Posted by Randy (crawfordceramics@…>)
I want to install Mast Steps I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount. I need some expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or
manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!Thanks,Randy __________________Randy CrawfordFreedom F25"Slangevar" Chadwick Bay,Dunkirk,NY
Attachment: (image/pjpeg) Seadog Mast step.jpg [not stored]
Posted by Bill Williams (escbill@…>)
From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…
Bill
Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Randy,Aside from the fact that I detest mast steps due to their increased windage and for reasons of aesthetics, there is a greater concern which is safety! I’ve known many sailors with aluminum and stainless mast steps affixed to their aluminum masts. I’ve also had a Pacific Seacraft 31 with aluminum mast steps which were already installed when I purchased the boat. Several of my mast steps were very loose from corrosion to the point that I would not trust them with my full weight. My friends had the same experience. You never know - when you reach for one while climbing it may give way sending you plummeting to the deck.
As for carbon fiber masts, you can affix hardware to them, but the engineers recommend some beefing up in the areas where the hardware is mounted. The big, fat and round carbon masts present enough extra windage, I wouldn’t want to add to it any further.
With a Freedom 25 the mast height is not that high. A bosun’s chair with two halyards (additional one for safety) is all you need. Or, just the climbing gear such as “Top Climber” by ATN.
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Bill Williams <escbill@…> wrote:
From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…
Bill
– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
Posted by esfogel@… (esfogel@…)
I had a new carbon mast installed on my Nonsuch several years ago. When ordering
the mast, we were asked what hardwear we would be mounting on the mast, and
where it would be located. This is because they thicken the mast at those points
where they will drill a hole for a hardpoint attachment. At no other point on a
carbon mast should a hole be drilled after the mast is completed. As for adding
hardpoints to a mast after it is made, well I’m not sure it can be done.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…>
Randy,
Aside from the fact that I detest mast steps due to their increased windage
and for reasons of aesthetics, there is a greater concern which is safety!
I’ve known many sailors with aluminum and stainless mast steps affixed to
their aluminum masts. I’ve also had a Pacific Seacraft 31 with aluminum mast
steps which were already installed when I purchased the boat. Several of my
mast steps were very loose from corrosion to the point that I would not
trust them with my full weight. My friends had the same experience. You
never know - when you reach for one while climbing it may give way sending
you plummeting to the deck.As for carbon fiber masts, you can affix hardware to them, but the engineers
recommend some beefing up in the areas where the hardware is mounted. The
big, fat and round carbon masts present enough extra windage, I wouldn’t
want to add to it any further.With a Freedom 25 the mast height is not that high. A bosun’s chair with two
halyards (additional one for safety) is all you need. Or, just the climbing
gear such as “Top Climber” by ATN.On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Bill Williams <escbill@…> wrote:
From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes
drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers
signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used
when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to
be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of
introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast.
Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and
using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon
Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention
the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…Bill
–
Jay Glen ki6jtk
s/v Fantasy
Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch
San Francisco Bay Area
Randy,Aside from the fact that I detest mast steps due to their increased windage and for reasons of aesthetics, there is a greater concern which is safety! I’ve known many sailors with aluminum and stainless mast steps affixed to their aluminum masts. I’ve also had a Pacific Seacraft 31 with aluminum mast steps which were already installed when I purchased the boat. Several of my mast steps were very loose from corrosion to the point that I would not trust them with my full weight. My friends had the same experience. You never know - when you reach for one while climbing it may give way sending you plummeting to the deck.
As for carbon fiber masts, you can affix hardware to them, but the engineers recommend some beefing up in the areas where the hardware is mounted. The big, fat and round carbon masts present enough extra windage, I wouldn’t want to add to it any further.
With a Freedom 25 the mast height is not that high. A bosun’s chair with two halyards (additional one for safety) is all you need. Or, just the climbing gear such as “Top Climber” by ATN.
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Bill Williams <escbill@cox.net> wrote:
From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…
Bill
– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
\
Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled
counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and
purchased 16 mast steps to mount.
or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?
I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the
first time!
Thanks,
Randy
Randy,
With all due respect this sounds like the opening lines of a letter to
your insurance adjuster…
I have used about every way known to man to get up a mast but I’ve
never even for a moment considered using the fill the water weight at
the mast head with a long hose method. I’ve got my own version of the
Top Climber that I put together myself and this works well on small
boats. I find that at the top of a 70 foot mast I’m too tuckered out
to do much work once I get there but perhaps a younger man would be OK
with it. Now I use an assistant and we use a 28 volt Milwaukee right
angle drill with a winch drive attachment chucked into it. I have the
harness but almost always opt for the more comfy chair. I do rig a
prussic knot around the mast so that even if all else fails… I’m
still connected to that mast and I’m not coming down rapidly. This is
in addition to an extra halyard when available, rather than in lieu of.
Be safe my friend.
George
George
Posted by George Huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Oops. I forgot to summarize.
The level of complexity that you add to a system for going aloft needs
to add to the safety side, rather than giving more things to go wrong.
OK off my soap box…
George
Posted by slangevar48 (crawfordceramics@…>)
Good points Bill, that’s why I’m asking before I do any irreversible damage or create any higher threats to safety. Perhaps mast steps are only intended for metal and wooden masts. I didn’t consider the structural integrity issue before I got “such a deal” on these steps on Ebay- ahh the thrill of the auction!Thanks Bill
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Bill Williams” <escbill@…> wrote:>> From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast. Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…> > Bill>
Posted by Borelmfg (borelmfg@…>)
Randy,
you really, really don’t want to do this. Drilling that many holes in a carbon fiber mast is not a good ideal. Most mast steps are mounted on the sides of the mast. With CF masts that is the area of max tension/compression. On standard AL masts with rigging, the entire mast is mostly in compression. Also keep in mind that if you ever decide to sell the boat, this could be a deal breaker. I would not even consider buying a freedom with that kind of modification.
Regards,
Van
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:47 PM
Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] I want to install Mast Steps
I want to install Mast Steps
I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount. I need some expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!Thanks,Randy
__________________Randy CrawfordFreedom F25"Slangevar" Chadwick Bay,Dunkirk,NY
\
\
Posted by slangevar48 (crawfordceramics@…>)
Hi Jay, thanks for your remarks (and your 2 cents- I won’t be sending out the check until it gets to an even dollar) I appreciate that there would be some additional drag and your aesthetic sensibilities. I’m getting nearer to the point of ditching this project. If it is deemed by a carbon fiber mast engineer that this is feasable to do, I’ll make sure to lay in a layer of silicone caulk under the mounting plate and seal the surface with a couple coats of clear acrylic to help ward off corrosion. I’ve used a bosuns chair before and a climbing harness as well- I feel less secure in the chair, but the harness gets uncomfortable around my legs, so I thought the steps would take the weight off and give me a more stable platform to work from. I really appreciate your perspectives and trust them to guide me not to do the wrong thing.
Regards,
Randy
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Jay Glen” <svfantasy@…> wrote:>> Randy,> > Aside from the fact that I detest mast steps due to their increased windage> and for reasons of aesthetics, there is a greater concern which is safety!> I’ve known many sailors with aluminum and stainless mast steps affixed to> their aluminum masts. I’ve also had a Pacific Seacraft 31 with aluminum mast> steps which were already installed when I purchased the boat. Several of my> mast steps were very loose from corrosion to the point that I would not> trust them with my full weight. My friends had the same experience. You> never know - when you reach for one while climbing it may give way sending> you plummeting to the deck.> > As for carbon fiber masts, you can affix hardware to them, but the engineers> recommend some beefing up in the areas where the hardware is mounted. The> big, fat and round carbon masts present enough extra windage, I wouldn’t> want to add to it any further.> > With a Freedom 25 the mast height is not that high. A bosun’s chair with two> halyards (additional one for safety) is all you need. Or, just the climbing> gear such as “Top Climber” by ATN.> > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Bill Williams escbill@… wrote:> > > From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes> > drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers> > signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used> > when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to> > be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of> > introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast.> > Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and> > using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon> > Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention> > the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…> >> > Bill> > > >> > > > – > Jay Glen ki6jtk> s/v Fantasy> Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch> San Francisco Bay Area>
Posted by slangevar48 (crawfordceramics@…>)
Thanks for that insight!
I was wondering about if it was even possible to “beef up the mast” at the attachment points- Oh boy- Things are always more complex that they seem at first. I’m going to start compliling a list of alternative applications for mast step hardware : 1.) sell on ebay for a profit- or loss, 2.) Mount on a building wall for accessing areas where a regular ladder is impractical. 3.) Attach to a motor home for a streamlined route to the roof. 4. ) mount under a bedroom window for an emergency eggress…
Randy
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, esfogel@… wrote:>> I had a new carbon mast installed on my Nonsuch several years ago. When ordering the mast, we were asked what hardwear we would be mounting on the mast, and where it would be located. This is because they thicken the mast at those points where they will drill a hole for a hardpoint attachment. At no other point on a carbon mast should a hole be drilled after the mast is completed. As for adding hardpoints to a mast after it is made, well I’m not sure it can be done.> > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------> From: “Jay Glen” svfantasy@…> > Randy,> > > > Aside from the fact that I detest mast steps due to their increased windage> > and for reasons of aesthetics, there is a greater concern which is safety!> > I’ve known many sailors with aluminum and stainless mast steps affixed to> > their aluminum masts. I’ve also had a Pacific Seacraft 31 with aluminum mast> > steps which were already installed when I purchased the boat. Several of my> > mast steps were very loose from corrosion to the point that I would not> > trust them with my full weight. My friends had the same experience. You> > never know - when you reach for one while climbing it may give way sending> > you plummeting to the deck.> > > > As for carbon fiber masts, you can affix hardware to them, but the engineers> > recommend some beefing up in the areas where the hardware is mounted. The> > big, fat and round carbon masts present enough extra windage, I wouldn’t> > want to add to it any further.> > > > With a Freedom 25 the mast height is not that high. A bosun’s chair with two> > halyards (additional one for safety) is all you need. Or, just the climbing> > gear such as “Top Climber” by ATN.> > > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Bill Williams escbill@… wrote:> > > > > From everything I’ve read or heard, there should be NO new holes> > > drilled in a carbon fiber glass mast without one of the factory engineers> > > signing off on where and how large they are. There are to be NO screws used> > > when such holes are drilled, but instead stainless steel pop rivets are to> > > be used to fasten any hardware to the mast. Reason being the risk of> > > introducing a crack that could lead to catastrophic failure of the mast.> > > Unless someone can prove that this is a myth and that drilling holes and> > > using screws to fasten hardware to the mast, I would not touch it. Carbon> > > Fiber masts are pretty hard to come by and do not come cheap, not to mention> > > the damage if one should come down. Just my two cents worth…> > >> > > Bill> > > > > >> > > > > > > > – > > Jay Glen ki6jtk> > s/v Fantasy> > Freedom 40 Cat-Ketch> > San Francisco Bay Area>
Posted by slangevar48 (crawfordceramics@…>)
Thanks Van and all of you for the insight,
the Project is now officially scrapped!
So… Anybody interested in an awesome discount on New, Stainless mast step hardware?
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Borelmfg” <borelmfg@…> wrote:>> Randy,> > you really, really don’t want to do this. Drilling that many holes in a carbon fiber mast is not a good ideal. Most mast steps are mounted on the sides of the mast. With CF masts that is the area of max tension/compression. On standard AL masts with rigging, the entire mast is mostly in compression. Also keep in mind that if you ever decide to sell the boat, this could be a deal breaker. I would not even consider buying a freedom with that kind of modification. > > > Regards, > > Van> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randy > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:47 PM> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] I want to install Mast Steps> > > > I want to install Mast Steps > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount. > I need some expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?> I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!> Thanks,> Randy> __________________> Randy Crawford> Freedom F25> “Slangevar” > > Chadwick Bay,> Dunkirk,NY > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Randy,If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while doing your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap this idea.
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:11 AM, slangevar48 <crawfordceramics@…> wrote:
Thanks Van and all of you for the insight,
the Project is now officially scrapped!
So… Anybody interested in an awesome discount on New, Stainless mast step hardware?
— In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Borelmfg” <borelmfg@…> wrote:
Randy,> > you really, really don’t want to do this. Drilling that many holes in a carbon fiber mast is not a good ideal. Most mast steps are mounted on the sides of the mast. With CF masts that is the area of max tension/compression. On standard AL masts with rigging, the entire mast is mostly in compression. Also keep in mind that if you ever decide to sell the boat, this could be a deal breaker. I would not even consider buying a freedom with that kind of modification.
Regards, > > Van> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randy > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:47 PM> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] I want to install Mast Steps> > > > I want to install Mast Steps > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount.
I need some expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?
I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!> Thanks,> Randy> __________________> Randy Crawford> Freedom F25> “Slangevar” >
Chadwick Bay,> Dunkirk,NY > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
Posted by Lola Jackson (lolaltd@…>)
Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote: Randy,If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at equal height just below the top to provide a place
to stand on while doing your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap this idea. On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:11 AM, slangevar48 <crawfordceramics@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks Van and all of you for the insight, the Project is now officially scrapped! So… Anybody interested in an awesome discount on New, Stainless
mast step hardware? — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Borelmfg” <borelmfg@…> wrote: >> Randy,> > you really, really don’t want to do this. Drilling that many holes in a carbon fiber mast is not a good ideal. Most mast steps are mounted on the sides of the mast. With CF masts that is the area of max tension/compression. On standard AL masts with rigging, the entire mast is mostly in compression. Also keep in mind that if you ever decide to sell the boat, this could be a deal breaker. I would not even consider buying a freedom with that kind of modification. > > > Regards, > > Van> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randy > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:47 PM> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] I want to install Mast Steps> > > > I want to install Mast Steps > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount. > I need some
expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension? > I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!> Thanks,> Randy> __________________> Randy Crawford> Freedom F25> “Slangevar” > > Chadwick Bay,> Dunkirk,NY > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > – Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Posted by Jay Glen (svfantasy@…>)
Hi Lola,I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to rat-lines, which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem with using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile…
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@…> wrote:
Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30
Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
Randy,If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at equal height just below the top to provide a place
to stand on while doing your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap this idea.
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 7:11 AM, slangevar48 <crawfordceramics@…> wrote:
Thanks Van and all of you for the insight, the Project is now officially scrapped!
So… Anybody interested in an awesome discount on New, Stainless
mast step hardware? — In FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com, “Borelmfg” <borelmfg@…> wrote:
Randy,> > you really, really don’t want to do this. Drilling that many holes in a carbon fiber mast is not a good ideal. Most mast steps are mounted on the sides of the mast. With CF masts that is the area of max tension/compression. On standard AL masts with rigging, the entire mast is mostly in compression. Also keep in mind that if you ever decide to sell the boat, this could be a deal breaker. I would not even consider buying a freedom with that kind of modification.
Regards, > > Van> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randy > To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:47 PM> Subject: [FreedomOwnersGroup] I want to install Mast Steps> > > > I want to install Mast Steps > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount.
I need some
expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?
I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!> Thanks,> Randy> __________________> Randy Crawford> Freedom F25> “Slangevar” >
Chadwick Bay,> Dunkirk,NY > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >
– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
– Jay Glen ki6jtks/v FantasyFreedom 40 Cat-KetchSan Francisco Bay Area
Posted by Lola Jackson (lolaltd@…>)
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: I want to install Mast Steps Hi Lola,I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to rat-lines, which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were used to climb aloft back in the days of old
sailing ships. The problem with using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile… On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo. com> wrote: Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30Randy <crawfordceramics@…> wrote: I want to install Mast Steps I found last season that I wanted to do some maintenance on the masthead, like replace the light, adjust the wind indicator, lube the sail track and sheaves. I was detered from the task do to inexperience and lack additional of dock muscle. I’ve since read up on the subject and found how to do this with one assistant and even solo. I’ve aquired a climbing harness, a large bag to create a water filled counter balance, a climbing strap, a
climbing ascender/decender and purchased 16 mast steps to mount. I need some expertise on installing the steps (the steps are stainless steel Seadogs and my mast is a TP carbon fiber) as I have no reference or manual. My questions: how far to space them? do they alternate side to side or are they matched up tandem? any special adhesives or screw mount applications? predrill the holes? how long of a screw? Is there any special maintenance or spring calibration necessary on the steps? I dont even know the total height of the mast. Any current or former Freedom 25 owners out there who may know that dimension?I could really use your seasoned inputs so I can do it right the first time!Thanks,Randy __________________Randy CrawfordFreedom F25"Slangevar" Chadwick Bay,Dunkirk,NY
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Posted by sgaber@…> (sgaber@…>)
That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should have a
halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck to tie
it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be held at
any point so you don’t need anothe hand.
A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century.
Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL
---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
Hi Lola,
I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast
steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps
at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due
to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to rat-lines,
which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were
used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem with
using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go
aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile…On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@…> wrote:
Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats
and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an
angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can
tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30Jay Glen <svfantasy@…> wrote:
Randy,
If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable
secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at
equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while doing
your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least
you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair
or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap
this idea.
Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Alternatively you can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big loop of 1 inch tube strap and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are going to encounter spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on above the obstacle before you unhook from below. It does add a step to your ascent if you are self ascending or you have to manage it while being hoisted aloft. But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing in this case. A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as a great way to avoid getting into the Darwin awards. :)Georgesgaber@… wrote: That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should have a halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck to tie it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be held at any point so you don’t need anothe hand. A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century. Steve Gaber Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77 Oldsmar, FL ---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Lola, > > I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast > steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps > at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due > to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to rat-lines,
which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were > used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem with > using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go > aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile… > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats > > and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an > > angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can > > tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30 > > > > > > Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Randy, > > > > If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable > > secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at > > equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while doing > > your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least > > you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair > > or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap > > this idea. > > >
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Posted by Alan Kusinitz (akusinitz@…>)
Just a comment on complexity. I use an ATN
Top climber (www.atninc.com). It seems
quite safe and you can go up on your own.
The first time I used it I decided to add
further redundancy/complexity. On a separate line I attached one of those “climbers
gadgets” that you have to release to slide down the rope and that was
hooked to the ATN as well.
Going up was no problem. On the way down I
got myself into a situation where the mechanism on the ATN had tension on it
(could not be released) and there was also tension on the safety I set up (I
forgot to release it before lowering the next stage on the ATN).
No chance of falling but I was near the
top of the mast and it was early evening. I actually wondered if I’d be
spending the night.
Eventually I managed to create slack so I
could get down but it was quite a struggle.
In this case the complexity and a user
error combined.
Alan F-33 1982 SEAPR
From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:22
AM
To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup]
Re: I want to install Mast Steps
Alternatively
you can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big loop of 1 inch tube
strap and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are going to encounter
spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on above the obstacle
before you unhook from below. It does add a step to your ascent if you
are self ascending or you have to manage it while being hoisted aloft.
But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing in this case.
A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as a great way to
avoid getting into the Darwin
awards. 
George
sgaber@tampabay.rr.com
wrote:
That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should
have a halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck
to tie it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be
held at any point so you don’t need anothe hand.
A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century.
Steve Gaber
Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77
Oldsmar, FL
---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Lola,
I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast
steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps
at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail
due
to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to
rat-lines,
which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They
were
used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem
with
using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go
aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile…On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats
and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an
angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more
experienced can
tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the
time…LolaF30Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com>
wrote:Randy,
If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a
stable
secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast
steps at
equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while
doing
your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but
at least
you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the
chair
or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to
scrap
this idea.
\
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.
\
Posted by george huffman (thatboatguy2@…>)
Hey Alan,A grigri, (or other device like it) could be a good added safety device if you attach it such that it can’t get out of your reach. The Top Climber is nice but I’ve set my jumars up in such a way that I’m more like stair climbing than inch worming my way up the mast. I’ve learned that it’s not even enough to focus on the task at hand and think every move through before making it (not my forte) but that I need to think the entire process through from start to finish. I too once did the nautical equivelant of painting myself into a corner. Maybe we should make lapel pins… I was anchored out near Poquoson Va. for a couple weeks doing boat mainenance and letting my little retirement check catch up with my budget before shoving off for Block Island and points north. I needed to replace the antenna for the VHF that was located on my Missen Mast (Allied Princess). I took a very long line that I always have onboard and
rigged it through a set of vang blocks, hoisted that aloft and simply pulled myself aloft. I was using the Prussic Knot safety method I’ve described before. I finished the antenna install about the time that I could no longer feel anything in my legs from blood circulation loss. When I tried to lower myself I found that the tail end of the line had fouled itself on deck hardware! There was very little boat traffic in my little corner of Va. and whenever I tried to hollar and wave someone over they would point and swerve… away! They thought I was yelling for wake abatement. I really didn’t feel safe tring to climb down with no feeling in my legs and was wondering if I would ever walk the earth again. At last I got the tail end of that line free by laboriously whipping it around from aloft. heh heh Live and learn eh? So your point concerning compelxity is well taken Alan. GeorgeAlan
Kusinitz <akusinitz@…> wrote: Just a comment on complexity. I use an ATN Top climber (www.atninc.com). It seems quite safe and you can go up on your own. The first time I used it I decided to
add further redundancy/complexity. On a separate line I attached one of those “climbers gadgets” that you have to release to slide down the rope and that was hooked to the ATN as well. Going up was no problem. On the way down I got myself into a situation where the mechanism on the ATN had tension on it (could not be released) and there was also tension on the safety I set up (I forgot to release it before lowering the next stage on the ATN). No chance of falling but I was near the top of the mast and it was early evening. I actually wondered if I’d be spending the night. Eventually I managed to create slack so I could get down but it was quite a struggle. In this case the complexity and a user error combined. Alan F-33 1982 SEAPR From: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of george huffman Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:22 AM To: FreedomOwnersGroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FreedomOwnersGroup] Re: I want to install Mast Steps Alternatively you can make up a prussic knot around the mast with a big loop of 1 inch tube strap and carabiner to your harness/chair. If you are going to encounter spreaders you will need two of these so you can hook on above the obstacle before you unhook from below. It does add a step to your ascent if you are self ascending or you have to manage it while being hoisted aloft. But remember, complexity that add’s safety is a good thing in this case. A safety line of some sort is just good protocal as well as a great way to avoid getting into the Darwin awards. George sgaber@tampabay.rr.com wrote: That’s why any time you go up a mast, even with mast steps, you should have a halyard attached to a harness or a busun’s chair, with somebody on deck to tie it off. Or use one of those climber’s gadgets that alllow the line to be held at any point so you don’t need anothe hand. A safety line is or should n\be mandatory. This ain’t the 19th Century. Steve Gaber Sanderling, 1967 C-31 #77 Oldsmar, FL ---- Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Lola, > > I think you have mistaken me for Randy who inquired about attaching mast > steps to his carbon fiber mast. I advised against it, or, using mast steps > at all. They can be very dangerous as you never know when they will fail due > to corrosion or poor installation. I believe you are referring to
rat-lines, > which are ropes strung between the lower shrouds on small vessels. They were > used to climb aloft back in the days of old sailing ships. The problem with > using them today is excessive windage and aesthetics. The safest way to go > aloft? Have someone else go up for you!! Smile… > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Lola Jackson <lolaltd@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Hi Jay, Have you thought of a rope ladder. I see then on other boats > > and they look neat I think. The ones I mean seem to come in at an > > angle…I’m sure one of the other sailors here that are more experienced can > > tell you what I mean. They look like you leave it up all the time…LolaF30 > > > > > > Jay Glen <svfantasy@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >
Randy, > > > > If you had an aluminum mast and wanted to provide yourself with a stable > > secure working platform, I would recommend just installing two mast steps at > > equal height just below the top to provide a place to stand on while doing > > your work aloft. You would still have to be hoisted in a chair, but at least > > you would have a place to stand to help relieve the discomfort of the chair > > or harness. But, you have carbon fiber, so I’m glad you decided to scrap > > this idea. > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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Posted by Weaver Roger (rogerweav@…>)
Randy, I have been monitoring the web site and would like to offer a solution
I found a few years (10+) ago.
I would like to suggest taking a look at this web site.
www.bestmarineimports.com phone # 888-669-0633 in Ft Lauderdale, FL. Click on
Mastlifts.
Several years ago I did a bit of single handed sailing in the great lakes and
became concerned if a problem developed and I needed to get to the top of the
mast. How do you do this if your all alone? I found this web site and the
Masterlift 1001 for a safe single handed way to get to the top of the mast
without steps or slings.
Eliminate the mast steps, rope ladders, counter weight rigging, etc. Look at
the Mastlift 1001 (for masts up to 45 ft).
Its difficult to explain how it works however I will try to describe it.
Generally its a windlass/hoist on one side with a coiled up wire load line
(50’)and a “endless loop” line you pull yourself up by on the other. There is a
double cam safety locking device in the gear mech that permits you to stop
safely at different heights to work. ie; I wanted to replace my foredeck light
(bulb) before I reached port. I attached my Mastlift to my main halyard raised
it to top of mast as the load line uncoiled on deck. Shackled a bosun’s chair
to the thimble of the load line and pulling on the continuous loop line until I
reached the height of the foredeck light. The system has a reduction rate of
1:10 so it requires very little effort for hoisting. To decend, you simply
pull on the opposite side of the endless loop line.
System can also be used as a hoist attached to end of boom for hauling dingy,
outboard motors, injured person, etc.
This system is a bit pricey however peace of mine and having a backup made it
reasonable to me.
Also I agree with our fellow Freedom owners drilling holes in your mast is a
bad idea. I once ask Freedom how to install a second mast step at the base of
the mast to aid in attaching the sail cover. Their recommendation was to
install step at 180 degrees at least 12" above the first using same size pop ss
rivets. Mostly what I heard were reasons not to drill additional holes in
carbon fiber mast and elected to not to proceed.
Regards,
Roger Weaver 30’ Hull 81
Suttons Bay, Michigan
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