engine room and one under
the
quarter berth that appears to be added. I have a 47 gallon bladder
tank that I’d like to install in that abandoned tank but I didn’t
really want to rip up the salon floor… sigh.

George

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

16

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

Jay,
If you go this route, don’t forget to use generous amount of
Loctite to isolate the metals involved from each other. Herm

At 04:57 PM 7/31/2008, you wrote:

Hey Jay,

I know it does not speak to your fear of more pin holes developing but
if you have clearance under that sump you could drill the pin hole,
tap it for threads, and then plug it with a tapered thread pipe plug.
I’ve done this with success before. Chances are pretty good that
after all this time you not have problems other than right there in
the sump since that is the place where any water in the tank would
gather.

Our f-40 cc has a very different tank arrangement. One of the final
mysteries is a fuel tank that’s under the salon floor and has been
abandoned. There is another tank in the engine room and one under the
quarter berth that appears to be added. I have a 47 gallon bladder
tank that I’d like to install in that abandoned tank but I didn’t
really want to rip up the salon floor… sigh.

George

17

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

18

Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further. The tank measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then, replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.
It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.
Thanks for your suggestions Michel.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups.com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area





– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area

19

Posted by Herman and Gail Schiller (hschiller2@…>)

Jay,
I guess I’m a sleezeball mechanic, but I would have found a #10 by
1/2" pan or truss head, type 316 stainless sheet metal screw, covered
the threads with 3M 5200, drove it into the hole, and waited a week
to cure the 3M 5200. By doing this, the pinhole would’ve been fixed
for some undetermined period (one day to 10 years). In any case, the
fix would not have compromised any future fixes/replacements. I think
the day tank is an excellent idea, simply because the large tank is
hard to keep condensation-free. I’d reserve the big tank for real
voyaging. Herm

At 11:44 AM 8/1/2008, you wrote:

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is
below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and
through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink
where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is
small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink
counter is no access without cutting through the molded in
fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is
no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under
this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about
cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to
the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I
don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I
might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the
sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further.
The tank measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from
centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire
molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft
portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then,
replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and
add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.

It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull
(below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m
going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.

Thanks for your suggestions Michel.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel
<mailto:michel.capel@...michel.capel@…> wrote:

Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in

the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In
mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In

mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup%40yahoogroups.comFreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com<
FreedomOwnersGroup%

http://40yahoogroups.com40yahoogroups.com>,

“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area

20

Posted by Fargo Rousseau (fargo_r@…>)
All of us are practically in tears (and grabbing our wallets) as we
read your fuel tank stories. I have been hoping to see a “been there,
done this” solution. None has popped up…but you are giving yourself
time (with your day-tank idea) to let the story fan out. Maybe someone
will come back eventually with the $250 fix…one that has proven
itself through years of sea work. One of the beautiful thing
about a Freedom, older or newer, is that they have great hull
construction. So I am doubly upset to see you cutting big holes
through this great hull on your F40 to solve your problem. Secondary
bonds on glass work are never the same as the original…even if it can
be made to look smooth and fair.Two thoughts come to mind…one crazy…one proven.Proven idea, first: Conversion: My
first bigger boat was a Hinckley…which in the old days came with
soldered monel tanks. Sometime in the mid/late sixties a big fire
swept through a Connecticut boat yard in the middle of winter and the
whole inventory of millions of dollars of boats was incinerated. The
fuel in the boat tanks was not blamed for the original fire…but many
of the soldered tanks broke open from the heat and added much fuel to
the fire. So, they were “outlawed” and my boat had them. Rather than
pull the whole boat apart to get them out, I converted them to water
tanks. You might be able to get access over or under the one proven
pin hole area and epoxy the hell out of the inside or outside of this
part of the tank…and call it a water tank henceforth. Alternative
fix, If you could get a small right angle drill under the area…or a
drill into the tank from above, you could drill out the pin hole areas
of the tank, then tap and glue in some aluminum screws (of the right
alloy). New fuel tank(s) would be installed elsewhere.Crazy thought second.

First, I presume that your hole (and future potential holes) are in the
bottom sump area of the tank…the area where separated water
settles. Corrosion spots might also be found in a few areas around the
baffles if there are some poorly drained areas that have trapped water
there in the past. In any event…I feel sure that the holes will all
develop in the lowest parts of the tank. So…what if you could clean
the inside of the tank very very well…steam clean, then solvent wash,
etc, etc…these areas…creating a good solid bonding surface. Here
comes the crazy part… you pour in a nice gallon, more or less, of
the right kind of epoxy (one that is both fuel resistant and sticks
like hell to aluminum). This stuff will settle into the same areas
that have been damaged in the past by electrolysis? and seal them
over. Maybe this makes reliable a fuel tank…or just a water
tank??? FargoEx F30 #12— On Fri, 8/1/08, Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:From: Jay Glen <svfantasy@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Fuel tank leak F-40 aft cockpitTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:44 AM

On my 1981 F-40 Aft-Cockpit the only access to the fuel tank is below the galley sink through an opening about 1 square foot, and through the bottom of the storage bin starboard of the galley sink where the fill and vent hoses connect to the tank. This area is small also. Under the dinette settee just forward of the galley sink counter is no access without cutting through the molded in fiberglass pan which comprises the seat around the settee. There is no removable plywood panel to get to the tank which extends under this seat and all the way to the starboard hull. I thought about cutting the tank out piece by piece, however, the tank is bonded to the starboard hull with fiberglass tabbing ( I can see that) and I don’t know if there is further tabbing in the places I cannot see. I might be able to cut away a small portion at the access under the sink, but there is no way to move beyond that area to cut further. The tank
measures about 4.5 feet fore & aft by about 5 .5 feet from centerline to stbd hull. The other option is to cut away the entire molded fiberglass galley countertop including sink area and aft portion of the dinette settee, remove the tank by cutting etc, then, replace the galley counter section and either re-bond into place and add trim to hide the cut, or, mechanically re-attach it for future access.
It is very common to remove large tanks through the side of the hull (below the waterline), but the yard bill is not cheap. For now, I’m going to go with a day tank in the lazarette until I decide on a permanent fix.
Thanks for your suggestions Michel.On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 AM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote:





Jay,

You’re probably right about one leak means more possible leaks. I’ve
been thinking about your horrorstory about having to cut a hole in
the hull to replace the tank. It can’t be true that this is the only
way to replace a tank! Many other boats will have to have tanks added
or replaced without cutting large holes in the side. I would think
the current tank can be sawn to pieces with a small angle grinder. On
my boat, part of the tank top can be accessed by removing the plywood
top sheet of the settee forward of the galley. Working from there,
the tank can be cut to pieces that fit the top of the settee. You
wouldn’t have to ruin any other joinery work.

Perhaps a new tank could be made in situ by welding PE sheets? Or
several smaller tanks could be installed in place of the single large
one?

Another question I have is: how do these pinholes develop? Water in
the diesel? Other additives in the diesel?

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@… .>
wrote:

Thanks, Alan, Michel and Herm for your suggestions. I thought about
using
some kind of patch over the pin hole, however, I’m very nervous
doing so.
When aluminum tanks start developing pin hole leaks it is very
likely more
leaks (maybe a lot more serious and destructive) will soon develop.
So, I’ll
probably just isolate the tank and install a small Day Tank in a
convenient
location. I’ll save the replacement of the original tank for
another day.

Thanks again everyone.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
wrote:

Hello Jay,

I have more or less the same setup in the F44, minus the grp-
liner. I
wondered where the pickup tube would be. Another repair option
might
be hard soldering, if you can get to the spot and if you can find
a
way to get rid of the fire hazard.

michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com<FreedomOwnersGroup%
40yahoogroups. com>,
“Jay Glen” <svfantasy@>
wrote:

Hello everyone,

I live aboard Fantasy, my 1981 F-40 Cat-Ketch, aft-cockpit, and
woke
up yesterday with fuel dripping into my bilge. At the bottom of
the
inboard end of the fuel tank is a sump into which the draw tube
and
return tubes extend. The bottom of this fuel sump has a pin hole
leak
dripping right into bilge where the bilge pump is located. I
cleaned
up the 3 or 4 cups that had accumulated and called Marinelube
who
responded and off-loaded my 95 gals of diesel fuel.

As other F-40 owners will know Freedom Yachts put the interior
fiberglass liner in the hull over the fuel tank (which is
located
under the Galley counter and starboard settee. The only way to
remove
it would be to destroy the fine joinery and fiberglass
counter/settee
base, or, haul-out and cut a hole in the side of the hull to
remove
the tank through. This is a common method on many vessels with
the
same problem. The tank does sit below the waterline so at least
the
patch job would not be visible.

Any other F-40 Aft cockpit owners gone through a similar leak in
this
fuel tank? It is an aluminum tank, and it is the original tank.
Now
I
have just cleaned all the remaining fuel out and I’m thinking
about
trying to locate a much smaller “Day” tank somewhere else in the
boat.
This will allow me to still use the boat until I figure a way to
replace the bad 106 gal leaking tank.

Any suggestions?

–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area





– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area