Hull thickness

[George_Huffman]

Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or F44 hull but I
did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the
cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Michel,I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our hull section. It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective. The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or so on the inside. This was a piece that was cut out when the bow thruster was installed before we bought the boat. The lug I just took out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall. What a tank! George— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM

Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or F44 hull but I
did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the
cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

\

[macks011]

Posted by macks011 (macks02@…>)

Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant
is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should
never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few
marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step
beddings.
Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a
Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is
the best all around material for these jobs.
Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties
and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.
We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and
all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch
to fix one.









— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[Robert1]

Posted by Robert (robert@…>)

The F32H is known to be a lightweight boat for its size, this is confirmed by the hull layup. A couple of months ago I installed air conditioning and heat under the V-Berth and put in port & stbd thru-hulls. I saved the plugs of material I removed and the measurements are: Outer hull FRP is 3/16" thick, the inner hull FRP is 1/8" and there is 3/4" end grain balsa making a total of 1-1/16"

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffmanSent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:48 AMTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness






Michel,I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our hull section. It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective. The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or so on the inside. This was a piece that was cut out when the bow thruster was installed before we bought the boat. The lug I just took out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall. What a tank! George— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@yahoo.com>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM


Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or F44 hull but Idid not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that thecockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:>> It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick> including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull> (exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used> 5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that corewas. > > Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7 > > George>

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Oh its on now Macks! heh heh But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant in the spirit of information and oppinion sharing; is in no way personal, and is not intended to inflame. Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew safety is involved I just smile and carry on.
Incidently, some teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been assembled with 5200.But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue. Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or maybe best anchor… George— On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:From: macks011 <macks02@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM

Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant
is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should
never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few
marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step
beddings.
Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a
Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is
the best all around material for these jobs.
Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties
and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.
We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and
all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch
to fix one.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

\

[Bob1]

Posted by Bob (rweeks6508@…>)
They have several new products that will make 5200 feel like silly putty and can be removed.BobOn Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:24 PM, george huffman wrote:Oh its on now Macks! heh heh But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant in the spirit of information and oppinion sharing; is in no way personal, and is not intended to inflame. Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew safety is involved I just smile and carry on. Incidently, some teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been assembled with 5200. But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue. Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or maybe best anchor… George — On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@optonline. net> wrote: From: macks011 <macks02@optonline. net> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step beddings. Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is the best all around material for these jobs. Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights. We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch to fix one. — In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman” <thatboatguy2@ …> wrote: > > It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick > including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull > (exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used > 5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core was. > > Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7 > > George >

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Yes sir Mr. Bob they sure do. Heat works well also but you need to moderate so hold the heat gun in one hand and the non-contact thermometer in the other. Easy does it. George— On Thu, 11/20/08, Bob <rweeks6508@…> wrote:From: Bob <rweeks6508@…>Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comCc: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:01 PM

They have several new products that will make 5200 feel like silly putty and can be removed.BobOn Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:24 PM, george huffman wrote:Oh its on now Macks! heh heh But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant in the spirit of information and
oppinion sharing; is in no way personal, and is not intended to inflame. Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew safety is involved I just smile and carry on. Incidently, some teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been assembled with 5200. But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue. Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or maybe best anchor… George — On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@optonline. net> wrote: From: macks011 <macks02@optonline. net> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few marine uses are hull/deck joints,
hull/keel joints and mast step beddings. Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is the best all around material for these jobs. Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights. We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch to fix one. — In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman” <thatboatguy2@ …> wrote: > > It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick >
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull > (exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used > 5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core was. > > Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7 > > George >

[Skipper_Skip1]

Posted by Skipper Skip (skipperf33@…>)
Being one that has had unbelievably difficult job to remove both my aluminum toe rail as well as having to CUT my 2 inch thick TEAK bowsprit into to small bit size pieces in order to remove it. I can attest to the fact that 5200 is there to stay! That stuff was so sticky that it literally pulled the gelcoat way from its underlayment in many spots.

However, after 26 years, the 5200 was still very pliable and water tight! Take it for what it¢s worth, but I found the old 5200 to be as soft and pliable as newly installed and set Polysulfide! I feel that if your willing to take the chance that you might have to SWEAT BLOOD to perform a fix, 5200 is a proven structural adhesive as well as caulking! When I re-bedded my toe rain, I used copious amounts of Polysulfide, let it come to a set and THEN tightened the bolts that last 20%. No runs, no drips, no errors, and no leaks… yet:)

BTW, if you can get to the joint, a base string off a guitar tied between two large bolts works like a saw and will cut/melt its way through 5200. Removing what is left from the deck is another story. A good sharp wood chisel and hammer works pretty well. It is here that you will see the 5200 pull pieces of gelcoat away from the glass. THAT WAS SCARY BUSINESS!

Skip
1982 F33CK, Fixed Shoal Keel
Souther CA.— On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:
From: macks011 <macks02@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 5:13 AM


Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step beddings.Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is the best all around material for these jobs.Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch to fix one.— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman” <thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:>>
It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick> including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull> (exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used> 5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core was. > > Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7 > > George>

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

George,

The section on the photo seems to be a special reinforced area,
judging from the three separate layers of outer laminate. I’m not
surprised that it’s from the bow section. I have a section of my deck
in the vicinity of the mizzen mast. The core is doubled up there as is
the outer laminate. And there is an extra layer of glass between the
two balsa plates.

Michel


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

Michel,

I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our
hull section.� It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective.�
The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or
so on the inside.� This was a piece that was cut out when the bow
thruster was installed before we bought the boat.� The lug I just took
out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall.� :)�
What a tank!�

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM

        Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or

F44 hull but I

did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the

cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[macks011]

Posted by macks011 (macks02@…>)

Hi George: You bring up a point that I feel requires some more
discussion: …“I would not dream of attaching or installing anything
near or below the waterline with anything but 5200.”…There should
be no need, in a properly designed application, to rely on the
adhesive properties of 5200 in a through hull installation. A well
designed thru hull consists of a thru hull fitting, the hull, a
backing plate and a seacock in a mechanical sandwich. The hull and
backing plate connection, being permenant, can be epoxied or 5200’ed
in place. The seacock is lagged into the backing plate or thrubolted
and that is where the forces on the system are the greatest and are
taken care of mechanically. The thru hull fitting (having a machine
thread) will run up as far as is allowed by the thickness of the
hull. There should be NO mechanical forces on the thru hull fitting
itself other than compression. The sealant to be used, in forseeably
removable installation, is a polysulfide.

If you want to bed a bobstay, anchor roller,or swim platform, 5200 is
fine. You want to add a sugar scoop, repair a hull/deck joint or re
bed a keel, skeg, or strut: 5200 is your tool of choice. However, in
foreseeably impermenant installations (nice alliteration) it is not.

One more point regarding professional opinion; 4 0ut of five dentists
and all that? I’m the 5th dentist. (grin)


\

Oh its on now Macks! heh heh

But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant
in the spirit of information and oppinion sharing; is in no way
personal, and is not intended to inflame.

Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove
that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do
it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of
attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with
anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a
professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger
hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew
safety is involved I just smile and carry on. Incidently, some
teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone
with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been
assembled with 5200.

But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue.

Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or
maybe best anchor…

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:
From: macks011 <macks02@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM

        Please, I don't want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or

any variant

is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should

never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the
few

marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step

beddings.

Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a

Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is

the best all around material for these jobs.

Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex

properties

and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.

 We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better

and

all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a
bitch

to fix one.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches
thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru
hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I
used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[Robert1]

Posted by Robert (robert@…>)

My preference is to use 3M’s 101 marine sealant. It is a good allround polysulfide sealant for above and below the waterline that remains more flexible than others, is easier to remove when necessary.


From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of macks011Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 8:33 AMTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comSubject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness


Hi George: You bring up a point that I feel requires some more discussion: …“I would not dream of attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with anything but 5200.”…There should be no need, in a properly designed application, to rely on the adhesive properties of 5200 in a through hull installation. A well designed thru hull consists of a thru hull fitting, the hull, a backing plate and a seacock in a mechanical sandwich. The hull and backing plate connection, being permenant, can be epoxied or 5200’ed in place. The seacock is lagged into the backing plate or thrubolted and that is where the forces on the system are the greatest and are taken care of mechanically. The thru hull fitting (having a machine thread) will run up as far as is allowed by the thickness of the hull. There should be NO mechanical forces on the thru hull fitting itself other than compression. The sealant to be used, in forseeably removable installation, is a polysulfide. If you want to bed a bobstay, anchor roller,or swim platform, 5200 is fine. You want to add a sugar scoop, repair a hull/deck joint or re bed a keel, skeg, or strut: 5200 is your tool of choice. However, in foreseeably impermenant installations (nice alliteration) it is not.One more point regarding professional opinion; 4 0ut of five dentists and all that? I’m the 5th dentist. (grin)> Oh its on now Macks! heh heh > > But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant in the spirit of information and oppinion sharing; is in no way personal, and is not intended to inflame. > > Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew safety is involved I just smile and carry on. Incidently, some teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been assembled with 5200.> > But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue. > > Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or maybe best anchor… > > George> > — On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:> From: macks011 <macks02@…>> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness> To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com> Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant > > is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should > > never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few > > marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step > > beddings.> > Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a > > Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is > > the best all around material for these jobs.> > Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties > > and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.> > We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and > > all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch > > to fix one.> > > > — In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman” > > <thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:> > >> > > It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick> > > including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull> > > (exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used> > > 5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core > > was. > > > > > > Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7 > > > > > > George> > >>

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Hey Michel, I thought so too when we first bought the boat and found that plug. But I just took “core sample” from behind the galley stove where the water from the a/c unit discharges and that core is nearly as thick if not just as thick! I’ll take a comparison photo today if I can remember to bring the camera down to the boat. George— On Fri, 11/21/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, November 21, 2008, 4:44 AM

George,

The section on the photo seems to be a special reinforced area,
judging from the three separate layers of outer laminate. I’m not
surprised that it’s from the bow section. I have a section of my deck
in the vicinity of the mizzen mast. The core is doubled up there as is
the outer laminate. And there is an extra layer of glass between the
two balsa plates.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

Michel,

I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our
hull section.� It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective.�
The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or
so on the inside.� This was a piece that was cut out when the bow
thruster was installed before we bought the boat.� The lug I just took
out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall.� :)�
What a tank!�

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …> wrote:
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM

Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or
F44 hull but I

did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the

cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

\

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
It’s a very well written and thought out post Macks, I can’t get my teeth into it at any point and maybe only a fingernail here and there so I feel we have reached that point at which I’ll raise my morning coffee cup to you, Dentist number 5 and move along. George— On Fri, 11/21/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:From: macks011 <macks02@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, November 21, 2008, 8:33 AM

Hi George: You bring up a point that I feel requires some more
discussion: …“I would not dream of attaching or installing anything
near or below the waterline with anything but 5200.”…There should
be no need, in a properly designed application, to rely on the
adhesive properties of 5200 in a through hull installation. A well
designed thru hull consists of a thru hull fitting, the hull, a
backing plate and a seacock in a mechanical sandwich. The hull and
backing plate connection, being permenant, can be epoxied or 5200’ed
in place. The seacock is lagged into the backing plate or thrubolted
and that is where the forces on the system are the greatest and are
taken care of mechanically. The thru hull fitting (having a machine
thread) will run up as far as is allowed by the thickness of the
hull. There should be NO mechanical forces on the thru hull fitting
itself other than compression. The sealant to be used, in forseeably
removable installation, is a polysulfide.

If you want to bed a bobstay, anchor roller,or swim platform, 5200 is
fine. You want to add a sugar scoop, repair a hull/deck joint or re
bed a keel, skeg, or strut: 5200 is your tool of choice. However, in
foreseeably impermenant installations (nice alliteration) it is not.

One more point regarding professional opinion; 4 0ut of five dentists
and all that? I’m the 5th dentist. (grin)

Oh its on now Macks! heh heh

But on the serious side let it be known that the following is meant
in the spirit of information and oppinion sharing; is in no way
personal, and is not intended to inflame.

Actually 5200 is both adhesive and sealant. If I want to remove
that through hull (even after the 52 day nominal cure time) I can do
it quite easily because I know how. I would not dream of
attaching or installing anything near or below the waterline with
anything but 5200. I realize this is opinion but it is a
professional opinion that is widely shared. As for a bigger
hammer… well… whenever I’m criticized for overkill where crew
safety is involved I just smile and carry on. Incidently, some
teak cleaners will soften 5200 over time. Just an FYI for anyone
with a teak rubrail or trim near a hull/deck joint that has been
assembled with 5200.

But thanks for watching my 6 on that silicone issue.

Next I think we should maybe discuss the merits of guns onboard or
maybe best anchor…

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@… > wrote:
From: macks011 <macks02@… >
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:13 AM

Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or
any variant

is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should

never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the
few

marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step

beddings.

Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a

Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is

the best all around material for these jobs.

Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex
properties

and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.

We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better
and

all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a
bitch

to fix one.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches
thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru
hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I
used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

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[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

Gee George, That’s truly amazing, if that hull is so heavy all around.
You could hit a floating log or container and get away with only
superficial damage.

Michel




— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

Hey Michel,

I thought so too when we first bought the boat and found that plug.�
But I just took “core sample” from behind the galley stove where the
water from the a/c unit discharges and that core is nearly as thick if
not just as thick!� I’ll take a comparison photo today if I can
remember to bring the camera down to the boat.

George
— On Fri, 11/21/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 4:44 AM

        George,

The section on the photo seems to be a special reinforced area,

judging from the three separate layers of outer laminate. I’m not

surprised that it’s from the bow section. I have a section of my deck

in the vicinity of the mizzen mast. The core is doubled up there as is

the outer laminate. And there is an extra layer of glass between the

two balsa plates.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, george huffman

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

Michel,

I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our

hull section.� It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective.�

The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or

so on the inside.� This was a piece that was cut out when the bow

thruster was installed before we bought the boat.� The lug I just took

out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall.� :)�

What a tank!�

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …> wrote:

From: michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>

Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness

To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM

        Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or

F44 hull but I

did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the

cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[katorpus1]

Posted by katorpus (jrb@…>)

Uhmmmm…floating log maybe, container, not likely

Hitting a container would be like running into a jetty at whatever
speed you happened to be making at the time (except that the water
around it would likely be deeper)

Picture a Volkswagen rear ending a semi-truck that happened to be
stopped on the side of the road, out of gear with the brakes off…sure
it will move a little, but not enough to matter.




— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “michel.capel”
<michel.capel@…> wrote:

Gee George, That’s truly amazing, if that hull is so heavy all around.
You could hit a floating log or container and get away with only
superficial damage.

Michel

[george_huffman1]

Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Egads Michel! Do not tempt the fates! heh hehGeorge— On Fri, 11/21/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@…> wrote:From: michel.capel <michel.capel@…>Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thicknessTo: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.comDate: Friday, November 21, 2008, 3:24 PM

Gee George, That’s truly amazing, if that hull is so heavy all around.
You could hit a floating log or container and get away with only
superficial damage.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, george huffman
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

Hey Michel,

I thought so too when we first bought the boat and found that plug.�
But I just took “core sample” from behind the galley stove where the
water from the a/c unit discharges and that core is nearly as thick if
not just as thick!� I’ll take a comparison photo today if I can
remember to bring the camera down to the boat.

George
— On Fri, 11/21/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …> wrote:
From: michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 4:44 AM

George,

The section on the photo seems to be a special reinforced area,

judging from the three separate layers of outer laminate. I’m not

surprised that it’s from the bow section. I have a section of my deck

in the vicinity of the mizzen mast. The core is doubled up there as is

the outer laminate. And there is an extra layer of glass between the

two balsa plates.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, george huffman

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

Michel,

I may have posted this before but here’s a link to a photo of our

hull section.� It’s shown with a U.S. Quarter Dollar for perspective.�

The outer hull is about 1/2 thick, an inch of balsa and another 3/8 or

so on the inside.� This was a piece that was cut out when the bow

thruster was installed before we bought the boat.� The lug I just took

out behind the galley stove was exactly 2 inch thick overall.� :)�

What a tank!�

George

— On Thu, 11/20/08, michel.capel <michel.capel@ …> wrote:

From: michel.capel <michel.capel@ …>

Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: Hull thickness

To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 3:51 AM

Two inches is a lot; I did not find that on my F33 or

F44 hull but I

did not drill holes everywhere to check it out ;^). I found that the

cockpit sides on the F44 are quite thin, only 5 or 6 mm. (1/4").

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”

<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick

including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull

(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used

5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core

was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

\

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

I had to remove my six deck hatches for the spray paint job on AQ. I
used the guitar string technique, but I used a high tone string which
I heated with a blow torch every minute. The remains of the 5200 I got
off fairly easily with a paint removing heat gun. But don’t stick your
nose in the 5200 fumes. I also tore off pieces of gel coat before I
started vwith the heat gun. Low or medium heat is enough to soften the
5200.

Michel

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, Skipper Skip
<skipperf33@…> wrote:

Being one that has had unbelievably difficult job to remove both my
aluminum toe rail as well as having to CUT my 2 inch thick TEAK
bowsprit into to small bit size pieces in order to remove it. I can
attest to the fact that 5200 is there to stay! That stuff was so
sticky that it literally pulled the gelcoat way from its underlayment
in many spots.

However, after 26 years, the 5200 was still very pliable and water
tight! Take it for what it¢s worth, but I found the old 5200 to be as
soft and pliable as newly installed and set Polysulfide! I feel that
if your willing to take the chance that you might have to SWEAT BLOOD
to perform a fix, 5200 is a proven structural adhesive as well as
caulking! When I re-bedded my toe rain, I used copious amounts of
Polysulfide, let it come to a set and THEN tightened the bolts that
last 20%. No runs, no drips, no errors, and no leaks… yet:)

BTW, if you can get to the joint, a base string off a guitar tied
between two large bolts works like a saw and will cut/melt its way
through 5200. Removing what is left from the deck is another story. A
good sharp wood chisel and hammer works pretty well. It is here that
you will see the 5200 pull pieces of gelcoat away from the glass. THAT
WAS SCARY BUSINESS!

Skip
1982 F33CK, Fixed Shoal Keel
Souther CA.

— On Thu, 11/20/08, macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:

From: macks011 <macks02@…>
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: Hull thickness
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 20, 2008, 5:13 AM

Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant
is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should
never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few
marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step
beddings.
Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a
Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is
the best all around material for these jobs.
Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties
and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.
We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and
all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch
to fix one.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@ …> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

[sgaber]

Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)

5200 is incrredibly strong. It is used in the aviation industry.

In 1963-64 I worked for Boeing Vertol in Morton, Pa, building the CH-47A
Chinook, a big twin-rotor helicopter. Large sections of that aircraft are
bonded with 5200. There were whole crews who did nothing but bind structures
together. Many of those machines are still flying 40 years later and are older
than their pilots.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL
---- macks011 <macks02@…> wrote:

Please, I don’t want to start a flame war, but: 5200 or any variant
is a polyurethane. Polyurethane is an ADEHESIVE and as such should
never be used for anything you might have to remove. Some of the few
marine uses are hull/deck joints, hull/keel joints and mast step
beddings.
Below and above waterline hardwere should be bedded with a
Polysulfide. Polysulfide is a CAULK and/or Bedding Compound and is
the best all around material for these jobs.
Last but not least is Silicone. Silicone has high flex properties
and its primary purpose is in bedding portlights.
We all hve a tendency to use a bigger hammer, more is better and
all that. 5200 will not prevent a leak, it will only make it a bitch
to fix one.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “George Huffman”
<thatboatguy2@…> wrote:

It never ceases to amaze me how thick our hull is. Two inches thick
including an inch of balsa. I just made a hole for an a/c thru hull
(exit) and installed a bronze through hull (don’t cringe Skip I used
5200! ). I was also proud and happy to see how dry that core
was.

Freedom 40 CK CC Hull number 7

George

–