I want to install Mast Steps

[Bob_Weeks]

Posted by Bob Weeks (rweeks6508@…>)


The ATN climber (name?) is about
$400. To rent the marina crane is $150 plus $70/hr labor or your labor.
So again I am taking the high road and it would seems to me that a good portion
of the people on this forum are not youngsters, rent the crane its safer!!!
There is nothing up there that is do or die and needs immediate
attention. VHF all of us should have a handheld for dingy use, wind vane use
some record cassette tape tied on a halyard will help, anchor steaming light
use your portable cockpit light pulled half way up with the spinnaker or jib
halyard where other boats can actually see it.

Bob

From:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04
AM
To:
FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps

Hey Alan,

A grigri, (or other device like it) could be a good added safety device if you
attach it such that it can’t get out of your reach. The Top Climber is
nice but I’ve set my jumars up in such a way that I’m more like stair climbing
than inch worming my way up the mast. I’ve learned that it’s not even
enough to focus on the task at hand and think every move through before making
it (not my forte) but that I need to think the entire process through from
start to finish. I too once did the nautical equivelant of painting
myself into a corner. Maybe we should make lapel pins…

I was anchored out near Poquoson Va. for a couple weeks doing boat mainenance and letting
my little retirement check catch up with my budget before shoving off for Block Island and points north. I needed to replace
the antenna for the VHF that was located on my Missen Mast (Allied
Princess). I took a very long line that I always have onboard and rigged
it through a set of vang blocks, hoisted that aloft and simply pulled myself
aloft. I was using the Prussic Knot safety method I’ve described
before. I finished the antenna install about the time that I could no
longer feel anything in my legs from blood circulation loss. When I tried
to lower myself I found that the tail end of the line had fouled itself on deck
hardware! There was very little boat traffic in my little corner of Va. and whenever I tried
to hollar and wave someone over they would point and swerve… away! They
thought I was yelling for wake abatement. I really didn’t feel safe tring
to climb down with no feeling in my legs and was wondering if I would ever walk
the earth again. At last I got the tail end of that line free by
laboriously whipping it around from aloft. heh heh Live and learn
eh? So your point concerning compelxity is well taken Alan.

George

Alan Kusinitz
<akusinitz@yahoo.com> wrote:




Just a comment on complexity. I use an ATN
Top climber (www.atninc.com). It
seems quite safe and you can go up on your own.


The first time I used it I decided to add
further redundancy/complexity. On a separate line I attached one of
those “climbers gadgets” that you have to release to slide down the
rope and that was hooked to the ATN as well.


Going up was no problem. On the way down I
got myself into a situation where the mechanism on the ATN had tension on it
(could not be released) and there was also tension on the safety I set up (I
forgot to release it before lowering the next stage on the ATN).


No chance of falling but I was near the
top of the mast and it was early evening. I actually wondered if I’d be
spending the night.


Eventually I managed to create slack so I
could get down but it was quite a struggle.


In this case the complexity and a user
error combined.


Alan F-33 1982 SEAPR

\

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:22
AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps


\

Alternatively you can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big
loop of 1 inch tube strap and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are
going to encounter spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on
above the obstacle before you unhook from below. It does add a step to
your ascent if you are self ascending or you have to manage it while being
hoisted aloft. But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing
in this case. A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as
a great way to avoid getting into the Darwin awards.

George

sgaber@tampabay.rr.com
wrote:





That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should
have a halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck
to tie it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be
held at any point so you don’t need anothe hand.

A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL

---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Lola,

I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast
steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps
at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail
due
to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to
rat-lines,
which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They
were
used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem
with
using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go
aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile…

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats
and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an
angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more
experienced can
tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the
time…LolaF30

Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:

Randy,

If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a
stable
secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast
steps at
equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while
doing
your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but
at least
you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the
chair
or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to
scrap
this idea.

\

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[Alan_Kusinitz]

Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)


My main concern is tangled or lost
halyards while cruising. Need some way to get up there for such a
situation.
Alan F-33 Hull #51.

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Weeks
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:56
PM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps

The ATN climber (name?) is about $400. To rent the marina
crane is $150 plus $70/hr labor or your labor. So again I am taking the
high road and it would seems to me that a good portion of the people on this
forum are not youngsters, rent the crane its safer!!! There is nothing up
there that is do or die and needs immediate attention. VHF all of us
should have a handheld for dingy use, wind vane use some record cassette tape
tied on a halyard will help, anchor steaming light use your portable cockpit
light pulled half way up with the spinnaker or jib halyard where other boats
can actually see it.

Bob

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04
AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps

Hey Alan,

A grigri, (or other device like it) could be a good added safety device if you
attach it such that it can’t get out of your reach. The Top Climber is
nice but I’ve set my jumars up in such a way that I’m more like stair climbing
than inch worming my way up the mast. I’ve learned that it’s not even enough
to focus on the task at hand and think every move through before making it (not
my forte) but that I need to think the entire process through from start to
finish. I too once did the nautical equivelant of painting myself into a
corner. Maybe we should make lapel pins…

I was anchored out near Poquoson Va. for a couple weeks doing boat mainenance and
letting my little retirement check catch up with my budget before shoving off
for Block Island and points
north. I needed to replace the antenna for the VHF that was located on my
Missen Mast (Allied Princess). I took a very long line that I always have
onboard and rigged it through a set of vang blocks, hoisted that aloft and
simply pulled myself aloft. I was using the Prussic Knot safety method I’ve
described before. I finished the antenna install about the time that I
could no longer feel anything in my legs from blood circulation loss.
When I tried to lower myself I found that the tail end of the line had fouled
itself on deck hardware! There was very little boat traffic in my little
corner of Va.
and whenever I tried to hollar and wave someone over they would point and
swerve… away! They thought I was yelling for wake abatement. I
really didn’t feel safe tring to climb down with no feeling in my legs and was
wondering if I would ever walk the earth again. At last I got the tail
end of that line free by laboriously whipping it around from aloft. heh
heh Live and learn eh? So your point concerning compelxity is well
taken Alan.

George

Alan Kusinitz
<akusinitz@yahoo.com> wrote:




Just a comment on complexity. I use an ATN Top climber (www.atninc.com). It seems quite
safe and you can go up on your own.


The first time I used it I decided to add further
redundancy/complexity. On a separate line I attached one of those
“climbers gadgets” that you have to release to slide down the rope
and that was hooked to the ATN as well.


Going up was no problem. On the way down I got myself into a
situation where the mechanism on the ATN had tension on it (could not be
released) and there was also tension on the safety I set up (I forgot to
release it before lowering the next stage on the ATN).


No chance of falling but I was near the top of the mast and it was
early evening. I actually wondered if I’d be spending the night.


Eventually I managed to create slack so I could get down but it was
quite a struggle.


In this case the complexity and a user error combined.


Alan F-33 1982 SEAPR

\

From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:22
AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps



\

Alternatively you
can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big loop of 1 inch tube strap
and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are going to encounter
spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on above the obstacle
before you unhook from below. It does add a step to your ascent if you
are self ascending or you have to manage it while being hoisted aloft.
But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing in this case.
A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as a great way to
avoid getting into the Darwin awards.

George

sgaber@tampabay.rr.com
wrote:





That’s why any
time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should have a halyard attached
to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck to tie it off. Or use
one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be held at any point so
you don’t need anothe hand.

A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century.

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar,
FL

---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Lola,

I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast
steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps
at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail
due
to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to
rat-lines,
which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They
were
used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem
with
using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go
aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile…

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats
and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an
angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more
experienced can
tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the
time…LolaF30

Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:

Randy,

If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a
stable
secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast
steps at
equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while
doing
your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but
at least
you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the
chair
or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to
scrap
this idea.

\

\

Be a better
friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.







\

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friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.






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[Bob1]

Posted by Bob (rweeks6508@…>)
I agree and the other night Fred explain to me that the extra pulley up there is for a flag but you can use that to pull up your spare main halyard until you get back in. At least on the F-30 nothing else is up there in the way of halyards other then further down is the spinnaker and jib halyard which are perfect up backs for each other. So only the tangled issue how to contect with…no thought on that one. I just can see myself up there no one around and like the other guy the bitter end is tangled and caught up and next thing you know the wife is selling the boat, cashing the life insurance check and head south with George Clooney!BobOn Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Alan Kusinitz wrote:My main concern is tangled or lost halyards while cruising. Need some way to get up there for such a situation. Alan F-33 Hull #51. ___________________________________From: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Bob Weeks Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:56 PM To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: I want to install Mast Steps The ATN climber (name?) is about $400. To rent the marina crane is $150 plus $70/hr labor or your labor. So again I am taking the high road and it would seems to me that a good portion of the people on this forum are not youngsters, rent the crane its safer!!! There is nothing up there that is do or die and needs immediate attention. VHF all of us should have a handheld for dingy use, wind vane use some record cassette tape tied on a halyard will help, anchor steaming light use your portable cockpit light pulled half way up with the spinnaker or jib halyard where other boats can actually see it. Bob ___________________________________From: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: FreedomOwne rsGroup@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of george huffman Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 AM To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com Subject: RE: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: I want to install Mast Steps Hey Alan, A grigri, (or other device like it) could be a good added safety device if you attach it such that it can’t get out of your reach. The Top Climber is nice but I’ve set my jumars up in such a way that I’m more like stair climbing than inch worming my way up the mast. I’ve learned that it’s not even enough to focus on the task at hand and think every move through before making it (not my forte) but that I need to think the entire process through from start to finish. I too once did the nautical equivelant of painting myself into a corner. Maybe we should make lapel pins… I was anchored out near Poquoson Va. for a couple weeks doing boat mainenance and letting my little retirement check catch up with my budget before shoving off for Block Island and points north. I needed to replace the antenna for the VHF that was located on my Missen Mast (Allied Princess). I took a very long line that I always have onboard and rigged it through a set of vang blocks, hoisted that aloft and simply pulled myself aloft. I was using the Prussic Knot safety method I’ve described before. I finished the antenna install about the time that I could no longer feel anything in my legs from blood circulation loss. When I tried to lower myself I found that the tail end of the line had fouled itself on deck hardware! There was very little boat traffic in my little corner of Va. and whenever I tried to hollar and wave someone over they would point and swerve… away! They thought I was yelling for wake abatement. I really didn’t feel safe tring to climb down with no feeling in my legs and was wondering if I would ever walk the earth again. At last I got the tail end of that line free by laboriously whipping it around from aloft. heh heh Live and learn eh? So your point concerning compelxity is well taken Alan. George Alan Kusinitz <akusinitz@yahoo. com> wrote: Just a comment on complexity. I use an ATN Top climber ( www.atninc.com). It seems quite safe and you can go up on your own. The first time I used it I decided to add further redundancy/complexi ty. On a separate line I attached one of those “climbers gadgets” that you have to release to slide down the rope and that was hooked to the ATN as well. Going up was no problem. On the way down I got myself into a situation where the mechanism on the ATN had tension on it (could not be released) and there was also tension on the safety I set up (I forgot to release it before lowering the next stage on the ATN). No chance of falling but I was near the top of the mast and it was early evening. I actually wondered if I’d be spending the night. Eventually I managed to create slack so I could get down but it was quite a struggle. In this case the complexity and a user error combined. Alan F-33 1982 SEAPR ___________________________________From: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of george huffman Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:22 AM To: FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup ] Re: I want to install Mast Steps Alternatively you can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big loop of 1 inch tube strap and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are going to encounter spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on above the obstacle before you unhook from below. It does add a step to your ascent if you are self ascending or you have to manage it while being hoisted aloft. But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing in this case. A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as a great way to avoid getting into the Darwin awards. George sgaber@tampabay. rr.com wrote: That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should have a halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck to tie it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be held at any point so you don’t need anothe hand. A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century. Steve Gaber Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77 Oldsmar , FL ---- Jay Glen < svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote: > Hi Lola, > > I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast > steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps > at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due > to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to rat-lines, > which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were > used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem with > using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go > aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile… > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson < lolaltd@yahoo. com> wrote: > > > Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats > > and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an > > angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can > > tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30 > > > > > > Jay Glen < svfantasy@gmail. com> wrote: > > > > Randy, > > > > If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable > > secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at > > equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while doing > > your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least > > you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair > > or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap > > this idea. > > > ___________________________________Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___________________________________Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

In stead of stainless rivets (long enough to get their ‘blob’ inside
the mast, and not halfway in the hole, which destroys the laminate)
you can also drill and tap and use machine screws. Drill a tight
hole, then tap thread, and use minmal thickness 8mm screws (course
thread). The thicker the screw the better, because the thread has to
take the load, so the longer the tread the better. And use
locktite. Of course, the wider apart the holes the better, but I
think at least 1/2" between then is okay.


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Bill Williams”
<escbill@…> wrote:

From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes
drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory
engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to
be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless
steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast.
Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to
catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this
is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten
hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are
pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the
damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…

Bill

[descalera1]

Posted by descalera1@…> (descalera1@…>)

DO NOT USE SCREWS!

Bill is correct. The use of screws, even machine screws will compromise a
larger area of the laminate and encourage crack propagation. Rivits were
originally chosen because they caused the least damage to the laminate. To
reduce galvanic corrosion with the carbon, the rivits were coated before
installation. If screws must be used, inserts should be epoxied into the
laminate.

I would recommend consulting a composite engineer whenever drilling holes in the
high load areas from the step to well above the gooseneck and around the hounds.

Dwight Escalera


---- “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:

In stead of stainless rivets (long enough to get their ‘blob’ inside
the mast, and not halfway in the hole, which destroys the laminate)
you can also drill and tap and use machine screws. Drill a tight
hole, then tap thread, and use minmal thickness 8mm screws (course
thread). The thicker the screw the better, because the thread has to
take the load, so the longer the tread the better. And use
locktite. Of course, the wider apart the holes the better, but I
think at least 1/2" between then is okay.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Bill Williams”
<escbill@…> wrote:

From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes
drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory
engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to
be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless
steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast.
Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to
catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this
is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten
hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are
pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the
damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…

Bill

[michel.capel]

Posted by michel.capel (michel.capel@…>)

The manufacturer of my CF main mast, Goetz Marine Technology,
mounted the wishbone padeyes on beefed up platforms with machine
screws without inserts in threaded holes. I’m pretty sure that they
knew what they were doing, since they gave a warranty of 10 years on
the mast.

But I agree, heavy rivets are best.


— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, <descalera1@…> wrote:

DO NOT USE SCREWS!

Bill is correct. The use of screws, even machine screws will
compromise a larger area of the laminate and encourage crack
propagation. Rivits were originally chosen because they caused the
least damage to the laminate. To reduce galvanic corrosion with the
carbon, the rivits were coated before installation. If screws must
be used, inserts should be epoxied into the laminate.

I would recommend consulting a composite engineer whenever
drilling holes in the high load areas from the step to well above
the gooseneck and around the hounds.

Dwight Escalera

---- “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:

In stead of stainless rivets (long enough to get their ‘blob’
inside
the mast, and not halfway in the hole, which destroys the
laminate)
you can also drill and tap and use machine screws. Drill a tight
hole, then tap thread, and use minmal thickness 8mm screws
(course
thread). The thicker the screw the better, because the thread
has to
take the load, so the longer the tread the better. And use
locktite. Of course, the wider apart the holes the better, but
I
think at least 1/2" between then is okay.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Bill Williams”
<escbill@> wrote:

From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new
holes
drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory
engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are
to
be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead
stainless
steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the
mast.
Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to
catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that
this
is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten
hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts
are
pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the
damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…

Bill

[sgaber]

Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)

If there is access, what about nuts. b

Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL

---- descalera1@… wrote:

DO NOolts and washers?
T USE SCREWS!

Bill is correct. The use of screws, even machine screws will compromise a
larger area of the laminate and encourage crack propagation. Rivits were
originally chosen because they caused the least damage to the laminate. To
reduce galvanic corrosion with the carbon, the rivits were coated before
installation. If screws must be used, inserts should be epoxied into the
laminate.

I would recommend consulting a composite engineer whenever drilling holes in
the high load areas from the step to well above the gooseneck and around the
hounds.

Dwight Escalera

---- “michel.capel” <michel.capel@…> wrote:

In stead of stainless rivets (long enough to get their ‘blob’ inside
the mast, and not halfway in the hole, which destroys the laminate)
you can also drill and tap and use machine screws. Drill a tight
hole, then tap thread, and use minmal thickness 8mm screws (course
thread). The thicker the screw the better, because the thread has to
take the load, so the longer the tread the better. And use
locktite. Of course, the wider apart the holes the better, but I
think at least 1/2" between then is okay.

— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Bill Williams”
<escbill@…> wrote:

From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes
drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory
engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to
be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless
steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast.
Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to
catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this
is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten
hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are
pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the
damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…

Bill

–

[Bob1]

Posted by Bob (rweeks6508@…>)
The pop rivits were covered with what?Bob On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:41 AM, descalera1@… wrote:DO NOT USE SCREWS! Bill is correct. The use of screws, even machine screws will compromise a larger area of the laminate and encourage crack propagation. Rivits were originally chosen because they caused the least damage to the laminate. To reduce galvanic corrosion with the carbon, the rivits were coated before installation. If screws must be used, inserts should be epoxied into the laminate. I would recommend consulting a composite engineer whenever drilling holes in the high load areas from the step to well above the gooseneck and around the hounds. Dwight Escalera ---- “michel.capel” < michel.capel@ yahoo.com> wrote: > In stead of stainless rivets (long enough to get their ‘blob’ inside > the mast, and not halfway in the hole, which destroys the laminate) > you can also drill and tap and use machine screws. Drill a tight > hole, then tap thread, and use minmal thickness 8mm screws (course > thread). The thicker the screw the better, because the thread has to > take the load, so the longer the tread the better. And use > locktite. Of course, the wider apart the holes the better, but I > think at least 1/2" between then is okay. > > > — In FreedomOwnersGroup@ yahoogroups. com, “Bill Williams” > <escbill@… > wrote: > > > > From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes > drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory > engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to > be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless > steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. > Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to > catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this > is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten > hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are > pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the > damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth… > > > > Bill > > > >

[Roger_L]

Posted by Roger L. (rogerlov@…>)

It’s pretty easy for an engineer to design mountings by drilling
holes and specifying rivits or bolts. In fact, it is so commonly
done that it can easily become a habit.

But I have to wonder about drilling holes in a composite mast
in order to mount steps. Mast steps are lightly loaded,
redundantly safe, and backed up by a safety line. They aren’t
constrained by material or mount design - in fact about all they
have to do is to fit hands&feet on one side and the mast contour
on the other…

All in all, it seems like an excellent chance for some
enterprising designer to develop a glued-on step system. The
automotive and aviation industries do a lot of composite
connections these days. It seems to me that any engineer
capable of designing a mast would not find it beyond their
capability to also design an an adhesively-mounted step for it.
Thanks, Roger