We’re currently under contract to buy a 1981 Freedom 33 with wishbone
booms and wraparound sails. Can anyone out there help with a few
questions before our survey on Monday?
Has anyone installed a manual windlass on their F33? Where did you put it?
Did TPI do a good job of bedding stanchion base bolts? The ones on
this boat are decidedly ugly, with cracking all around them and
evidence of leaking through the hardware. The deck also has lots of
gel coat crazing under the nonskid.
Why are there running backstays on the mainmast? (there’s no
mizzen staysail, but that would use the mizzen running backs anyway,
right?)
The commissioning guide says to only use the plastic wedges
provided for the masts, but this boat has Spar-Tite around the masts.
Is that OK? Has anyone used it?
Since both Freedom groups are getting lots of posts, we’ll send this
out to both…sorry for the duplication. We really appreciate
everyone’s help and experience, and we’re excited about joining the
group as owners instead of lurkers!
I have an F-33. The booms were converted
to straight booms with sail tracks added on the masts.
My comments:
Yes
I added a Simpson Lawrence (not Lewmar) horizon 900 windlass. It is
forward of the mainmast. The chain has plenty of room in the forepeak
forward of the mast.
Some
boats had aluminum toe rails others teak. Mine has teak so the stanchions
were a bit in board of this. The problem is that in some places the
inside bolts go through the balsa core. They were bedded pretty well but still
I had a couple that had leaked a little and the balsa was wet or rotten
around a few. On mine this was not extensive. I cut it out from below
(messy job) and repaired it so the bolts didn’t go through balsa
just epoxy and glass and added a large backing plate. However, if
yours have extensive cracking on near the stanchion bases and the deck in
general it could generate the balsa core of the deck is rotted in larger
areas. Have your surveyor check this carefully as it would be an extensive
and expensive thing to repair.
I’ve
never seen running backstays (just lazyjacks) on the main although I guess
if one wanted a main spinnaker.
The
spartite company claims their formula is good for freedom masts (although
some older formulas may have been a bit soft). I used it between the masts
and aluminum collars but still have the original rings beneath this. Those
rings are quite soft so I think the spartite is clearly hard enough. I’ve
had no problems with it and consider it a good improvement.
We’re
currently under contract to buy a 1981 Freedom 33 with wishbone
booms and wraparound sails. Can anyone out there help with a few
questions before our survey on Monday?
Has anyone installed a manual windlass on their F33? Where did you put it?
Did TPI do a good job of bedding stanchion base bolts? The ones on
this boat are decidedly ugly, with cracking all around them and
evidence of leaking through the hardware. The deck also has lots of
gel coat crazing under the nonskid.
Why are there running backstays on the mainmast? (there’s no
mizzen staysail, but that would use the mizzen running backs anyway,
right?)
The commissioning guide says to only use the plastic wedges
provided for the masts, but this boat has Spar-Tite around the masts.
Is that OK? Has anyone used it?
Since both Freedom groups are getting lots of posts, we’ll send this
out to both…sorry for the duplication. We really appreciate
everyone’s help and experience, and we’re excited about joining the
group as owners instead of lurkers!
On my F33, I put an electric windlass because I felt there was not
enough working space in front of the mast to work with a manual
windlass. But of course Alan is a bit smaller than me, so he doesn’t
get stuck between the mast and the pullpit.
My 1981 F44 also had bad crazing all over the deck, especially
under the non skid. It is said that this is due to a combination of a
gelcoat that is too brittle (to much hardener), put on too thick, on
a deck surface that is not stiff enough to prevent flexing under
foot. Result: cracks. I think that was the 1981 way to do the decks.
I had my decks sanded, ground out the baddest spots, filled and
faired and sprayed with two coats of Awlgrip primer and then two
coats of high gloss Awlgrip topcoat. On the non skid areas, the
topcoat was sanded and rolled with two coats of Awlgrip non-skid
paint with medium grit in it. I would use coarse grit next time.
As far as I know, the standard Spartite is not recommended for use
with freestanding masts. They supply a harder rubber for freestanding
masts on request. You can get the same stuff unbranded (and not blue
colored) for half the price (look for PMC-790, or the softer variety
PMC-780)
I have an F-33. The booms were converted to straight booms with
sail tracks
added on the masts.
My comments:
Yes I added a Simpson Lawrence (not Lewmar) horizon 900
windlass. It
is forward of the mainmast. The chain has plenty of room in the
forepeak
forward of the mast.
Some boats had aluminum toe rails others teak. Mine has teak
so the
stanchions were a bit in board of this. The problem is that in
some places
the inside bolts go through the balsa core. They were bedded pretty
well but
still I had a couple that had leaked a little and the balsa was wet
or
rotten around a few. On mine this was not extensive. I cut it out
from below
(messy job) and repaired it so the bolts didn’t go through balsa
just epoxy
and glass and added a large backing plate. However, if yours have
extensive
cracking on near the stanchion bases and the deck in general it
could
generate the balsa core of the deck is rotted in larger areas. Have
your
surveyor check this carefully as it would be an extensive and
expensive
thing to repair.
I’ve never seen running backstays (just lazyjacks) on the main
although I guess if one wanted a main spinnaker.
The spartite company claims their formula is good for freedom
masts
(although some older formulas may have been a bit soft). I used it
between
the masts and aluminum collars but still have the original rings
beneath
this. Those rings are quite soft so I think the spartite is clearly
hard
enough. I’ve had no problems with it and consider it a good
improvement.
We’re currently under contract to buy a 1981 Freedom 33 with
wishbone
booms and wraparound sails. Can anyone out there help with a few
questions before our survey on Monday?
Has anyone installed a manual windlass on their F33? Where did
you put
it?
Did TPI do a good job of bedding stanchion base bolts? The ones
on
this boat are decidedly ugly, with cracking all around them and
evidence of leaking through the hardware. The deck also has lots of
gel coat crazing under the nonskid.
Why are there running backstays on the mainmast? (there’s no
mizzen staysail, but that would use the mizzen running backs anyway,
right?)
The commissioning guide says to only use the plastic wedges
provided for the masts, but this boat has Spar-Tite around the
masts.
Is that OK? Has anyone used it?
Since both Freedom groups are getting lots of posts, we’ll send this
out to both…sorry for the duplication. We really appreciate
everyone’s help and experience, and we’re excited about joining the
group as owners instead of lurkers!
To person looking to buy the F33 with cracks on deck…I turned down a
F32 for that very reason.
An expert on fiberglass and repair at a boatyard, told me on a
Freedom, doesn’t matter if water is getting in from santions, or the
cracks, on Freedoms the water travels, in all durections through the
Balsa wood, and turns it to mush. He showed me the process, and how
large spoons had to be used to SCOOP the mush bulsa out…he was
doing another boat at the time…the whole prosess was in the
thousands…more $ than I was willing to put into a boat…I also
was looking to look at the boat you are talking about. Your comments,
are all I need…I do not have to go look at that boat.
I ordered a water moister meter, that I will now test on the decks of
boats I will be looking at. I figure why pay for a survey…if that
may be the major problem.?
I have an F-33. The booms were converted to straight booms with sail
tracks
added on the masts.
My comments:
Yes I added a Simpson Lawrence (not Lewmar) horizon 900 windlass. It
is forward of the mainmast. The chain has plenty of room in the forepeak
forward of the mast.
Some boats had aluminum toe rails others teak. Mine has teak so the
stanchions were a bit in board of this. The problem is that in some
places
the inside bolts go through the balsa core. They were bedded pretty
well but
still I had a couple that had leaked a little and the balsa was wet or
rotten around a few. On mine this was not extensive. I cut it out
from below
(messy job) and repaired it so the bolts didn’t go through balsa
just epoxy
and glass and added a large backing plate. However, if yours have
extensive
cracking on near the stanchion bases and the deck in general it could
generate the balsa core of the deck is rotted in larger areas. Have your
surveyor check this carefully as it would be an extensive and expensive
thing to repair.
I’ve never seen running backstays (just lazyjacks) on the main
although I guess if one wanted a main spinnaker.
The spartite company claims their formula is good for freedom masts
(although some older formulas may have been a bit soft). I used it
between
the masts and aluminum collars but still have the original rings beneath
this. Those rings are quite soft so I think the spartite is clearly hard
enough. I’ve had no problems with it and consider it a good
improvement.
We’re currently under contract to buy a 1981 Freedom 33 with wishbone
booms and wraparound sails. Can anyone out there help with a few
questions before our survey on Monday?
Has anyone installed a manual windlass on their F33? Where did
you put
it?
Did TPI do a good job of bedding stanchion base bolts? The ones on
this boat are decidedly ugly, with cracking all around them and
evidence of leaking through the hardware. The deck also has lots of
gel coat crazing under the nonskid.
Why are there running backstays on the mainmast? (there’s no
mizzen staysail, but that would use the mizzen running backs anyway,
right?)
The commissioning guide says to only use the plastic wedges
provided for the masts, but this boat has Spar-Tite around the masts.
Is that OK? Has anyone used it?
Since both Freedom groups are getting lots of posts, we’ll send this
out to both…sorry for the duplication. We really appreciate
everyone’s help and experience, and we’re excited about joining the
group as owners instead of lurkers!
Correction, I mean why pay for a survey, if you know in advance of a
moisture problem…By all means I believe in a survey…but see if
maisture is in the boat first before moving on.
To person looking to buy the F33 with cracks on deck…I turned down a
F32 for that very reason.
An expert on fiberglass and repair at a boatyard, told me on a
Freedom, doesn’t matter if water is getting in from santions, or the
cracks, on Freedoms the water travels, in all durections through the
Balsa wood, and turns it to mush. He showed me the process, and how
large spoons had to be used to SCOOP the mush bulsa out…he was
doing another boat at the time…the whole prosess was in the
thousands…more $ than I was willing to put into a boat…I also
was looking to look at the boat you are talking about. Your comments,
are all I need…I do not have to go look at that boat.
I ordered a water moister meter, that I will now test on the decks of
boats I will be looking at. I figure why pay for a survey…if that
may be the major problem.?
I have an F-33. The booms were converted to straight booms with sail
tracks
added on the masts.
My comments:
Yes I added a Simpson Lawrence (not Lewmar) horizon 900
windlass. It
is forward of the mainmast. The chain has plenty of room in the
forepeak
forward of the mast.
Some boats had aluminum toe rails others teak. Mine has teak so the
stanchions were a bit in board of this. The problem is that in some
places
the inside bolts go through the balsa core. They were bedded pretty
well but
still I had a couple that had leaked a little and the balsa was wet or
rotten around a few. On mine this was not extensive. I cut it out
from below
(messy job) and repaired it so the bolts didn’t go through balsa
just epoxy
and glass and added a large backing plate. However, if yours have
extensive
cracking on near the stanchion bases and the deck in general it could
generate the balsa core of the deck is rotted in larger areas.
Have your
surveyor check this carefully as it would be an extensive and
expensive
thing to repair.
I’ve never seen running backstays (just lazyjacks) on the main
although I guess if one wanted a main spinnaker.
The spartite company claims their formula is good for freedom masts
(although some older formulas may have been a bit soft). I used it
between
the masts and aluminum collars but still have the original rings
beneath
this. Those rings are quite soft so I think the spartite is
clearly hard
enough. I’ve had no problems with it and consider it a good
improvement.
We’re currently under contract to buy a 1981 Freedom 33 with wishbone
booms and wraparound sails. Can anyone out there help with a few
questions before our survey on Monday?
Has anyone installed a manual windlass on their F33? Where did
you put
it?
Did TPI do a good job of bedding stanchion base bolts? The ones on
this boat are decidedly ugly, with cracking all around them and
evidence of leaking through the hardware. The deck also has lots of
gel coat crazing under the nonskid.
Why are there running backstays on the mainmast? (there’s no
mizzen staysail, but that would use the mizzen running backs anyway,
right?)
The commissioning guide says to only use the plastic wedges
provided for the masts, but this boat has Spar-Tite around the masts.
Is that OK? Has anyone used it?
Since both Freedom groups are getting lots of posts, we’ll send this
out to both…sorry for the duplication. We really appreciate
everyone’s help and experience, and we’re excited about joining the
group as owners instead of lurkers!
So far, I’m not sure how much moisture is in the deck (if any) and
where it has gone. After looking at the boat, it is clearly time to
remove and re-bed the stanchions, which doesn’t seem to be too big a
job. (I haven’t checked all of them for access down below yet.)
Moisture inside the deck is a whole 'nuther problem, especially if it
goes more than an inch or two away from the stanchions.
Does anybody have experience with wet/failed decks on a F33 or other
Freedom? If the balsa turns to mush, how “soft” do the decks feel?
Is it possible to have a wet core over a large area and still have it
feel solid when you jump up and down on it? Will a moisture meter
accurately detect a wet core?
Thanks for your advice again!
Barry
On Nov 10, 2007 8:43 AM, lolaltd <lolaltd@…> wrote:
Correction, I mean why pay for a survey, if you know in advance of a
moisture problem…By all means I believe in a survey…but see if
maisture is in the boat first before moving on.
To person looking to buy the F33 with cracks on deck…I turned down a
F32 for that very reason.
An expert on fiberglass and repair at a boatyard, told me on a
Freedom, doesn’t matter if water is getting in from santions, or the
cracks, on Freedoms the water travels, in all durections through the
Balsa wood, and turns it to mush. He showed me the process, and how
large spoons had to be used to SCOOP the mush bulsa out…he was
doing another boat at the time…the whole prosess was in the
thousands…more $ than I was willing to put into a boat…I also
was looking to look at the boat you are talking about. Your comments,
are all I need…I do not have to go look at that boat.
I ordered a water moister meter, that I will now test on the decks of
boats I will be looking at. I figure why pay for a survey…if that
may be the major problem.?
Does anybody have experience with wet/failed decks on a F33 or
other
Freedom?
I recently(year ago) purchased fixer-upper Freedom 28 Cat Ketch.
It has bad water penetration into core on a cabin top, around
centerboard’s block (it’s centerboard model) I had to recore most of
the cabin top. Freedom has very thick outer skin - unless most of
the fiberglass cracked, you will not feel the difference between
roted core and solid core. Wet core isn’t a big problem - it is
still have very strong bond to skin. Rotted core is a problem.
You can dry out wet core. Rotted core need to be replaced.
Water can penetrate far beyond of access point.
I’d be very suspicious about any cracks on the outer skin.
Especially if there is no direct loading points around the cracks.
My experience fixing the boat says that if there is a crack than the
core is compromised.
I don’t believe much in gauges – I drilled holes from inside to
see how good the core is. I found quite a few places where the core
isn’t as good as it looks like. Most importand I found that if
there is any cluster of cracks on the outer or inner skin than there
is wet or rotted core…
Beware…
Good point about my boat - first owner disliked original rigs and
ordered new “conventional” rigs from a factory, including masts,
booms, sails and hardware. My 1980 Freedom 28 CK has second
generation of the masts - there is not a single crack on the masts.
Posted by Andrew Kinsey (captainkinsey@…>)
Barry, There is a very wide range of possibilities with regard to moisture and delamination in a balsa core deck, not to mention the hull. You can have moisture, but not have it extend to core deterioration or delamination. I have experience surveying a wide range of balsa cored vessels, as well as repair - including my own Freedom 36. Be very careful interpreting moisture meter readings. There are a wide range of meters on the market and their operation and sensitivity vary. Professional Boat Building has had a series of very good articles regarding meters http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/200608/ On a deck inspection my meter is the last thing I use. First is a visual inspection - stress cracking, discoloration. Also take a good look on the
interior - staining and discoloration in the head liner is a good indication of handrail leaks. Original installation from the factory was normally drilled straight thru the cabin top with no sealing of the end grain balsa coring. Second, after the visual inspection I conduct hammer testing. Percussion testing is normally more effective at finding delamination and voids than a meter. It does take awhile to know what you are listening for, but a very soft / rotted area will have a noticeable dull sound. After this the meter comes out to help verify findings with regard to delamination / rot and to help identify areas that have elevated moisture, but no delam. Hope this helps. Regards, Andrew Barry Stellrecht <yak@…> wrote: So far, I’m not sure how much moisture is in the deck (if any) andwhere it has gone. After looking at the boat, it is clearly time toremove and re-bed the stanchions, which doesn’t seem to be too big ajob. (I haven’t checked all of them for access down below yet.)Moisture inside the deck is a whole 'nuther problem, especially if itgoes more than an inch or two away from the stanchions.Does anybody have experience with wet/failed decks on a F33 or otherFreedom? If the balsa turns to mush, how “soft” do the decks feel?Is it possible to have a wet core over a large
area and still have itfeel solid when you jump up and down on it? Will a moisture meteraccurately detect a wet core?Thanks for your advice again!BarryOn Nov 10, 2007 8:43 AM, lolaltd <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote:> Correction, I mean why pay for a survey, if you know in advance of a> moisture problem…By all means I believe in a survey…but see if> maisture is in the boat first before moving on.>> — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “lolaltd” <lolaltd@…> wrote:> >> > To person looking to buy the F33 with cracks on deck…I turned down a> > F32 for that very reason.> > An expert on fiberglass and repair at a boatyard, told me on a> > Freedom, doesn’t matter if water is getting in from santions, or the> > cracks,
on Freedoms the water travels, in all durections through the> > Balsa wood, and turns it to mush. He showed me the process, and how> > large spoons had to be used to SCOOP the mush bulsa out…he was> > doing another boat at the time…the whole prosess was in the> > thousands…more $ than I was willing to put into a boat…I also> > was looking to look at the boat you are talking about. Your comments,> > are all I need…I do not have to go look at that boat.> >> > I ordered a water moister meter, that I will now test on the decks of> > boats I will be looking at. I figure why pay for a survey…if that> > may be the major problem.?> >> > Good luck,LolaAndrew KinseyCoastal Marine SurveysP.O Box 430Mattituck, NY 11952NAMS Certified Marine SurveyorSAMS Accredited Marine Surveyor #848ABYC Standards AccreditedUSCG Licensed Master, Unlimited Tonnage, Upon OceansPhone 631-298-9518Fax 631-298-5282Cell 631-807-8907 __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
I see you are getting a number of opinions from folks who have never
owned a Freedom, an interesting continuation of the great “Balsa”
debate.
Here is an interesting test that TPI did years ago … fabricated a
panel of Fiberglass with a end grain balsa core, left it under water
for a couple seasons and there was no penetration … the key is end
grain … water travels along the grain, but not across.
search for the word “penetration” and check it out
J/24s in the mid `70s, and even though he’d amassed a wealth of
knowledge in mechanically testing mostly industrial FRP parts,
not everyone was convinced balsa was a panacea for stiffening
fiberglass hulls. In fact, there was still a lot of resistance and
concern for water migration and rotting. But, “for impact resistance
and stiffness, balsa wood wins hands down,” Pearson
proclaimed. And he set out to prove his point. He made up an
end grain panel, drilled a few holes through it, anchored it to
some blocks, and submerged it in the Kickemuit in front of his
house. During low tide, the panel came up for air for about an
hour. Three years later he pulled the panel out of the river and
found virtually no water penetration.
“Rodney [Johnstone] and his brother Bob built the first J/24
with foam core,” Pearson recalls. “It sat in the cradle and you
could see the hull deform. The keel wasn’t properly supported,
and the weight went on to the poppet. This won’t happen with a
balsa hull.”
\
The Spartite question has already been answered … the boat had
Spartite at the deck level when I bought it, Spartite recommended it,
as did many Freedom owners on this site … as well as TPI … see
I see you are getting a number of opinions from folks who have
never
owned a Freedom, an interesting continuation of the great “Balsa”
debate.
Have you ever opened fiberglass “sandwich”?
Do you always believe people who is trying to sell you something?
The ‘end grain’ balsa panel is stiff. It will not lay on any but
flat surface. In order to make it “flexible”, core is cut to zillion
squares, very much like chess board.
Those cuts are perfect “highways” for water penetration. If
intrusion point is big enough, sooner or later huge area will be
affected. At the beginning there will be wet “lines” and dry square
centers, later rot will set along the lines if water is fresh.
Freedom has very think fiberglass. During my “excavation”, I had
comments from experienced people that outer skin on my freedom is
about as think as single skin on many other boats. As a result, it’s
hard to damage, and if damaged, it’s hard to see extend of water
penetration. On my boat deck was stiff and it didn’t sound dull in
many places where damage was “deadly” already
Don’t count on superb construction quality too. It may not be as
many cut corners in freedom as in other boats, but there are enough
weak spots…. I’ve seen quite a few holes cut througth core without
sealing by factory.
Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Even with end grain if you get some water in there and it freezes the game is up. Freeze thaw cycle of a normal North East winter is a killer. Just look at the roads up there if you need an example of the forces involved. But like the man says… it’s some thick fiberglass! Somewhere I got a chunk of hull where they cut out to install a bow thruster (I know I know but I wasn’t the one who did it) and I’ll try and get a photo of that. Georgevladimir_ud <eremeev@…> wrote: — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “paulsebra” <paulsebra@…> wrote: > I see you are getting a number of opinions from folks who have never > owned a Freedom, an interesting continuation of the great “Balsa” > debate. Have you ever opened fiberglass “sandwich”? Do you always believe people who is trying to sell you something? The ‘end grain’ balsa panel is stiff. It will not lay on any but flat surface. In order to make it “flexible”, core is cut to zillion squares, very much like chess board. Those cuts are perfect “highways” for water penetration. If intrusion point is big enough, sooner or later huge area will be affected. At the beginning there will be wet “lines” and dry square centers, later rot will set along the lines if water is fresh. Freedom has very think fiberglass. During my
“excavation”, I had comments from experienced people that outer skin on my freedom is about as think as single skin on many other boats. As a result, it’s hard to damage, and if damaged, it’s hard to see extend of water penetration. On my boat deck was stiff and it didn’t sound dull in many places where damage was “deadly” already Don’t count on superb construction quality too. It may not be as many cut corners in freedom as in other boats, but there are enough weak spots…. I’ve seen quite a few holes cut througth core without sealing by factory.
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If the balsa is rotted away completely, ther will be a lot of play
in the deck when you move on it. The balsa is at least 3/4" thick
and the top laminate only 1/4" or so, so you really notice rotted
balsa. Whet happens more often, is wet balsa, this it the stage
before it rots. Rotting needs oxygen, so there needs to be a large
hole. A small leak will wet the core but it will take long to get it
to rot. Of course you don’t want a wet core, but it still gives the
strength it needs to give. The balso functions a a spacer between
the two layers of laminate, and that creates the stiffness.
So far, I’m not sure how much moisture is in the deck (if any) and
where it has gone. After looking at the boat, it is clearly time
to
remove and re-bed the stanchions, which doesn’t seem to be too big
a
job. (I haven’t checked all of them for access down below yet.)
Moisture inside the deck is a whole 'nuther problem, especially if
it
goes more than an inch or two away from the stanchions.
Does anybody have experience with wet/failed decks on a F33 or
other
Freedom? If the balsa turns to mush, how “soft” do the decks feel?
Is it possible to have a wet core over a large area and still have
it
feel solid when you jump up and down on it? Will a moisture meter
accurately detect a wet core?
Thanks for your advice again!
Barry
On Nov 10, 2007 8:43 AM, lolaltd <lolaltd@…> wrote:
Correction, I mean why pay for a survey, if you know in advance
of a
moisture problem…By all means I believe in a survey…but see
if
maisture is in the boat first before moving on.
To person looking to buy the F33 with cracks on deck…I
turned down a
F32 for that very reason.
An expert on fiberglass and repair at a boatyard, told me on a
Freedom, doesn’t matter if water is getting in from santions,
or the
cracks, on Freedoms the water travels, in all durections
through the
Balsa wood, and turns it to mush. He showed me the process,
and how
large spoons had to be used to SCOOP the mush bulsa out…he
was
doing another boat at the time…the whole prosess was in the
thousands…more $ than I was willing to put into a
boat…I also
was looking to look at the boat you are talking about. Your
comments,
are all I need…I do not have to go look at that boat.
I ordered a water moister meter, that I will now test on the
decks of
boats I will be looking at. I figure why pay for a survey…if
that
may be the major problem.?